I am disturbed by the Catechism's Veiw on Muslims

[Joseph_Alison]

I’m told that the Aramaic word for God is ‘Ala.’ That would make it the word Jesus used. Interesting that it should be so close to the Muslim 'Allah.'

Salaam Friend Romano;
I posted a link in one of the threads which you can find Here and it deals with the Aramaic word for God.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Kathy_McAvinue]

Brother Gonzales, it isn’t fair that you didn’t show my whole post, which was only a few more words than you quoted.
I hope you just misunderstood it and thush didn’t mean to be mischevious.

My post had an additional phrase in it. The 2 that you mentioned plus the 3rd one are all not contradicting each other.

LuigiColletta
I have found that some of the remarks by r.gonzales are nasty and spiteful. I find that they are meant to limit disagreement with his point of view. I find that people who don’t have confindence in their point of view do this type of thing often. I have stopped post on this stream because of his nastiness.

 

[r.gonzales]

Kathy McAvinue:

I have found that some of the remarks by r.gonzales are nasty and spiteful. I find that they are meant to limit disagreement with his point of view.

in arabic we call this soo-udh-dhann.

kathy, you’re free to think what you want, but i think you read too much into things.

 

[abu_suhaylah]

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, so go easy on me!

Strangely enough I agree with Joe in that the trinity is a mystery, so I thought that maybe the Catholic Encyclopaedia might be able to shed more light on the fundamental belief system of the Catholic faith, so off I went to have a look at newadvent.org only to be greeted with the following:

“It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.”

So even the Catholic Church admits that their belief system is a mystery, with this in mind it is a strange claim that the Catholic Church is a guiding tool to salvation when the fundamental beliefs of the Catholic faith remain a mystery, so how is it a person can be guided on what and how to believe in god when for Catholics it remains a mystery, and how can one truly worship god if they do not know anything about him and he remains a mystery to them.

Regards

abu suhaylah

 

[Genesis315]

abu_suhaylah:

and how can one truly worship god if they do not know anything about him

Not knowing the little details of the Trinity is hardly not knowing anything about Him. There have been saints who have done a good job explaning the Trinity (St. Patrick, for example) to a point where we understand the fact that there are three persons and one divine nature.

The Incarnation was God bridging the gap between God and man so that we could not only know Him, but also enter into an intimate Holy Communion with Him. Plus, we can read and hear about the actions and words of God which also reveal much about Him.

The fact of the matter is even though the Trinity may be difficult to understand, this mystery never really interferes with worship or knowledge of God anyway. Likewise, from what I’ve read, to Muslims Allah remains hidden which seems to be more of an impediment to true worship than the mechanics of the Trinity.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

abu_suhaylah:

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, so go easy on me!

Strangely enough I agree with Joe in that the trinity is a mystery, so I thought that maybe the Catholic Encyclopaedia might be able to shed more light on the fundamental belief system of the Catholic faith, so off I went to have a look at newadvent.org only to be greeted with the following:

“It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.”

So even the Catholic Church admits that their belief system is a mystery, with this in mind it is a strange claim that the Catholic Church is a guiding tool to salvation when the fundamental beliefs of the Catholic faith remain a mystery, so how is it a person can be guided on what and how to believe in god when for Catholics it remains a mystery, and how can one truly worship god if they do not know anything about him and he remains a mystery to them.

Regards

abu suhaylah

Salaam Friend Abu_Suhaylah;
Please allow me to welcome you to this sub forum on Islam.
Our Catholic friends have graciously setup this sub-forum on Islam in order for us to learn from them and them from us. In the net, you will barely find other non-Muslim message boards having a feature like this one; we thank our Catholic friends very much and we keep in mind we are their guests after all.

Religious discussions -as you certainly know- can be difficult and especially when the language used can be somehow found offensive. From both sides we try our best to select the languages used and avoid confrontation, which is a blocker to any constructive dialog anyway.

Welcome again.
Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[hawk]

abu_suhaylah:

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, so go easy on me!

Strangely enough I agree with Joe in that the trinity is a mystery, so I thought that maybe the Catholic Encyclopaedia might be able to shed more light on the fundamental belief system of the Catholic faith, so off I went to have a look at newadvent.org only to be greeted with the following:

“It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.”

So even the Catholic Church admits that their belief system is a mystery, with this in mind it is a strange claim that the Catholic Church is a guiding tool to salvation when the fundamental beliefs of the Catholic faith remain a mystery, so how is it a person can be guided on what and how to believe in god when for Catholics it remains a mystery, and how can one truly worship god if they do not know anything about him and he remains a mystery to them.

Regards

abu suhaylah

Interesting, what can you tell us about the Nature of God, beyond our understanding.

So far, Catholics say God is One, but reveals Himself in a Three ways or a Trinity.

Muslims say God is One, and stop right there.

Beyond that neither of us, knows or understands the nature of God.

 

[abu_suhaylah]

Dear Joseph

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Dear Hawk

In the Qur’aan and the Sunnah (sayings, actions and silent approvals of the Prophet Muhammad [sall-Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam]) Allaah revealed about Himself that which enables us to know that which is important for us to know in order for us to know the One who we are worshipping so that we can worship Him properly and so that we can draw closer to Him. So He informed us about His:

Tawheedur-Rububiyyah: Maintaining Oneness of the Lordship of Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa). To believe that, there is only one Lord for the entire universe - Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa) - and He is its Creator, Owner and Regulator.

Tawheedul-Uluhiyya / Ibaadah: Maintaining Oneness of the Worship of Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa). To believe that none has the right to be worshipped (e.g. by praying, invoking, asking for help (from the unseen), swearing, slaughtering sacrifices, giving charity, fasting, and Hajj etc.) but Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa).

Tawheedul-Asma-was-Sifaat: Maintaining Oneness of the Names (Asma) and the Qualities/Attributes (Sifaat) of Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa).

So this is a very brief introduction, but there is great detail in this, and the point I was trying to make more then anything is that the fundamentals of our belief is not a mystery, but the opposite is the case with the Catholic faith.

I apologise for any misunderstanding and I hope that is a bit clearer now!

Regards

abu suhaylah

 

[hawk]

abu_suhaylah:

Dear Joseph

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Dear Hawk

In the Qur’aan and the Sunnah (sayings, actions and silent approvals of the Prophet Muhammad [sall-Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam]) Allaah revealed about Himself that which enables us to know that which is important for us to know in order for us to know the One who we are worshipping so that we can worship Him properly and so that we can draw closer to Him. So He informed us about His:

Tawheedur-Rububiyyah: Maintaining Oneness of the Lordship of Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa). To believe that, there is only one Lord for the entire universe - Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa) - and He is its Creator, Owner and Regulator.

Tawheedul-Uluhiyya / Ibaadah: Maintaining Oneness of the Worship of Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa). To believe that none has the right to be worshipped (e.g. by praying, invoking, asking for help (from the unseen), swearing, slaughtering sacrifices, giving charity, fasting, and Hajj etc.) but Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa).

Tawheedul-Asma-was-Sifaat: Maintaining Oneness of the Names (Asma) and the Qualities/Attributes (Sifaat) of Allaah (subhaanahu wa t’aalaa).

So this is a very brief introduction, but there is great detail in this, and the point I was trying to make more then anything is that the fundamentals of our belief is not a mystery, but the opposite is the case with the Catholic faith.

I apologise for any misunderstanding and I hope that is a bit clearer now!

Regards

abu suhaylah

My friend we had a long discussion regarding Tawheed, you might want to refer to that particular thread.

 

[abu_suhaylah]

Dear Hawk

Thank you for the link, I will look in to it inshaa’Allaah!

Regards

abu suhaylah

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ghosty:

Remember, Jews don’t believe in the Trinity either, but to say that they don’t believe in the God of Christianity is downright blasphemy. Moses didn’t believe in the Trinity, after all.

You’re splitting hairs, here, I think. Insofar as Muslims recognize the God of Abraham, they are brothers and sisters in worship. Insofar as they don’t, they are not.

The Muslims are wrong about God, but that doesn’t mean they don’t believe in Him.

God is God, whatever ideas we hold about Him - with respect to God as He is in Himself, He is the same God for Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Unless there is a completely different God for each religion, which we Christians can’t believe without landing straight in polytheism.​

So far as He is conceived of or believed in by us on earth, members of the three monotheistic religions may well hold - and do hold - different beliefs about Him. In this sense, the God of Muslims is not the God of Catholics.

None of what men think about God affects how God acts - Muslims may not admit that God is triune: but why should this stop God being triune if He is triune ? I may think George Bush is a plant or vegetable - my conviction that he is, no matter how firm, no matter how many proofs & miracles I, and a billion others, may show in favour of this conviction, doesn’t make Dubya fit for potting or spraying with DDT or whatever gardeners use these days.

Are we really to suppose that God is changed by what we believe about him ?

I can’t really see what all the fuss is about: the offending section in the CCC - CCC 841 to be exact - was lifted from the Decree “Nostra Aetate” of Vatican II. It can be argued that the needs of the Church’s teaching would have been better served by a formulation of teaching in the CCC that was somewhat less friendly, and was more non-committal, in tone, given the changes in the Islamic world since the decree was promulgated - but, as it stands, the decree and that quotation from it are perfectly truthful and orthodox.

I suspect that what is wanted by some is a less friendly tone, rather than a doctrinal change. The text of the quotation could - it may be supposed - be made clearer so as to leave no room for uncertainty about its meaning; but people sometimes see ambiguity where none is intended. How one reads & understands the text is largely dependent on what sort of person one is. ##

 

[UnworthySoul]

abu_suhaylah:

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, so go easy on me!

Strangely enough I agree with Joe in that the trinity is a mystery, so I thought that maybe the Catholic Encyclopaedia might be able to shed more light on the fundamental belief system of the Catholic faith, so off I went to have a look at newadvent.org only to be greeted with the following:

“It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.”

So even the Catholic Church admits that their belief system is a mystery, with this in mind it is a strange claim that the Catholic Church is a guiding tool to salvation when the fundamental beliefs of the Catholic faith remain a mystery, so how is it a person can be guided on what and how to believe in god when for Catholics it remains a mystery, and how can one truly worship god if they do not know anything about him and he remains a mystery to them.

Regards

abu suhaylah

You make some fundamental mistakes. The Catholic Church does not claim to “not know anything about Him” and to imply such is dishonest. The Church merely states that there are things about God that are unknown. It NEVER says it knows nothing about Him. Indeed, the Catholic Church has the totality of the revealed knowledge of God. It IS the path to Salvation in it’s purest form, given to us by Christ Himself.

The Catholic Church’s claim to be the guiding tool to salvation is easily understood through apostolic succession.

As an aside, I think it would be the height of arrogance for ANY religion to claim they know everything about God.

 

[rmyers]

abu_suhaylah:

So even the Catholic Church admits that their belief system is a mystery, with this in mind it is a strange claim that the Catholic Church is a guiding tool to salvation when the fundamental beliefs of the Catholic faith remain a mystery, so how is it a person can be guided on what and how to believe in god when for Catholics it remains a mystery, and how can one truly worship god if they do not know anything about him and he remains a mystery to them.

Regards

abu suhaylah

Abu, is it your position then that we must fully understand GOD and all his mystery before we can believe in him? Do you believe GOD created the earth? If so can you explain how he did it? I believe Christ was raised from the dead, although it goes against every practical thought. As Catholic Christians we must accept things from a position of faith and it is our Faith in GOD and the teachings of his Church that we will not be lead astray.

God Bless
Ron Myers

 

[memnoch_lover]

the cathecism says " the plan of salvation includes the muslims" it does not say that the muslims are already saved.

hence forth muslims must not remain muslims to be saved…The vatican document " dominus iesus" sayd that salvation comes thru jesus alone…

the church is clear on her stand…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

abu_suhaylah:

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, so go easy on me!

Strangely enough I agree with Joe in that the trinity is a mystery, so I thought that maybe the Catholic Encyclopaedia might be able to shed more light on the fundamental belief system of the Catholic faith, so off I went to have a look at newadvent.org only to be greeted with the following:

“It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.”

So even the Catholic Church admits that their belief system is a mystery, with this in mind it is a strange claim that the Catholic Church is a guiding tool to salvation when the fundamental beliefs of the Catholic faith remain a mystery, so how is it a person can be guided on what and how to believe in god when for Catholics it remains a mystery, and how can one truly worship god if they do not know anything about him and he remains a mystery to them.

Regards

abu suhaylah

Mysteries aren’t blanks about which we can say or think nothing useful - there are mysteries, because if God is God & not an idol of our own making He must utterly exceed the limits of our created minds; which are those of frail, mortal, sinful human beings.​

If a fleece lies on the ground and the rain falls, some will fall on the fleece & some on the ground outside the limits of the fleece. So with mysteries - our minds are like fleeces, and our ignorance is the area outside the fleece. The rain, is what God reveals to us. Although we do not know & cannot know the Trinity exhaustively, yet we can know the Trinity - however slightly, faintly, or sketchily: for some of the rain, little as it may be, has fallen on the fleece.

How do we know God ? Most of all, by His revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. ##

 

[breadboy]

I don’t understand all of the extraneous writings, teachings and reliance upon past authorities. Just use the Bible. It’s plain and simple. John 14:6 sums it up. John 3:16 is the defining verse of our religion. There are many, many others showing that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

The bible makes reference in Exodus 2:24, " And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob." The old covenant is with the Jews. The Muslims have no such covenant. We Christians are paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, if we believe He is the Lord, and repent.

Ishmael was born out of disbelief in God’s promises. The Lord promised Abraham and Sarah a child, but because of a lack of faith Sarah convinced Abraham to have intercourse with Hagar, her Egyptian servant. The jealousy Ishmael and his mother had toward Isaac is as dangerous as Satan’s jealousy of God; just as Cain’s jealousy of Able.

Have any of you read anything of the Hadith? Know anything about the Mahdi? According to these writings, Jesus is supposed to come back to kill the opposition to the Mahdi (who will unite the world under Islam). He’ll be killing Jews. Uh, I hope you see a problem with that! Through Christ, we gentiles are grafted into the Olive tree. Jesus didn’t attack the tree with a chainsaw!

The Jews have a covenant with God, but don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah. The Muslims have no covenant, just a blessing of multiplicity and wealth, and a prophecy of every man’s hand being against the descendants of Ishmael.

There are 1 Billion Muslims in the world. They need salvation. 1 Billion souls that will be turned away by the words, “Depart from me…I never knew you.” How much do you really love them? Enough to convert them? Or not at all, but just to appease them so the extremists won’t kill you?

The Catechism is dreadfully wrong on this subject. It needs to be fixed.

Maranatha! Come quickly Lord Jesus!

 

[exoflare]

Oh great, just what this discussion needs… more Christian heresies for the Muslims to mistake for our own beliefs.

Don’t expect me or anyone else to waste time debating Protestant errors on this subforum with you, breadboy. That’s not what it was put here for. As long as the Muslims here are clear you don’t represent Catholicism, that’s all I care about as far as this subforum for Islam is concerned.

 

[HelpingHands]

Breadboy,
Do you really think a merciful God will reject 1 billion people merely because an accident of their birth caused them to be born in Muslim countries? Does that make one bit of sense? Sorry, but your theology is wrong, IMO

 

[Genesis315]

HelpingHands:

Breadboy,
Do you really think a merciful God will reject 1 billion people merely because an accident of their birth caused them to be born in Muslim countries? Does that make one bit of sense? Sorry, but your theology is wrong, IMO

This is true. God wills the salvation of all men, therefore it must be at least *possible *for all men to be saved. God is not going to create someone so He can throw them into Hell–He always lets people choose Hell.

 

[breadboy]

Exoflare,
Could you please elaborate on the on what you think is erroneous in my post. Actually, you called it heresy, so I think it best that you should explain what was heretical with what I said.

Also, where did I state that I’m protestant? Is it evident through my defense of the Bible? I know some Catholics that didn’t know about the very topic of this dicussion thread, at all. When I told them, and in some cases showed them (from the copy of the Catechism I borrowed from the public library), they couldn’t believe it. Just as many protestant denominations seem to be split on topics such as gay marriage, abortion and support for Israel, it seems some Catholics are split too. My Father-in-Law is Catholic, yet He doesn’t believe this is right, because he knows from the Bible that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

What I’m basically saying is, do you believe the utter in-errancy of the Bible or not? How about these verses, do you believe them?
2 Timothy 4:2 says, “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.”
2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,”
Ecclesiastes 7:20, " There is not a righteous man on earth
who does what is right and never sins."
Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”
Galatians 3:29, “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Because the Abrahamic covenant was broken by sin, and we ALL sin, Jesus had to come to Earth to pay the payment for penalty of a broken Blood Contract. For ALL OF US. He’s the only one who can pay, just as He’s the only one worthy to open the Seals at the beginning of the Tribulation. Only through the blood of Christ are we saved!

Believe what’s in the Bible! It’s the Word of God. Remember John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

I believe every word. Is that wrong?