I am disturbed by the Catechism's Veiw on Muslims

[kev7]

selvaraj:

John 14:6 says,
Jesus answered him,"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me.
According to this Bible words there is no salvation to Muslims.

In Christ,
selvaraj

The mercy of Christ is infinite.

When we die Christ will look into our hearts and he will judge us on a personal level. All circumstance will be considered. Christ says that whatever you do to the least of my brothers you do on to me. It is therefore clear, that a man who lives outside the church can still be saved. Jesus could ask the man, “when I was hungry did you feed me?” " When I was cold did you give me your cloak? " etc…

That is how Christ will judge us. He will look into our hearts. You will go to the father if Christ finds your soul to be pure.

Don’t forget about the thief on the cross with Jesus. He told that man that he would be in paradise with him that day. Christ can allow anyone into the gates of heave that he chooses for any reason. He is God. He has that power. If you don’t believe someone outside the faith can be saved by Christ then you don’t accept the power of Christ and the power of the resurrection.

Allot of people don’t understand how powerful Christ is.

 

[sainted]

Sorry I sort of jumped the fence instead of climbing with the assumption …

]

QUOTE=Darrel] The only one who can answer this is God. We can sit here all day and talk about who is right and who is wrong. Which religion is right or wrong etc etc

Let me clarify. Since you didn’t reply directly if my doctrine was right, wrong, acceptable or whatever I assumed it was perfectly ok since it’s all up to God. Which poses another question.

Why is there then need for religion? Why don’t we just drop religion altogether and just live our normal lives leaving it to the ultimate Judge how He sees our hearts on Judgement Day. It seems you are implying this!

The Church is wise to say it can not say how God will judge. I will leave it to him because we are not assigned by him to figure out the contents of each individual human heart. I have enough to worry about in myself to be judged for.

Sure and Jesus gave out sorta guideline.

 

[Darrel]

Why is there then need for religion

The reason for religion is that Christ started this Catholic religion with Peter.

Why don’t we just drop religion altogether and just live our normal lives leaving it to the ultimate Judge how He sees our hearts on Judgement Day. It seems you are implying this!

I’m sure the Pharisees may have thought the same thing as the adulteress was released verses being stoned. Why did he spare here the wrath of the law? God is love and he is just. We are not and that is the reason he does not judge as man judges. Is this point going to end with some sort of clear statement from you about the issue? You seem to be asking questions about common sense issues here. Perhaps it would be better to just state something outright.
Sure and Jesus gave out sorta guideline

You speak here as if Jesus exists in the past tense only. He did not give out a “sorta guideline” it was very clear. But just as important is the fact that he guides people this very moment. Do me a favor and just state your opinion. This set of questions is a bit pointless with regards to useful discussion or debate.

-D

 

[exoflare]

sainted:

Why is there then need for religion? Why don’t we just drop religion altogether and just live our normal lives leaving it to the ultimate Judge how He sees our hearts on Judgement Day.

Religion?

(2 Timothy 3:1-5)
But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered, lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

 

[Contarini]

Chazemataz:

What is disturbing is the statement that “together with us they [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” So, Catholics and Muslims both “adore the one, merciful God.” Quite frankly, it would seem that the Roman Catholic church has a faulty understanding of the God of Islam.
Allah is not a trinity. Allah is only one.
“They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them,” (Quran 5:73, Yusufali).
“They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve,” (Quran 5:73, Pickthal). See Chapter five of Online version of Quran.
Since the Trinity is the true biblical doctrine of God, how can the Muslims who deny the Trinity “adore the one, merciful God”? They cannot. Furthermore, in Christianity, Jesus is divine in nature (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). Yet, the Quran states that Jesus is not divine:

Why would they put such a blaringly uncorrect staement in the Catechism??

Your profile says that you’re Catholic. So why don’t you at least consider the possibility that you are wrong and your Church is right? Shouldn’t you be a little more teachable?

Clearly you don’t have to have a fully correct understanding of God in order to worship Him. As Ghosty said, your argument would condemn Jews, and arguably Biblical Hebrews as well (though I know some would say that OT saints implicitly believed in the Trinity, and obviously they didn’t reject it explicitly since it hadn’t been taught yet!

Edwin

 

[sainted]

I wish you made it out straight like this in the beginning and really shared with me your stance on your religion. But to give me a right or wrong answer didn’t really help me. You should always profess what you believe in is right regardless of the status quo. If you believe your church is the right one just say it. And if you believe my doctrine was wrong I wish you could just say so. I would appreciate a direct answer.

You see I can’t talk to God now as I am to you and confirm with him my ideas. And it’s just too late to wait for His judgement (after death) because by then the damage would have been done. That’s why He pours out His Holy Spirit amongst the faithful so that one another can profess the Truth and stand by the Truth in helping others.

 

[Darrel]

sainted:

I wish you made it out straight like this in the beginning and really shared with me your stance on your religion. But to give me a right or wrong answer didn’t really help me. You should always profess what you believe in is right regardless of the status quo. If you believe your church is the right one just say it. And if you believe my doctrine was wrong I wish you could just say so. I would appreciate a direct answer.

I thought it was hypothetical to be honest. But if your doctrine is that there is the Father and the Holy Spirit only then I certainly dont agree. I dont think you needed clarity on this it should be obvious in all honesty.

sainted:

You see I can’t talk to God now as I am to you and confirm with him my ideas. And it’s just too late to wait for His judgement (after death) because by then the damage would have been done. That’s why He pours out His Holy Spirit amongst the faithful so that one another can profess the Truth and stand by the Truth in helping others.

Sure you can it’s called prayer. God can answer you and he will in his own way. So again what is the point here?

-D

 

[sainted]

Originally posted by DarrelI
I thought it was hypothetical to be honest. But if your doctrine is that there is the Father and the Holy Spirit only then I certainly dont agree. I dont think you needed clarity on this it should be obvious in all honesty.

Obvious? But it’s not that obvious to the muslims either honestly.
Besides I don’t think being honest is hypothetical. I still believe its the best policy.

Sure you can it’s called prayer. God can answer you and he will in his own way. So again what is the point here?

Who knows maybe this is the answer to my prayers. To ask you people out there who know better than me to help me with my views on the said doctrine.

The point is I really wanted you people when I first posted to tell me that there is nothing wrong with my doctrine according to your belief(s). On the other hand if it’s wrong, silly and stupid according to what you believe in I would appreciate it still very much if you pointed it out directly. And perhaps you could lead me on the appropriate path whether Islam or Christianity.

I dunno if I have made myself clearer this time.

 

[LuigiColetta]

sainted:

To those who are conversant with the trinity or the only one God belief as a prerequisite into gaining salvation … please answer my question.

If I agree on everything you hold as truth about God and his redemptive power for man irrespective of how that person sees God as, and I go about preaching that the catholic church is wrong about the trinity. I may also preach that the muslims are wrong about the only one God. Instead I preach based on my belief that there really are two God in one, namely God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

Would I still be saved when I’m summoned before God and inspite of all the good works I’ve done in my life in preaching God to all people I was rebuked on one count. That is I didn’t acknowledge Jesus as divine and as God the Son.

It’s easy and wrong to say that you will or won’t be saved. That is the honest truth! To believe is a process. Some of us are born into a faith and casually believe until God allows us to realize that we aren’t satisfied with things. Personally I first felt a real call by God when I was 10 or so. My parents and people around didn’t really encourage…except for my grandmother. When I moved to another country at 12 things just progressed further and further away from God…but I didn’t feel different. Then at around 18-25 I went through a journey of faith and still am going through (I am 31) The apostles went through a journey with Jesus and didn’t really believe who He really was until the resurrection and ascension, but even then some doubted.

A true believer goes through a journey to honestly believe in full. If you stick with the Church that Jesus promised to be with 'til the end of times under the leadership of Cephas who alone was given the Keys you will hopefully continue to believe in full the deposit of the faith. It’s like the disciples who followed Jesus until He told them the truth that they need to eat His Flesh and drink His blood or else. Most of them left! They didn’t understand Who was speaking. One asked Him to show him the Father, Jesus was amazed that he didn’t recognize Him yet. During the arrest and crucifixion, almost all of them just deserted him and were hiding. What if they just stuck around with the truth of Jesus? What if they told themselves…hmm, I find some things hard or difficult to believe, but I will still hang around Jesus and I trust in Him, then one day, while remaining in the truth, he/she may truly believe.

Peter, even though he didn’t fully believe when Jesus was talking about His flesh and His Blood, being True food and True drink, just trusted Jesus and responds: where else can we go? You have the Words of eternal life!!!

So my suggestion to you is to preach what you truly know to be the honest truth in your HEART! Are you sure that Jesus is not part of the Godhead? Look deep in your heart, you don’t have to answer to me, answer to Him. Can you say, with no doubt whatsoever that Jesus is not part of the Godhead? If you are not sure, then don’t preach. I would suggest also that you might spend most of your time to study in prayer about this truth!!! I think it might be a priority for you, but it can’t be the only one…

You can come to this knowledge just with the Scriptures. You can come to this knowledge just with the Tradition of the Church (not tradition with a small “t” but with a big “T”, the deposit of the faith) aproach all your thoughts and studies in prayer, asking God to reinforce you with His Spirit, the Holy Spirit and to guide you to the Truth, so you can be SET FREE! If the whole of Scriptures is too much to handle then start with the Gospel of John, whose main point is to show the divinity of Jesus. But it is shown basically throughout the new testament.

Well, sorry for writing so long, I just got carried away. It’s weird but most of this time I felt like I was in a trance… :whacky:

May the peace of the Risen Christ be with you and your whole family.

Your brother,
Luigi

 

[exoflare]

LuigiColetta:

It’s easy and wrong to say that you will or won’t be saved. That is the honest truth! To believe is a process. Some of us are born into a faith and casually believe until God allows us to realize that we aren’t satisfied with things.

Amen to that.

 

[sainted]

To exolfare, LuigiColetta and Darell,

**Hallo to you brothers and sisters in Christ. I must say thankyou to you all in sharing and enlightening me on the raised topic, helping and guiding me to the I guess one and only Truth of God for all of humanity, guarded and professed by the Holy Catholic Church. All Praises and Glory be to the Holy Spirit for having me reached this conclusion fast. What can I say ‘I’m your man.’

May God continue to speak in the heart of every man and woman discerning His Truth in this forum.

God bless this forum and all of you out there doing this good work as true disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Faithfully yours,**

 

[exoflare]

To exolfare, LuigiColetta and Darell,

**Hallo to you brothers and sisters in Christ. I must say thankyou to you all in sharing and enlightening me on the raised topic, helping and guiding me to the I guess one and only Truth of God for all of humanity, guarded and professed by the Holy Catholic Church. All Praises and Glory be to the Holy Spirit for having me reached this conclusion fast. What can I say ‘I’m your man.’

May God continue to speak in the heart of every man and woman discerning His Truth in this forum.

God bless this forum and all of you out there doing this good work as true disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Faithfully yours**,

Wow, you seem to have reached some sort of major decision quite fast. I’m sorry but for whatever reason I’m not too clear on what that decision was. Could you explain somewhat? In any case, you do seem to be more at peace now so I am happy for you.

 

[sainted]

I have so many friends: muslims, fundamentals, new age advocates and all. Guess we talk so much on religion that I found myself drifting, not to any particular direction though. Then I stumbled on this forum by the grace of God and found the answers by reading through most of the threads. Nonetheless I wanted to share some of my frustrations which I posted earlier on. Guess I drifted back where I was before. Thanks again and sorry for any offence I might have caused.

Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[H2O]

I believe the reason that Islam is growing faster than Christianity is because those who practice the faith are more faithful in their worship of God, as they understand him, than Christians are.

 

[StMarkEofE]

H2O:

I believe the reason that Islam is growing faster than Christianity is because those who practice the faith are more faithful in their worship of God, as they understand him, than Christians are.

What ever the reasons, it sure is working for the Muslim nations.

StMarkEofE

 

[exoflare]

H2O:

I believe the reason that Islam is growing faster than Christianity is because those who practice the faith are more faithful in their worship of God, as they understand him, than Christians are.

I think it’s mostly because they have a lot of kids. There are other factors, but that’s probably the main one.

 

[H2O]

StMarkEofE:

What ever the reasons, it sure is working for the Muslim nations.

StMarkEofE

It seems Muslim families provide a much more stable atmosphere for their children than Christians. Not to mention that abortion and sodomy are much more prevalant in “Christian” countries than Islamic countries.

 

[StMarkEofE]

exoflare:

I think it’s mostly because they have a lot of kids. There are other factors, but that’s probably the main one.

Gee, that used to be the reason why the Catholics became a major religion in America. But large families in Catholic households are not more to be found.

StMarkEofE

 

[exoflare]

H2O:

It seems Muslim families provide a much more stable atmosphere for their children than Christians. Not to mention that abortion and sodomy are much more prevalant in “Christian” countries than Islamic countries.

There’s really no such thing as a “Christian” country, though. Theocracy isn’t a tenet of the faith. Besides, I don’t think there’s any country nowadays where the majority of the people even follow Christianity.

 

[exoflare]

StMarkEofE:

Gee, that used to be the reason why the Catholics became a major religion in America. But large families in Catholic households are not more to be found.

StMarkEofE

Yeah, no kidding! Thanks to the increased emergence of the “culture of death” in America, those days are a memory (though it was back before my day, in all honesty). Except for people like my friend’s parents… they have 10 children!

Like I said though, the large number of children Muslims average is IMO the main reason, but not the only one. Apostasy being considered a capital punishment can’t help either, for example.