I am baffled, please explain

[PRmerger]

Oh, you didnt have this included in your initial list of examples.

I can’t imagine what would make you think that the list I gave of a handful of beliefs was exhaustive.

Surely you understood it to be non-exhaustive.

Surely.

But perhaps it could be said that these particular slaveowners never believed, despite their upbringing, because they could not accept what they were being taught,

Well, you are making a statement of faith here, are you not, Son?

not as a matter of choice but as a matter of reality that they could plainly see was not true.

And this is nothing more than a testament to the existence of a Moral Absolute.

You are sounding more and more like a Catholic! Making statements of faith and assertions regarding Moral Absolutes.

Not much of a decision in either case.

I am incredulous that you could say that. It wasn’t a choice for a slaveowner to reject slavery.

Their beliefs were based on how they perceived reality, not as a matter of choice.

The two are not mutually exclusive, Son.

 

[PRmerger]

And how is that reality tested definitively, like how gravity can be tested?

By using our intellect.

Here’s 20 proofs we can use:

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

Is belief in God the choice of self delusion rather than choice to believe, much like how a person chooses to delude themselves to believe against gravity?

I suppose the question could also be posed: is denial of the existence of God the choice of self delusion much like how a person chooses to delude himself to deny gravity?

 

[Peter_Plato]

And how is that reality tested definitively, like how gravity can be tested?

Is belief in God the choice of self delusion rather than choice to believe, much like how a person chooses to delude themselves to believe against gravity?

We have the capacity to get beyond ourselves. That capacity is made possible by supernatural graces and supernatural virtues - faith, hope and love.

The reason we can get beyond ourselves is that God (omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omnipresent) makes it possible. We can choose to believe or not to believe because he also underwrites our capacity to get beyond our current belief limitations. We can choose to wallow in our current views or get beyond them.

We have choices because God makes them possible. He makes them possible so that by seeking beyond ourselves we might find that which is beyond the limitations of mere self. Ego is the eggshell that defines the boundary of what we believe. We can continue to be restricted by that boundary convincing ourselves that our current set of beliefs is essentially correct and will govern all our future beliefs, or we can hatch and come to know the possibilities that are outside of that shell.

Sure, it is a frightening thing to “crack” the shell because it allows in all kinds of uncontrollable and indeterminable things. Rigid skepticism protects our little conceptual bubble from being so disturbed, but the trade off is unacceptable once the light begins to penetrate the darkness of that conceptual bubble.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you, desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

 

[PRmerger]

One thing to add, though:

If existence of gravity is simply a reality, that means there really is no choice to be made., its just reality.

If God is simply a reality, that means there really is no choice to be made. Its just reality.

So, there is no choice to believe.

Well, just like someone can delude himself into thinking gravity doesn’t exist, someone can delude himself into thinking God doesn’t exist…so, I suppose you’re correct.

If one wants to live a life consonant with reality, he ought to believe in God. He ought to believe in gravity.

But one is free to believe what he likes, given the gift of free will.

 

[DCNBILL]

One thing to add, though:

If existence of gravity is simply a reality, that means there really is no choice to be made., its just reality.

If God is simply a reality, that means there really is no choice to be made. Its just reality.

So, there is no choice to believe.

Which exactly proves the point.

You chose to not believe in the reality of the existence of God!

Well done!

 

[SonOfMan]

I suppose the question could also be posed: is denial of the existence of God the choice of self delusion much like how a person chooses to delude himself to deny gravity?

No. Gravity is self evident, whereas God is not. Not believing in God isnt a choice. Since God is absent and I perceive reality based on things I can interact with, I cannot feel compelled to believe in his existence.

 

[Peter_Plato]

One thing to add, though:

If existence of gravity is simply a reality, that means there really is no choice to be made., its just reality.

If God is simply a reality, that means there really is no choice to be made. Its just reality.

So, there is no choice to believe.

Only if you think denial of reality is not a choice to be made.

Advocates of same sex marriage and gender dysphoria stand as a refutation of your claim that human beings cannot deny reality when it stares them in the face.

Human beings do it all the time AND rationalize their denial by claiming the denial was unavoidable - that they “couldn’t help it.” Thus, begging off the question entirely.

Very convenient, I would say.

 

[SonOfMan]

Which exactly proves the point.

You chose to not believe in the reality of the existence of God!

Well done!

Except I would argue that God isnt a reality, but a belief based on upbringing, trust, and the way one perceives reality. I perceive reality based in things I interact with. I cant interact with God no more than I interact with leprechauns. For me, I have no choice but to not believe.

For believers who believe God is a reality, they have no choice but to believe in his existence, just like one has no choice but to acknowledge the existence of gravity if they jump off a building.

In either scenario for the believer or nonbeliever, belief or disbelief is not due to personal choice, but to personal perception of reality.

 

[PRmerger]

My wife was sublimely beautiful standing barefoot and pregnant in our kitchen.

This, of course, points out the narrowness so prevalent in the modern western mindset - that it can’t seem to get beyond the monomaniacal fetish which currently preoccupies its limited attention capacity, all the while sanctimoniously preening the delusion of moral superiority and intellectual enlightenment.

Indeed.

As Peter Kreeft says, paraphrasing: most people—outside of asylums and graduate schools–know not to swallow the delusional, the ridiculous, the absurd.

 

[PRmerger]

No. Gravity is self evident, whereas God is not. Not believing in God isnt a choice. Since God is absent and I perceive reality based on things I can interact with, I cannot feel compelled to believe in his existence.

Of course. God doesn’t not want you to feel compelled to believe in his existence.

God wants you to believe because you…er, …choose to believe.

He has given you your intellect, and the ability to reason your way into belief.

But you can choose to deny your intellect and reason.

That’s your choice.

He will not compel you.

 

[SonOfMan]

I can’t imagine what would make you think that the list I gave of a handful of beliefs was exhaustive.

Surely you understood it to be non-exhaustive.

Surely.

Of course not, but I thought we were discussing the examples provided, until you chose to change them up and introduce a new one. It was still addressed though.

Well, you are making a statement of faith here, are you not, Son?

No.

And this is nothing more than a testament to the existence of a Moral Absolute.

A testament to how some people can realize the truth while other who cannot. People believe according to what they see as th truth.

I am incredulous that you could say that. It wasn’t a choice for a slaveowner to reject slavery.

I would say his choice lies with him choosing to follow up on the right thing to do, based on what he saw as the truth. I wouldnt say he chose to believe slavery was wrong.

 

[Peter_Plato]

No. Gravity is self evident, whereas God is not.

That would be your claim.

For me, God is more self-evident than gravity.

Gravity could not exist and indeed in various places in the universe is not detectable. Therefore, gravity would not be “self-evident” in those locations.

It is inconceivable to me that God NOT exist. Nothing whatsoever would make any sense at all.

You happen to be in a place (figuratively speaking) where gravity is detectable (and, therefore, self-evident) to your current mental state, but God is not. That does not mean that in an absolute sense God’s existence is not self-evident, though it may not be to you, at this moment. It could be that your “God detectors” are simply not functioning; whether that is because you have turned them off or simply haven’t made use of them at all is another question.

-]Hee_Zen/-] err… I mean… Pallas Athene should be having a fit by now.

 

[SonOfMan]

Of course. God doesn’t not want you to feel compelled to believe in his existence.

God wants you to believe because you…er, …choose to believe.

He has given you your intellect, and the ability to reason your way into belief.

But you can choose to deny your intellect and reason.

That’s your choice.

He will not compel you.

I dont know how I can possibly choose to believe in something that I dont think exists.

If it doesnt exist, I cant believe in it. Theres no choice involved.

 

[DCNBILL]

Except I would argue that God isnt a reality, but a belief based on upbringing, trust, and the way one perceives reality. I perceive reality based in things I interact with. I cant interact with God no more than I interact with leprechauns. For me, I have no choice but to not believe.

For believers who believe God is a reality, they have no choice but to believe in his existence, just like one has no choice but to acknowledge the existence of gravity if they jump off a building.

In either scenario for the believer or nonbeliever, belief or disbelief is not due to personal choice, but to personal perception of reality.

But your argument does not change the fact that your Creator exists, otherwise you would not.

 

[SonOfMan]

That would be your claim.

For me, God is more self-evident than gravity.

Gravity could not exist and indeed in various places in the universe is not detectable. Therefore, gravity would not be “self-evident” in those locations.

It is inconceivable to me that God NOT exist. Nothing whatsoever would make any sense at all.

You happen to be in a place (figuratively speaking) where gravity is detectable (and, therefore, self-evident) to your current mental state, but God is not. That does not mean that in an absolute sense God’s existence is not self-evident, though it may not be to you, at this moment. It could be that your “God detectors” are simply not functioning; whether that is because you have turned them off or simply haven’t made use of them at all is another question.

-]Hee_Zen/-] err… I mean… Pallas Athene should be having a fit by now.

Yes, for someone who lives in a place where gravity doesnt exist who has never been to earth, they would have no choice to believe that gravity doesnt exist… for them. Can they be faulted for not having the means to detect gravity and therefore not believing in gravity? Its not as if they purposely chose against gravity, they just didnt have the means to detect it.

 

[Peter_Plato]

For me, I have no choice but to not believe.

Well, that conflicts with the “Unsure” religious status noted on your profile.

Are you saying you have no choice but to be “unsure” or no choice but “to not believe?”

You seem to be uncertain about whether you have a choice at all or not but are hedging towards not having a choice because you don’t want to make a choice

 

[Peter_Plato]

Yes, for someone who lives in a place where gravity doesnt exist who has never been to earth, they would have no choice to believe that gravity doesnt exist… for them. Can they be faulted for not having the means to detect gravity and therefore not believing in gravity? Its not as if they purposely chose against gravity, they just didnt have the means to detect it.

True, but then they honestly shouldn’t make determinations about whether gravity exists or not based upon their incapacity to detect it. It would be willful of them to claim gravity didn’t exist MERELY because they, themselves, don’t detect it.

This is, by the way, the position taken by atheists AND what seems to be your fallback when you say if you don’t think God exists you are right to conclude he doesn’t. That is a non-sequitur.

Now, you can choose to ignore the fact that it is a non-sequitur and willfully continue from here basing decisions on that choice. The result would be a series of choices contingent upon a a choice to ignore the fact that your conclusion and subsequent actions arise from a non-sequitur. A choice, correct, since it is a fact that the conclusion is a non-sequitur but you are treating it as if it weren’t, thus choosing to ignore a fact?

That the conclusion is a non-sequitur IS a fact just like gravity is a fact and you are choosing to ignore it undermines your whole claim that we can’t possibly choose which facts we accept and which we don’t.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

As time goes on, I become “baffled” more and more. On one hand, God’s existence is more self-evident than gravity, on the other hand he does not want to “compel” us by providing actual, irrefutable evidence for his existence.

So… how is it? Yep, I am getting confused more and more.

 

[DCNBILL]

As time goes on, I become “baffled” more and more. On one hand, God’s existence is more self-evident than gravity, on the other hand he does not want to “compel” us by providing actual, irrefutable evidence for his existence.

So… how is it? Yep, I am getting confused more and more.

How about another approach.

PA do you believe that your mind exists?

 

[PRmerger]

I dont know how I can possibly choose to believe in something that I dont think exists.

If it doesnt exist, I cant believe in it. Theres no choice involved.

Well, that’s begging the question, isn’t it?