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alphawoman
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This.
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alphawoman
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[SIGN][/SIGN]
And this.
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alphawoman
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Excellent post. I was primarily tackling the DUI angle, and you’ve covered the moral side cogently.
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Allegra
Guest
Absolutely. That’s why authority figures exist. If people took responsibility for their own harmful actions instead of saying, “Lighten up, it was a joke,” we wouldn’t need authority figures. Unfortunately, we live in the world where immature men to immature things and then call it “tattling” if their victim complains that they have been hurt and embarrassed. The pastor has a legitimate need to know that this sort of thing is going on. It isn’t “tattling”.
Furthermore, this situation easily meets any standard of sexual harassment I’ve ever seen. I’d like to know what you consider sexual harassment if not several men sending sexually suggestive texts in order to embarrass an innocent woman. ANY employer would be obligated under law to fire an employee who was directly involved in this. The OP was publically embarrassed in her own parish. This is actually a serious matter.
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EasterJoy
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The husband’s “apology” included a) not telling her that he was the one who handed his phone over and suggested that his friends text his wife as a prank and b) getting mad at* her *for not tolerating it when he and his friends obviously don’t feel remorse for what they did. (When you’re still laughing at your victim’s expense at how funny your cruel little prank was, that is not remorse. This really hurt her. You do get that, right? I don’t think her husband or his friends get that.)
Remember that she did not go immediately to anyone else–I think you call it “tattling”–but was confronted by the wrong-doers exulting about how funny it was to do this to her. They had their chance to repent, and they wanted none of it. They totally do not get it, and they’d do it all over again in a New York minute. What is she supposed to say to the next one of their wives they treat like this, when she finds that the OP just let it go with a “boys will be boys” attitude? You do realize that there *will be *someone else, if they don’t come around to seeing how out of line this was?
If you are the pastor, how would you like to find out that your “Catholic men’s group” is drinking too much and making lewd texts to the wives of one of the members? This is a group that supposedly represents Catholic manhood as it is understood under the watch of this pastor. Of course he has a right to know when they defend this kind of thing in the sober light of day. He will want to nip this disgrace in the bud, before it becomes a habit and part of the reputation and “standard operating procedure” of the parish. Heaven forbid that happen.
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UbiCaritas
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This.
OP, there’s another consideration. You mentioned that you’re very involved with this parish, and therefore, understandably, loathe to leave. However, if you’re going to have this brought up to you over and over again by those–I hesitate to call them men, but I’m not sure what the correct, yet forum-appropriate description would be–then what sort of a faith life will you have there, if you can expect the casual bit of sexual harassment when you go to coffee and donuts after Mass, the church picnic, your daughter’s first communion, and so on? This is totally unacceptable.
Further point: if they persist in bringing this up, your daughter will inevitably catch on to some of it, even if she doesn’t understand the meaning at the time. Do you want her to think that it’s okay to be treated like this, and that you’re supposed to be a “good sport” about being the object of crude sexual remarks by people you see at church weekly?
Please do show these screenshots to your priest and explaining what happened, though perhaps not mentioning names, only numbers (i.e., “There were five of them involved in this.”). Explain clearly and in detail that you feel sexually violated by this behavior. And yes, your husband should be there too: you clearly need marriage counseling. Should he not take you seriously, tell him that you’ll be informing the bishop. And do so. Why? Because this is happening under their watch, in the name of their church, and on their church’s property. They have the right to know what’s going on on their property, and the responsibility to do the right thing about it.
If this is the K of C, then I can assure you as someone whose family has been involved with the Knights since their founding that this behavior would be viewed as totally reprehensible by the majority of them. Please let headquarters know–Carl Anderson is, I believe, still the Supreme Knight, and the headquarters are located in New Haven, CT–about the behavior of their brother Knights in this council. That council may need to be suppressed/refounded later. Seriously. This is despicable.
Re the other wives: I wouldn’t start out to cause trouble in their marriages. However, after you’ve spoken to the pastor*, and if any of these…persons…bring this up to you again in any terms except a truly groveling apology, I think that an entirely appropriate response to a smirking, “So, what’d you think of those texts?” would be, “You know, I’d be quite interested to hear what Sally (your wife) thinks of them. Let’s go ask her, shall we? I have the screenshots right here.” Unless he then pushes it–and he won’t–you needn’t follow through on that, but I seriously doubt that he’ll bring it up again. Leaving aside anything else, you made a very interesting and accurate point early on: you thought the messages sounded “off” because the phrasing and such wasn’t what your husband would use…but it is what her husband would use.
One last point: if they’re willing to treat you like this based on consuming a few too many drinks, please never, ever, EVER leave your daughter alone with them for any reason whatsoever.
- I say “after” because these things can get ugly very fast. If the guys all band together, for instance, and insist that you’re just trying to break up their marriages and make trouble…well, it’s five–possibly six–against one. If you get your side in first, especially if your husband confirms what happened (and he’d darned well better be willing to admit at least that to the priest in confidence), you’ll be seen in a better light than if all five of them get worried, and go to the priest to claim that you’re trying to cause trouble based on no evidence.
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UbiCaritas
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Indeed. “Tattling” would be to tell the respective wives, the guys’ employers, the guys’ kids, and sending on screenshots to every member of the parish email chain. Reporting sexual harassment to the appropriate authority in whose building this occurred is not tattling; at a minimum, it’s advising him of possible liability.
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EasterJoy
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The OP is not saying that these other guys (married or not) are trying to violate wedding vows, so I do not see this as something that is going to be taken as a move to break up their marriages. These men made adolescent remarks that need to stop because they are disrespectful of a sister in Christ. They need to admit that this behavior is unbecoming a Catholic men’s group and they need to promise as a group that it will not happen again.
If the group can’t see its way to do this, tell the pastor. Absolutely I’d tell a man’s wife if he did something like this and would not apologize. If someone told me my husband did something like this, it would not be grounds for divorce. It would be grounds on which I would exert pressure on him to treat all other women as I would expect this “men’s group” to treat me. Of course the women would take it the the pastor if the men refused. What other choice do they leave?
Let us hope that once they realize this is not going to be tolerated, though, that it will not come to that.
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Beryllos
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This is an excellent thread, with many thoughtful posts by many forum members.
Ophelia, I understand that you have to perform a balancing act, considering your husband’s depression, the recent suicide of his uncle, and whatever else is “bubbling under the surface.” Still, I hope that you can, in the near future, work to correct the spiritual illness which is present in your parish and particularly in its Men’s Club. Others have given you much good advice on that.
Let us pray. Blessed are you, Lord God, master of all things and source of all that is good. We humbly ask that you bring healing and peace to Ophelia. Give her strength and good judgment in her current challenges. Heal and bless her husband. Work among the men of the parish, that they may bring out the best in each other. Protect the parish from evil. In all these matters, we rely on your help, through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Ophelia, I understand that you have to perform a balancing act, considering your husband’s depression, the recent suicide of his uncle, and whatever else is “bubbling under the surface.” Still, I hope that you can, in the near future, work to correct the spiritual illness which is present in your parish and particularly in its Men’s Club. Others have given you much good advice on that.
Let us pray. Blessed are you, Lord God, master of all things and source of all that is good. We humbly ask that you bring healing and peace to Ophelia. Give her strength and good judgment in her current challenges. Heal and bless her husband. Work among the men of the parish, that they may bring out the best in each other. Protect the parish from evil. In all these matters, we rely on your help, through Christ our Lord. Amen.
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pianistclare
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kptrs
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Honestly, this whole thing makes me sick because Ophelia is a kind, faithful, loving wife, mother, and overall person, and the way she’s been treated by her husband just makes me so sad. I spent some time reading some of her old posts and she’s been so kind and loving to her husband during his mental illness. And she’s also put up with a lot from him. This is definitely not the first time her husband has “apologized” and then accused her of overreacting and holding a grudge when she just wants to work through her hurt feelings. When you apologize, there are two parts: expressing sorrow, and then fixing the hurt you have caused. It is like putting a nail in the wall. When you apologize you take the nail out. But you still have to fix the hole in the wall. Don’t think hubby gets that. Not at all.
Ophelia’s kindness and compassion radiate through her posts like sun beams through the clouds. She’s always putting his feelings first, talking about how his depression is a factor in the wrong ways he treats her, never wants anyone to say anything bad about him, etc. And then he goes and does THIS…
And then she comes on here looking for support and some people tell her she needs to just let it go…
Makes me sick, sick, sick to my stomach.
I wonder if her husband knows how lucky he is. I just wonder…
Yes, he has depression, yes his uncle committed suicide, but at some point, there’s just no excuse for mistreating people…especially your spouse, your others half, the one you pledged to love forever, the most important thing to you other than God.
His illness does not exonerate him. He needs to own up to this, go to counseling, and start treating his wife right.
Just makes me sick.
Ophelia’s kindness and compassion radiate through her posts like sun beams through the clouds. She’s always putting his feelings first, talking about how his depression is a factor in the wrong ways he treats her, never wants anyone to say anything bad about him, etc. And then he goes and does THIS…
And then she comes on here looking for support and some people tell her she needs to just let it go…
Makes me sick, sick, sick to my stomach.
I wonder if her husband knows how lucky he is. I just wonder…
Yes, he has depression, yes his uncle committed suicide, but at some point, there’s just no excuse for mistreating people…especially your spouse, your others half, the one you pledged to love forever, the most important thing to you other than God.
His illness does not exonerate him. He needs to own up to this, go to counseling, and start treating his wife right.
Just makes me sick.
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WillyAL
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The only way this becomes a “serious matter” is if the OP allows people like you to goad her into making it a serious matter.
Unquestionably, the OP was the victim of an immature, juvenile joke by some drunken frat-boyish acting guys who obviously don’t know how to behave themselves. She is upset by the whole situation, her feelings are legitimate and they deserve validation. After sobering up, her husband was undoubtedly embarrassed by his behavior and he apologized. Perhaps you find the quality of his apology unsatisfying, and maybe you don’t think he has suffered enough, but it sounds to me like he made an honest effort. The OP can either accept his apology (and accept the fact that it’s the best apology she’s likely to get) or she can allow people like you to feed her anger and let the whole silly, stupid matter escalate into a marriage-threatening situation that didn’t have to happen.
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kptrs
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The part that you aren’t understanding is that in his so-called apology, he left out the tiny little detail that he offered his phone to these guys and essentially initiated the whole darn thing. That’s not a legit apology in my book. Not in the least. Then, when she finds out the whole story, she’s more upset, wants another apology (totally understandable), and she just gets yelled at. Not good, not good, not good, not good.
I really don’t think you get it.
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EasterJoy
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Tell me how you explain to your pastor that you knew that his Catholic “men’s” group was acting like immature, juvenile, drunken “frat boys” who “obviously don’t know how to behave themselves,” to the point that the majority of them offered no apology to her at all, but rather crowed to her face about how funny it was, and you said nothing to him about it. Remember: the crowing happened when they were sober. If they were apologetic, so that she decided it would not be repeated, fine. The pastor would understand that. If they were unapologetic? He deserves to know, because his “men’s group” is out of control.
As for her husband’s “apology,” when his apology proved to be too lame–and do not forget that he forgot to mention his central part in this little “prank”–he got angry with her about it! The thing that threatens this marriage won’t be that she won’t tolerate being treated with disrespect. The thing that would threaten her marriage is if her husband stubbornly backs up his so-called “Catholic men” friends in thinking that she is a bad sport if she doesn’t!
She deserves assurance that this is not going to happen again. If the men’s group wants to invite her to a meeting so they can apologize to her, fine. Otherwise, of course she ought to tell the pastor about it. There was no excuse for it in the first place. She’s giving them a pass by not having told Father about it already.
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EasterJoy
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The more I think about this, the more I think about how angry and profoundly disappointed any pastor would be to find out the men he trusted to act like Catholic adults and examples for the young men in the parish did something like this, let alone that they were patting themselves on the back about it in public–and at a parish event, no less!–after having a night to reflect on what they did. Every single priest I can think of would be beside himself. This is not how any woman should ever be treated by a man who presents himself in public as a follower of Christ. It is beyond the pale. That her husband would defend those who treated his wife like this, let alone that they did it at his behest? It beggars belief.
I mean, really. Ask these guys to sit in front of the tabernacle and say, “I did it for you, Lord, to please you, and for the sake of your Body, the Church.” Does this “joke” pass that test? Does their apology pass that test? Could the wife, having finally told the pastor, sit in front of the tabernacle and tell the Lord that she was finally forced to tell for just those reasons? Yes. Yes, she could.
I mean, really. Ask these guys to sit in front of the tabernacle and say, “I did it for you, Lord, to please you, and for the sake of your Body, the Church.” Does this “joke” pass that test? Does their apology pass that test? Could the wife, having finally told the pastor, sit in front of the tabernacle and tell the Lord that she was finally forced to tell for just those reasons? Yes. Yes, she could.
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Xantippe
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I suspect that the OP’s husband’s livelihood is connected to staying on the right side of his fellow men’s group members, so I suspect that is a big piece of what’s going on here.
He isn’t standing up to these men, and he is trying to please them in unsuitable ways, because he is dependent on them for his livelihood. Which just adds a whole 'nother layer of ick to the situation.
If that is the case, it would be a really good idea for him to find a different source of income, because this situation is spiritually toxic.
(OP, you don’t have to tell me if I’m right, but feel free to say if I’m wrong.)
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EasterJoy
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How many other indignities will he see heaped on his wife in order to “protect their livelihood”?
That fellow really needs to find a mirror and ask himself these questions. It is time that these guys leave behind the wants of boys and start expecting themselves to fulfill the duties of men. Whenever a man fails in maturity, after all, it is a question of whether he wants to be a boy or a man, whether he will choose the license of an unbeliever or the cross of a believer. There is no having it both ways.
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truetofaith
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The OP’s husband must be a real jerk, who has no respect for his wife. Even under the influence of alcohol…a guy may call his wife & tell her to get ready for a wild night…but to have his friends impersonate him…is kind of sick! A normal guy wouldn’t stoop this low. Then throw in the fact they are a Church “men’s group,” makes it very bizarre. 
I like fun & teasing, but something like this would not be on my list!
I like fun & teasing, but something like this would not be on my list!
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EasterJoy
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Stubbornly acting like a jerk once because doing otherwise requires humbling yourself in front of people you wanted to impress and actually being a jerk are not the same thing. The OP would do well to realize that this may be an isolated blind spot that comes from one area of bad formation in this group or one bad set of decisions feeding one on the other that her husband hasn’t quite comprehended, and not something she should extrapolate to reflect their character from top to bottom. After all, the reason she recognized the texts as bogus from the very start is that they would have been out of character for her husband. He is not a brute or a cretin.The OP’s husband must be a real jerk, who has no respect for his wife. Even under the influence of alcohol…a guy may call his wife & tell her to get ready for a wild night…but to have his friends impersonate him…is kind of sick! A normal guy wouldn’t stoop this low. Then throw in the fact they are a Church “men’s group,” makes it very bizarre.
I like fun & teasing, but something like this would not be on my list!
IOW, not tolerating this does not mean she has to condemn either her husband or the whole group. The thing that is she is not tolerating is the sentiment that the act was “not that bad,” not the reality that people sometimes fail to use good judgment when trying to have fun. The best possible outcome is to do what is necessary to ensure it is a one-time thing, and then to let it drop as an unfortunate domino set of bad decisions that taught their lesson, were cleaned up, and can safely be forgotten.
I think the best course is calm, gentle, and yet resolute that this will not be allowed to pass as if it was appropriate or tolerable behavior. Stay calm, but stay with it. The truth is, if she remains calm and avoids all appearance of wanting vengeance, it will make her point that she deserves to be treated with dignity and respect due to a Christian woman all the more loudly.
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