I was running out of things to say; thanks for the opportunity to keep this running.
You will not offend anyone in saying you do not understand Christian teaching; that’s why we are here.
Everything is staked totally upon the credibility of the one “asking you to believe a proposition.” In most cases the ONE making the request is yourself. You trust your own authority and capacity to ascertain whether a proposition is true or not.
I don’t think there is a problem with believing what others tell us in principle. I trust my car mechanic (mostly) to tell me what is wrong with my car and how to fix it. But, my car is not nearly so important as whether a human being is actually God, or whether an organization of mostly western Europeans “speaks with the voice of God.”
We are not obligated to pretend to know the meaning of things we don’t understand. However, it is quite consistent to admit we don’t or can’t understand the meaning of those things, while, at the same time, admitting that our lack of a capacity to determine their truth value does not make them false.
Read Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist by Brant Pitre
Jesus resurrected from the dead and founded a Church. He gave us ‘extraordinary’ proof.
lol Thanks.
Looks to me like it’s a man resting his chin on his hands.lol Thanks.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Founding a church is not extraordinary. Human beings have established many religions and cults throughout all periods of history. Resurrection from death would indeed be extraordinary, but allegations of an empty tomb or hearsay accounts of visions of a resurrected Jesus are not enough in my opinion. Precisely why, for instance, do you reject claims of the followers of Islam about the direct inspiration of their prophet’s revelation, but accept the claims about Jesus made by the RCC? Are you “choosing your belief” or is the evidence convincing enough for one but not the other?
Ummm…I’m pretty sure Peter means that rising from the dead is pretty extraordinary. Esp. when you predicted you’re going to do it.
Walk us through this.
Say it aint so!!! Would I have to give up the proposition that I am autonomous cause and ruler of myself? That can not and will not happen!
I am not accusing anyone of knowingly telling lies. And, I am well aware of the apologetic dance regarding the resurrection narrative. I used to be on the other side of it. The problem is that it does too much work. It would justify belief in many different historical claims, including the claims of Islam and Mormonism. Let’s not for now OK? We can’t even seem to figure out whether we choose our beliefs along with many other difficulties. If you want to take me through the resurrection proof discussion you can PM me or direct me to hundreds of similar arguments available everywhere unless you have new evidence. If God himself appeared to you to tell you something not generally alleged by the Church or other Christians, please do share. I will need witnesses and/or video tape please.
So all the people who claimed to have seen the risen Christ were deceived, not lying?
No, PC. That’s a copout. You need to offer some apologia for your beliefs here.
When we insist that our beliefs must conform to our wills we make ourselves into the arbiters of truth.Say it aint so!!! Would I have to give up the proposition that I am autonomous cause and ruler of myself? That can not and will not happen!
Respectfully, I decline. I will offer an opinion. I do not know exactly what happened in 1st century Palestine, and I don’t know what happened in 7th century Arabia, but in neither case do I think that the claims arising from either of those situations should be believed based on the amount and quality of evidence available to me right now.
Interesting that you should bring that up. There is far more evidence from the 21st century to prove that Sathiya Say Baba was God than there is for Jesus. Sathiya worked many miracles, including resurrecting from the dead, with many eyewitnesses, its well documented, and there is even video proof. You could have even travelled to India and met him in person. Even though this overwhelming amount of evidence exists, I am more than willing to bet you wont profess your belief in and devout your life to Sathiya Say Baba. You are willing to accept much less and weaker evidence for Jesus though. Why is that?
Well, that’s as otiose as someone coming here and saying, “The MMR vaccine causes autism” and then when asked to offer evidence for his assertion saying, “Respectfully, I decline. I will simply say that none of us knows what really goes on with vaccines, so I don’t know what happens. But I will continue to say that the MMR causes autism.”
I, too, am compelled by evidence.
Yes, very interesting! One of my former clients was a medical doctor of Indian origin who now teaches at one of the most prestigious medical schools in the world, and he is a devotee of the most recent incarnation of Sathiya Say Baba. He spends 3 months of every year tending to ill children in the poorest slums of India at his own expense. He told me all about this apparently magnificent person.