I am baffled, please explain

[Pallas_Athene]

Yes, I do say that, PA. In the same way that I say, “Well, today I will choose to be a good wife.”

Actions are volitional. Beliefs are not. As I said before, try to “choose” to believe that leprechauns actually exist, and they hid a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. I don’t know why do we have to repeat this.

Well, they are only “unshakable” in the same way that I’d accuse you of being “unshakable” in your belief that “The rules of math are not really arbitrary.”

Are you unshakable in this belief?

The axioms of math and geometry are arbitrary. The Pythagoras theorem is PROVEN in the Euclidean geometry, so there is no belief involved. It is also false in hyperbolic geometry and in spherical geometry. There are no beliefs involved. Beliefs are only needed when there is insufficient information to establish knowledge.

Are you unshakable in your assertion that “For magic squares with the size of an odd number (3 x 3, 5 x 5, etc.) there is a very simple, universal method of creating them”?

Again, this is NOT a belief. It is a mathematical theorem, which is PROVEN. Is it really true that you do not understand the difference?

I already asked you, and you did not answer: “What do you think, what is the reason that the children of Christian parents are overwhelmingly Christian, while the children of Muslim parents are overwhelmingly Muslim, etc…”? That children usually “inherit” their religions from their parents? The obvious answer is that the parents “impose” their religion unto their children, when the children have to critical skills. If you don’t like the word “brainwashing”, use indoctrination or education.

An example of volitional choice is your annoying habit of inserting infantile GIF files into your posts, which have absolutely no informational value. They only increase the bandwidth, so - as a bare minimum - they impolitely impose themselves on other people’s “purse”. Bandwidth does not come cheap.

 

[DCNBILL]

Bradski already answered this, but let’s get into the details. Do you ponder every time… “well, what should I be today? A Catholic, a Muslim, a Buddhist… or maybe an atheist?” And then you say: “well, today I will choose to be a Catholic.” In order to make a true, free choice, try to choose something different, and tell us how successful you were in making a real choice.

You obviously make choices whether to go to mass, or participate in receiving the Eucharist, but these choices are the corollaries of your basic, instinctive, unshakable Catholic beliefs, which you accept without ever thinking about them. Nothing wrong with that, but you should realize that you do NOT actually “choose” to have those beliefs, you simply “have” them.

You should know that engaged Catholics participate in, study and pray their faith on a daily basis, we read books, we read the catechism, the lives of the saints, the Early Fathers, we go to Bible study and prayer groups. We do not simply have a faith we live it as best we can.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Actions are volitional. Beliefs are not. As I said before, try to “choose” to believe that leprechauns actually exist, and they hid a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. I don’t know why do we have to repeat this.

Perhaps because not all beliefs are of the same kind. A belief in leprechauns does not reflect on the kind of being an individual is - except perhaps makes a statement about their credulity.

Some “beliefs” are not factual beliefs, necessarily. They may be value beliefs. As such they make a statement about the kind of person or being one is.

For example, a belief that plundering nearby villages is quite permissible is not a factual belief of the kind that belief in leprechauns is. Ergo, someone who believes that raping and pillaging makes a good choice of occupations does have some leeway in terms of “choosing” to believe such a thing.

All beliefs are not equal, which is what your purported “argument” - re: our inability to choose beliefs - hangs entirely upon.

 

[Peter_Plato]

An example of volitional choice is your annoying habit of inserting infantile GIF files into your posts, which have absolutely no informational value. They only increase the bandwidth, so - as a bare minimum - they impolitely impose themselves on other people’s “purse”. Bandwidth does not come cheap.

Well, look who’s back!

Hee_Zen, you old rascal you! I thought your posting patterns seemed familiar!

 

[PRmerger]

Well, look who’s back!

Hee_Zen, you old rascal you! I thought your posting patterns seemed familiar!

'Tis true that no one can say that they’ve seen Hee_Zen and Pallas Athene in the same room together. Ever.

 

[Peter_Plato]

'Tis true that no one can say that they’ve seen Hee_Zen and Pallas Athene in the same room together. Ever.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12511249&postcount=360

 

[PRmerger]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12511249&postcount=360

 

[PRmerger]

Actions are volitional. Beliefs are not.

It’s quite odd that you are asserting some weird absolutes here.

Some actions are volitional. Some are not. Unless you consider your inspiration and expiration, digestive processes, insulin release to be volitional?

Some beliefs are not volitional. Some are.

#noneedforabsoluteshere

As I said before, try to “choose” to believe that leprechauns actually exist, and they hid a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. I don’t know why do we have to repeat this.

I don’t know why you have to repeat it, either? It’s kind of a weird nonsequitur, but ok.

We can agree that you never have to repeat it again. Ever.

 

[PRmerger]

The axioms of math and geometry are arbitrary. The Pythagoras theorem is PROVEN in the Euclidean geometry, so there is no belief involved. It is also false in hyperbolic geometry and in spherical geometry. There are no beliefs involved. Beliefs are only needed when there is insufficient information to establish knowledge.

Oh. You’re a math professor. I forgot that. (Actually, I didn’t )

I happen to be a math professor, who lectured probability theory and mathematical statistics for several decades. So, I would venture to say that I have more than a cursory knowledge about the subject.

 

[PRmerger]

The axioms of math and geometry are arbitrary.

But the rules of math are NOT arbitrary. You are unshakable in this, no?

So you permit yourself to be unshakable, but not others?

Why is that you keep reserving for yourself what you object to in others?

Again, this is NOT a belief. It is a mathematical theorem, which is PROVEN. Is it really true that you do not understand the difference?

You seem to be operating under a misapprehension that beliefs are that which can’t be proven.

Not sure where that definition comes from.

I already asked you, and you did not answer: “What do you think, what is the reason that the children of Christian parents are overwhelmingly Christian, while the children of Muslim parents are overwhelmingly Muslim, etc…”? That children usually “inherit” their religions from their parents? The obvious answer is that the parents “impose” their religion unto their children, when the children have to critical skills. If you don’t like the word “brainwashing”, use indoctrination or education.

I don’t have a problem with saying parents educate their children.

So what?

You’re educating your math students…I don’t begrudge your indoctrination of them with these mathematical truths.

Not sure why you are reserving for yourself what you object to in others.

An example of volitional choice is your annoying habit of inserting infantile GIF files into your posts, which have absolutely no informational value. They only increase the bandwidth, so - as a bare minimum - they impolitely impose themselves on other people’s “purse”. Bandwidth does not come cheap.

I am sorry that the cost of bandwidth is an issue for you.

Truly.

:sad_yes:

 

[Aloysium]

. . . You’re educating your math students…I don’t begrudge your indoctrination of them with these mathematical truths. . .

The problem with secular education is that it does provide an answer to questions that we all have about
who we are and why we are, about what is good, how one discerns the truth, and what constitutes beauty.

People yearn for truth, but what do the schools provide?

• no answer exists in mathematics or science,
• the social sciences are reduced to politics and opinion, and
• English and the Arts becoming studies of self-expression and subjectivity,
  The answer we are providing our kids within the modern educational system is “nihilism”.

In this regard, a couple of CS Lewis quotes come to mind:
“Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.”
“The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts.”
The latter hope remains unattained.

 

[PRmerger]

The problem with secular education is that it does provide an answer to questions that we all have about
who we are and why we are, about what is good, how one discerns the truth, and what constitutes beauty.

People yearn for truth, but what do the schools provide?

• no answer exists in mathematics or science,
• the social sciences are reduced to politics and opinion, and
• English and the Arts becoming studies of self-expression and subjectivity,
  The answer we are providing our kids within the modern educational system is “nihilism”.

In this regard, a couple of CS Lewis quotes come to mind:
“Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.”
“The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts.”
The latter hope remains unattained.

I’m not really buying the entirety of your argument.

It’s true that education needs to be tempered with values…but as far as math goes, math offers glimpses of beauty and transcendency, regardless of one’s values.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

You seem to be operating under a misapprehension that beliefs are that which can’t be proven.

As soon as a belief can be proven… it becomes KNOWLEDGE. It is a good idea to use words according to their meanings.

 

[PRmerger]

As soon as a belief can be proven… it becomes KNOWLEDGE. It is a good idea to use words according to their meanings.

Indeed. You are very Catholic when you say this.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . It’s true that education needs to be tempered with values…but as far as math goes, math offers glimpses of beauty and transcendency, regardless of one’s values.

I’m going by what I went through studying sciences and maths, and also what I see among young people today. I am not denying what you say say, but there are very simple answers as to why a 1998 study for example found that 51 percent of members of National Academy of Science stated that they were atheists, compared to 95 percent of the American public. Belief in God was 5.5 percent among biologists and 7.5 percent among physicist and astronomers. I see this as a reflection of what occurs in the training: the word “brainwashing” may be too strong, but it forcefully conveys the message.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . 51 percent of members of National Academy of Science stated that they were atheists, compared to 95 percent of the American public . . .

It should have read “professed a belief in God” rather than “stated that they were atheists”.
Shouldn’t post while at work, even if I am the boss.

 

[tonyrey]

Determinism is a two-edged sword! It destroys itself…

Having no choice implies that our beliefs are caused by factors beyond our control = determinism. Your reference to “assumption” indicates an element of doubt which is wise in view of the implications of not having free will. Computers are logical but not reasonable. I have yet to hear of one that hasn’t been programmed whereas we don’t usually treat people as if they can **never **think for themselves…

 

[Gorgias]

In order to make a true, free choice, try to choose something different, and tell us how successful you were in making a real choice.

What a truly odd statement for you to make, PA! After all, it’s you who have advocated for the notion that God could create an optimal world by only allowing to come into existence those people who will only always choose ‘no sin’ in every situation they face. And now, you tell us that the only way to make a true, real, free choice – is to actually choose different things. In other words, you’re admitting that your construct fails to demonstrate free will – or at least, true and free choices.

Will you ever tire of contradicting yourself? I hope not; it really keeps this thread entertaining…

 

[Peter_Plato]

Will you ever tire of contradicting yourself?

Ah, yes! The answer to why in the OP, PA is “baffled.” Self-contradiction always is AND always seeks a way out. Ergo, the plea, “Please explain!”

 

[Pallas_Athene]

What a truly odd statement for you to make, PA! After all, it’s you who have advocated for the notion that God could create an optimal world by only allowing to come into existence those people who will only always choose ‘no sin’ in every situation they face. And now, you tell us that the only way to make a true, real, free choice – is to actually choose different things. In other words, you’re admitting that your construct fails to demonstrate free will – or at least, true and free choices.

Will you ever tire of contradicting yourself? I hope not; it really keeps this thread entertaining…

Apples and oranges - as usual.

You also confuse actions and beliefs. Actions can be volitionally chosen (except reflexes and such), but beliefs are not. You cannot choose to believe in the real existence of leprechauns. Don’t you ever get it?

I am still wondering… are you really unable to comprehend the difference or simply playing hard to get?

I presented the dogmatic underpinning of the omniscience. Why don’t you concentrate on that, instead of derailing the thread, again?