I am baffled, please explain

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pallas_Athene
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As usual. if it does not support you, it is irrelevant or plain wrong.
Hey, what can I say? When you’re wrong, you’re wrong. 🤷
Does the “new, improved” encyclopedia explicitly assert that God does NOT know the counterfactuals?
The “old” version doesn’t state that God knows counterfactuals.
And how come that the official teaching changes in a few decades?
That’s the whole point – it doesn’t. 😉
Were the authors of the old version not guided by the holy spirit in the case of faith and morals?
Apples and oranges. The Magisterium - that is, the teaching authority of the Church (the pope and the bishops in union with him) - didn’t write the Catholic Encyclopedia. Therefore, we can’t cite the protection of infallibility for this document, as that only applies to the Magisterium, and only in their own pronouncements.
There is absolutely no difference.
There’s every difference in the world! However, if you’re not seeing the distinction, then it’s not surprising that you’re not seeing the fact that middle knowledge is not a doctrinal teaching of the Church.
If you have access to a BETTER “official” definition of omniscience, provide it.
If I get a chance, I’ll look around for one. To be fair, though, we were discussing your definition and the reasons that it’s deficient. 🤷
Do you know the phrase: “SSDD”?
Yes; every time I come to this thread, I’m faced with it. 😉
  1. God’s knowledge is not contingent upon our actions.
  2. Our actions are not contingent upon God’s knowledge.
  3. Yet there is a one-to-one correspondence between our actions and God’s knowledge.
How is that possible?
It’s sloppily phrased. Let’s tighten it up a bit:
  1. God’s foreknowledge is not contingent upon our actions (in time).
  2. Our actions in time are not determined by God’s foreknowledge.
  3. There is a one-to-one correspondence between our (freely chosen) actions and God’s foreknowledge of them. However, this correspondence is not determinative.
Your ‘inconsistency’ goes away when you phrase the statements more precisely.
Either God’s knowledge causes our actions, or our actions cause God’s knowledge, or some “third party” causes both of them, or they are independent and as such we have an astronomical “coincidence”. I guess there is a fifth option… the usual one: “it is a mystery!”. But this fifth option is simply irrational.
Nah… there’s a sixth option: the correspondence between God’s foreknowledge and our freely-willed actions is not a causal relationship. They’re related, but not in a cause-and-effect way.
 
Bring your kids up right, Tony (and I have no reason to believe you haven’t), then there won’t be a problem.
Well, Bradski, here is the problem. “Right” meaning what exactly? Since children, according to you, are incapable of critical thought then bringing them up “right” means teaching them things that they do not have the wherewithal to confirm or deny, that would amount to “brainwashing” – at least in PA’s understanding of the term.

It would seem that children shouldn’t be taught anything of substance until they are capable of fully assessing for themselves whether what is being foisted on them is “right” or not – mid to late twenties, according to your studies*.

Until then, apparently, they should be kept in a sound and light proof chamber being fed and kept alive so as not to be contaminated in their thinking by what others might inadvertently foist on them in our exuberance to share what has hitherto been assented to by thought-capable humans.

*Although the critical thinking community and I, from personal experience, disagree with you.
criticalthinking.org/pages/k-3-instruction-strategies/1143
 
Apples and oranges. The Magisterium - that is, the teaching authority of the Church (the pope and the bishops in union with him) - didn’t write the Catholic Encyclopedia.
Well, well. Whoever actually penned it, did it according to their best understanding. If the “magisterium” did not agree with it, they could have corrected the writers. After all it is pretty significant writ.
There’s every difference in the world!
In your previous post you said that the difference is miniscule, but important. Can’t you make up your mind?
However, if you’re not seeing the distinction, then it’s not surprising that you’re not seeing the fact that middle knowledge is not a doctrinal teaching of the Church.
And the merry-go-round starts again. There is no searchable doctrinal teaching.
If I get a chance, I’ll look around for one. To be fair, though, we were discussing your definition and the reasons that it’s deficient. 🤷
Oh well. Come back when you find it. (Maybe I will live long enough to see it.) You have no argument against my definition, which happens to be backed up by the Apologist in the Ask the Apologist forum in this thread: .right here…. And that is as “official” as I could find.

“Omniscience is the knowledge of everything, past, present and future, actual or possible.” And that includes the counterfactuals. The only thing that God cannot know is what cannot happen - due to logical inconsistency. God cannot know what exists to the north from the North Pole. God cannot know the color of the eyes of a married bachelor. But God can know what kind of life Joe would lead IF he would be created, and as such God could choose to create him or not. That is the point in a nutshell, what even a nutcase could understand. (And you are not a nutcase… hmmm… hopefully).
It’s sloppily phrased. Let’s tighten it up a bit:
  1. God’s foreknowledge is not contingent upon our actions (in time).
  2. Our actions in time are not determined by God’s foreknowledge.
  3. There is a one-to-one correspondence between our (freely chosen) actions and God’s foreknowledge of them. However, this correspondence is not determinative.
Your ‘inconsistency’ goes away when you phrase the statements more precisely.
  1. There is no difference between God’s “knowledge” and “foreknowledge”. (See God’s simplicity)
  2. Our actions are all in time.
  3. So they are independent. How come that there is a one-to-one correspondence? Magic? Coincidence?
Nah… there’s a sixth option: the correspondence between God’s foreknowledge and our freely-willed actions is not a causal relationship. They’re related, but not in a cause-and-effect way.
What kind of a "relationship is it, then? In real life there are only three types of relationships: 1) causal relationship, 2) stochastic relationship and 3) independent variables (no relationship). When there is a causal relationship, the coefficient is “one”. When we have independent variables, the coefficient is “zero”. When there is a stochastic relationship, the coefficient is between zero and one - NOT inclusive. That is all, there is no “sixth option”. At best you can stick with “it’s a mystery” - which is NOT a valid option either.
 
Well, well. Whoever actually penned it, did it according to their best understanding. If the “magisterium” did not agree with it, they could have corrected the writers. After all it is pretty significant writ.
The Magisterium isn’t in the business of correcting every statement made by Catholics. It’s in the business of defining what the Catholic Church teaches. If you want to set up the Catholic Encyclopedia as the definitive source of Catholic doctrine… you’ll be on your own.
In your previous post you said that the difference is miniscule, but important. Can’t you make up your mind?
Subtle, not miniscule. If even that distinction is lost on you, then the deep end of the theological pool might be a bit too much for you to attempt… 🤷
And the merry-go-round starts again.
I know. It’s pretty frustrating when we keep telling you the same thing over and over, but you fail to recognize what we’re saying.
There is no searchable doctrinal teaching.
There are many official sources of doctrine. The Catholic Encyclopedia isn’t one of them. It’s even worse in this case – you’re taking the CE and not only treating it as doctrine, but also misinterpreting what it says! Oh, the humanity…
Oh well. Come back when you find it.
Nice try. You made an assertion; we refuted it; now you seem to be saying that, unless we provide our own assertion, yours must be accepted as valid. Debate much?
You have no argument against my definition, which happens to be backed up by the Apologist in the Ask the Apologist forum in this thread: right here…… And that is as “official” as I could find.
Your link doesn’t work.

In any case, I found the thread. He only mentions the same categories we’ve talked about: ‘actual’ and ‘possible’. He doesn’t say that ‘counterfactuals’ are part of God’s existence. Really, now – how often do we have to ask you to demonstrate (doctrinally) that counterfactuals are part of God’s omniscience before you give up and admit that you’re unable to do so? This. Is. Becoming. Tedious. :sad_yes:
“Omniscience is the knowledge of everything, past, present and future, actual or possible.” And that includes the counterfactuals.
That’s why the quote doesn’t say ‘including counterfactuals’, right? :rolleyes:
The only thing that God cannot know is what cannot happen - due to logical inconsistency.
I’m sure God’s really happy to know that you’re there to define what He can and cannot do. Wow – what a relief! 😉
But God can know what kind of life Joe would lead IF he would be created, and as such God could choose to create him or not. That is the point in a nutshell, what even a nutcase could understand. (And you are not a nutcase… hmmm… hopefully).
Sticks and stones. Nice debating technique.

In any case, it’s ironic that you’re arguing for God’s capabilities, and I’m arguing against your assertions. LOL!
  1. So they are independent. How come that there is a one-to-one correspondence? Magic? Coincidence?
Nope – ‘free will’.
What kind of a "relationship is it, then? In real life there are only three types of relationships
Thank goodness you’re finally coming around! Yes, that’s right: we’re not talking about the limitations of the universe – that is, what you consider ‘real life’ – but rather, about the conjunction of the created universe and the uncreated God! Thank goodness you’re realizing the limitations of the domain in which your arguments exist!
 
I said the exact opposite. It is your problem that you did not understand it.
So what can we learn from this?
When one tells people what they believe, they are most likely to not understand what one is saying.
It is better to listen and share one’s own beliefs.
 
I said the exact opposite. It is your problem that you did not understand it.
You said it’s NOT our choice to believe or not to believe?

Really? 😃

We are Christians because we are brainwashed?
You are an atheist because you are brainwashed?

Okey dokey.

I stand by my statement, however, which seems to be what most folks who rely on their intellect assert: it is our choice to believe or not to believe.

You keep on asserting that you have no choice.

It makes your statements here, though, defending your positions rather amusing, then, if you had no choice in your atheism.
 
You agree with me that we choose to believe or choose not to believe.
I said the exact opposite. It is your problem that you did not understand it.
😃 😃 😃

I would just like to make it clear to all here that Pallas Athene is asserting “I do not believe we choose to believe or choose not to believe”.

He is an atheist (??)

According to his assertion, he did not choose this.
 
I would just like to make it clear to all here that Pallas Athene is asserting “I do not believe we choose to believe or choose not to believe”.
You are getting rather tiring in your obtuse behavior. Do you even KNOW what does “choice” mean? There was a time in my life, when I was a believer, but I did not decide to lose my faith and become an atheist (and I already explained this to you). Beliefs are not under volitional control. I hope to see you when you understand this. But not sooner.
 
According to his assertion, he did not choose this.
No. Nether did I. Neither did you consciously choose to be a Christian.

Children believe in Santa Claus and fairies and animals two by two because they haven’t the ability and they haven’t the experience to critically question what they are being told. It’s an entirely natural state of affairs and surely not one that could seriously be questioned. As an addendum to that, they may not have, as they grow older, the maturity to question authority. But all said and done, they will accept what they are told as facts.

They therefore believe what they are told. And that is a critical step in the process. They accept the facts and THEREFORE believe. There is no choice in believing. It happens automatically when you accept what you are being told as being true.

That’s why critical thinking is crucial in a child’s education. It doesn’t come easily. It comes quite late (maybe not as late as 30 which that link I gave suggested) so it should be taught as early as possible. Hence the excellent material to which Peter linked.

Incidentally, Peter. You are yet again misrepresenting what I have said.
Although the critical thinking community and I, from personal experience, disagree with you.
criticalthinking.org/pages/k-3-instruction-strategies/1143
At no point have I said that children should not be taught and encouraged to use critical thinking. In fact, my position is just the opposite. This is becoming tiresome. Perhaps you could correct your statement. And I am still waiting for you to correct the earlier one. Is there a problem in you doing either?

And maybe the term brainwashing is not one that’s conducive to a successful conversation. There is no doubt that children accept what they are told and that, obviously, they are going to be told about Christianity if they are brought up in a Christian household. Or any other religion or any other set of beliefs that their parents hold.

It’s not a problem as long as they are encouraged to question those beliefs later on. They will either strengthen their belief in what they have been told, or they will lose it. Either way, it’s a win for critical thinking.
 
The Magisterium isn’t in the business of correcting every statement made by Catholics.
This is not just “any” statement. It is the Encyclopedia. Read it: “The Encyclopedia bears the imprimatur of the Most Reverend Archbishop under whose jurisdiction it is published.” And also: “The Catholic Encyclopedia, as its name implies, proposes to give its readers full and authoritative information on the entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine.” And since the doctrine - according to you never changed, the edition is exactly as valid as it was when first published.
Nice try. You made an assertion; we refuted it; now you seem to be saying that, unless we provide our own assertion, yours must be accepted as valid. Debate much?
No. You did not refute anything, you simply declared that I was in error. But forgot to substantiate what the error was.
In any case, I found the thread. He only mentions the same categories we’ve talked about: ‘actual’ and ‘possible’. He doesn’t say that ‘counterfactuals’ are part of God’s existence. Really, now – how often do we have to ask you to demonstrate (doctrinally) that counterfactuals are part of God’s omniscience before you give up and admit that you’re unable to do so? This. Is. Becoming. Tedious.
Yes. Very tedious. Do you even know what a counterfactual is? Example: “what would Joe do if he were created with these parameters? Or what would Joe do if he were created with different parameters?” Or: “what would be the ramifications if Joe would not be created at all?”.

A hypothetical state of affairs, which may or may not become actual. And if God would not KNOW that, he would not be “omniscient”.
Nope – ‘free will’.
The question is how can God’s “knowledge” of what has not happened yet be reconciled with “free will”?
Thank goodness you’re finally coming around! Yes, that’s right: we’re not talking about the limitations of the universe – that is, what you consider ‘real life’ – but rather, about the conjunction of the created universe and the uncreated God! Thank goodness you’re realizing the limitations of the domain in which your arguments exist!
Ah, so the same-old nonsense is coming up again. As you (and others) said: “You are perfectly right in the domain of the atheists, but not when God is being examined”. (or words to that affect). Well, buddy, either God is “logical and rational” according to HUMAN terms, or he is illogical and irrational - period. There is no “divine logic” or “divine reason”. There is only “logic” and “reason”.

As a final addition, I will reiterate what I said: "God’s omniscience allows him to foresee the actions of Joe and based upon what he sees, he is in the position of deciding whether to create Joe or not. If he sees a “good” guy, he can go ahead and create him, if he sees that Joe will sin, he can choose not to create Joe. This is the way to ensure total free will, and yet to create a world without “sin”. Case definitely closed.
 
😃 😃 😃

I would just like to make it clear to all here that Pallas Athene is asserting “I do not believe we choose to believe or choose not to believe”.

He is an atheist (??)

According to his assertion, he did not choose this.
Those who cannot choose what to (dis)believe are obviously not responsible for any of their conclusions… 😉
 
Those who cannot choose what to (dis)believe are obviously not responsible for any of their conclusions… 😉
Of course that is to be expected where biological machines are concerned. We have to accept our limitations. don’t we? Que Será, Será! On the other hand it’s good fun to pretend we are rational. It helps to while away the time before we meet our inevitable doom…:frighten:
 
That’s why critical thinking is crucial in a child’s education. It doesn’t come easily. It comes quite late (maybe not as late as 30 which that link I gave suggested) so it should be taught as early as possible. Hence the excellent material to which Peter linked.

Incidentally, Peter. You are yet again misrepresenting what I have said.
I am not clear that it is so much a case of me misrepresenting what you said or more one of demonstrating that what you said is wide open to all kinds of interpretation.

You said…
In regard to children’s cognitive abilities, it is common knowledge that these do not develop until quite late. In fact, there is a lot of readily available information that says that we do not fully develop those abilities until late in our twenties:
That would appear to mean children are not capable of critical thinking at all until “quite late,” which is what you imply by stating they do not develop “cognitive abilities” until “quite late.” Which means what exactly? Quite late in childhood? As teenagers? Not fully until late twenties, apparently.

Furthermore, you make the startling claim (below) that “…children do accept what you tell them…” without question because, apparently they “…are not capable of working out what is dangerous and what isn’t.” This would seem to imply that all children - of whatever ages are included in the stage of development commonly called “childhood” - are incapable of “working out what is dangerous” BECAUSE they, minimally, lack relevant experiences, but also because they are incapable of critical thinking, no?

Yet, contrary to your own point, you seem to imply that children - being acutely aware of their own lack of experiences - are, in fact, making a critical assessment that adult experiences are - on the whole - a more reliable gauge for “what is dangerous” than their own limited breadth of experiences. THAT would be demonstrating profound insight and a highly astute critical judgement into the idea of “what is dangerous” than you are giving them credit for. You’ve just undermined your own argument by using that example.
There is no doubt that children do accept what you tell them as soon as they are able to understand what you are telling them. Anyone who has had children knows this. And there’s a very good reason for it. They are not capable of working out what is dangerous and what isn’t. You have to tell them, don’t touch that, don’t go there or you will get hurt.
Well this is not clearly true. I have thirty years of experience working with children as young as 5-6 years and have raised three of my own. They are quite capable of working out what is dangerous.

As an example, I remember presenting fire safety to a grade two class and they clearly understood what is required for fire to burn (oxygen, fuel, heat) and they (95% of them) could, just as clearly, explicate the danger of fire when it comes upon a generous supply of wood, furniture, and assorted other materials in a typical house to fuel it. They also understood that human bodies aren’t very much different than trees or wood when exposed to intense heat.

Now you may have a different definition of “children” than I do, but my definition is ‘human beings spanning the ages of 3 to 12 years.’ “Quite late,” would mean at 10+ years, which simply isn’t a tenable claim given that the education curricula from most jurisdictions presuppose that the capacity for critical thinking is quite functional from early childhood, which is why early childhood education from kindergarten on includes “critical thinking” skill development and the site I referenced promotes critical thinking activities from that age on.

On the most generous reading of your post, what you seem to imply is that children do not have the experience necessary to populate their critical thinking with factually correct premises from which to draw appropriate conclusions. Perhaps this is true, but that is far from claiming they are incapable of critical thinking, just that they lack the necessary experience to come up with realistic conclusions. And, in fact, demonstrates that children aware of their own dearth of experiences are quite reasonably relying upon adults to provide a more complete data set from which to make better critical judgements.

Hint: You claimed that “children’s cognitive abilities” … “do not develop until quite late” and "not fully …until late in our twenties.” Your own example refutes this claim.

I suggest you be more concise and exacting on making claims and we won’t have the problems we do with susceptibility to the wide range of interpretations which you call misrepresentation.

Foucault’s point on the “terrorism of obscurantism” should be heeded:
With Derrida, you can hardly misread him, because he’s so obscure. Every time you say, “He says so and so,” he always says, “You misunderstood me.” But if you try to figure out the correct interpretation, then that’s not so easy. I once said this to Michel Foucault, who was more hostile to Derrida even than I am, and Foucault said that Derrida practiced the method of obscurantisme terroriste (terrorism of obscurantism). We were speaking French. And I said, “What the hell do you mean by that?” And he said, “He writes so obscurely you can’t tell what he’s saying, that’s the obscurantism part, and then when you criticize him, he can always say, ‘You didn’t understand me; you’re an idiot.’ That’s the terrorism part.”
edwardfeser.blogspot.ca/2015/05/d-b-hart-and-terrorism-of-obscurantism.html
 
This is not just “any” statement. It is the Encyclopedia. Read it: “The Encyclopedia bears the imprimatur of the Most Reverend Archbishop under whose jurisdiction it is published.” And also: “The Catholic Encyclopedia, as its name implies, proposes to give its readers full and authoritative information on the entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine.” And since the doctrine - according to you never changed, the edition is exactly as valid as it was when first published.

No. You did not refute anything, you simply declared that I was in error. But forgot to substantiate what the error was.
Since your entire argument rests upon the claim that the older version of the Catholic Encyclopedia states that Molinism is Catholic doctrine when, in fact, the older version makes no such assertion, Gorgias has substantiated precisely what your error is.

I have taken the liberty of magnifying it for your enjoyment…
This is the heart of my post; if there’s one thing you read here, please direct your attention to this: Since you’re asserting not only that Molinism is official Catholic teaching, but also that the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia states that it is, I’ll direct your attention to another quote from the article you cite: “The Jesuit school, on the other hand — with whom probably a majority of independent theologians agree — using the scientia media…”. The meat of the Molinist controversy, as we have discussed it here, is the proposed ‘middle knowledge’ of God – the scientia media. Please note what the article is saying here: not only is the question disputed (with Dominicans saying “no way” and the Jesuits saying “you betcha”!), but also, the author admits that this is a question still under consideration by theologians – and even they don’t agree on the matter! In other words [according to even the 1917 version of the Catholic Encyclopedia]: Molinism is not Catholic doctrine; rather, it’s a philosophical/theological question that’s still being debated.

Thanks for helping prove that your assertion – that the Catholic Church officially teaches Molinism – is untrue.
 
Well, Bradski, here is the problem. “Right” meaning what exactly? Since children, according to you, are incapable of critical thought then bringing them up “right” means teaching them things that they do not have the wherewithal to confirm or deny, that would amount to “brainwashing” – at least in PA’s understanding of the term.

It would seem that children shouldn’t be taught anything of substance until they are capable of fully assessing for themselves whether what is being foisted on them is “right” or not – mid to late twenties, according to your studies*.

Until then, apparently, they should be kept in a sound and light proof chamber being fed and kept alive so as not to be contaminated in their thinking by what others might inadvertently foist on them in our exuberance to share what has hitherto been assented to by thought-capable humans.

*Although the critical thinking community and I, from personal experience, disagree with you.
criticalthinking.org/pages/k-3-instruction-strategies/1143
👍 Anyone who has taught children knows they’re often inclined to reject the voice of authority - and are also more perceptive than we realise…
 
This is not just “any” statement. It is the Encyclopedia.
:rolleyes:

Oh, thank goodness! We have the encyclopedia! I guess we can throw away all those pesky real sources of doctrine – the catechism, conciliar documents, papal writings – 'cause now we got ourselves an encyclopedia! woo hoo!
Read it: “The Encyclopedia bears the imprimatur of the Most Reverend Archbishop under whose jurisdiction it is published.”
Do you know the difference between the statements of a single bishop and the statements of the magisterium? Do you recognize that only the latter is authoritative?

(More to the point: do you still not admit that, what the encyclopedia says is actually that ‘middle knowledge’ is a point debated by theologians, and not asserted as doctrine by the Church?)
No. You did not refute anything, you simply declared that I was in error. But forgot to substantiate what the error was.
Trust me, it’s a target-rich environment. 😉

In case you missed it, one such example was the one that Peter has just quoted for you. 😉
A hypothetical state of affairs, which may or may not become actual. And if God would not KNOW that, he would not be “omniscient”.
Again, says you. Again, not successfully substantiated by you. Again, asserted by virtue of misinterpretation of the sources you cite.
Ah, so the same-old nonsense is coming up again. As you (and others) said: “You are perfectly right in the domain of the atheists, but not when God is being examined”. (or words to that affect).
At some point, when the world is saying ‘white’ and you’re saying ‘black’, you gotta ask yourself, PA: “why I am the only one who sees it this way? Could it be – horrors! – that I’m the one who’s wrong?”
Well, buddy, either God is “logical and rational” according to HUMAN terms
Or, perhaps more to the point, God is logical and rational according to DIVINE terms. 😉
If he sees a “good” guy, he can go ahead and create him, if he sees that Joe will sin, he can choose not to create Joe. This is the way to ensure total free will, and yet to create a world without “sin”.
Case definitely closed.

We already debated this one. You can keep asserting it, but really: that dog just don’t hunt. 🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top