I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

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it’s very difficult to answer your question because being ingrafted into Christ means two different things to me and you. I’m sure you can understand that. I don’t believe someone who is part of the invisible church can be seperated from Christ from the point of his new birth to all eternity. Does that help?
 
ME FIRST! 😉 I have asked about six times now for that “Trinity” verse. :whistle:
Pixie Dust, I don’t think any Catholic Apologist will deny that through the Scriptures alone we can find the doctrine of the Trinity. I can show Scriptures to support the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity to LDS Christians. We do not have to rely on extra-biblical sources (tradition) to find the Trinity in the Scriptures. But thanks for sharing that point. Here’s a challenge for you. If you were debating LDS Christians, would you be able to defend the Trinity and the deity of Christ with only your Holy Bible? I can do it, by the grace of God, with a Mormon Bible and a JW Bible.
 
it’s very difficult to answer your question because being ingrafted into Christ means two different things to me and you. I’m sure you can understand that. ** I don’t believe someone who is part of the invisible church can be seperated from Christ from the point of his new birth to all eternity.** Does that help?
That’s close, and it will do.
So, you don’t believe one ingrafted into Christ can be cut off.

Paul in Rom 11:
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off
.

Paul’s words contradict your position.
 
Pixie Dust, I don’t think any Catholic Apologist will deny that through the Scriptures alone we can find the doctrine of the Trinity. I can show Scriptures to support the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity to LDS Christians. We do not have to rely on extra-biblical sources (tradition) to find the Trinity in the Scriptures. But thanks for sharing that point. Here’s a challenge for you. If you were debating LDS Christians, would you be able to defend the Trinity and the deity of Christ with only your Holy Bible? I can do it, by the grace of God, with a Mormon Bible and a JW Bible.
Well then, by all means, please show me where to find “Trinity” in the Bible.
 
Pixie Dust, I don’t think any Catholic Apologist will deny that through the Scriptures alone we can find the doctrine of the Trinity. I can show Scriptures to support the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity to LDS Christians. We do not have to rely on extra-biblical sources (tradition) to find the Trinity in the Scriptures. But thanks for sharing that point. Here’s a challenge for you. If you were debating LDS Christians, would you be able to defend the Trinity and the deity of Christ with only your Holy Bible? I can do it, by the grace of God, with a Mormon Bible and a JW Bible.
So, early Christians should not have had any problems with Christians misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting the nature of Christ and God?
 
it’s very difficult to answer your question because being ingrafted into Christ means two different things to me and you. I’m sure you can understand that. I don’t believe someone who is part of the invisible church can be seperated from Christ from the point of his new birth to all eternity. Does that help?
🤷 That’s not what Christ says:

2**"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

Christ clearly identified the True Vine as being Himself, not the visible church. The branches are those united to the person of Christ, not the visible church. “In Me” is a reference to Christ and union with Him, not membership in a congregation. If "in Me’ meant membership in a congregation (visible church), then that would mean that the power to bear fruit is derived from membership in a congregation and not union with Christ.

God Bless,
Michael
 
That’s close, and it will do.
So, you don’t believe one ingrafted into Christ can be cut off.

Paul in Rom 11:

…19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either…
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off
.

Paul’s words contradict your position.
I told you I believe in the invisible church my friend. Paul needs to understood in proper context. Here is Paul with all of Romans 11. Actually, Romans 11 needs to be understood in the light of the entire book of Romans. But if you want a shortcut, maybe you can read Romans 9, 10, and 11 together for a different insight.

The Remnant of Israel
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion [2] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [3] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: [4] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now [5] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.👍

Keep wrestling with the Scriptures because faith comes by hearing… and hearing by the Word of God (Holy Scriptures). 🙂
 
Well then, by all means, please show me where to find “Trinity” in the Bible.
For the deity of Christ, try the gospel of John. For the deity of the Spirit, see the book of Acts. But, you can actually start to see the godhead in the book of Genesis. 🙂
 
🤷 That’s not what Christ says:

2**"Every branch in Me **that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Christ clearly identified the True Vine as being Himself, not the visible church. The branches are those united to the person of Christ, not the visible church. “In Me” is a reference to Christ and union with Him, not membership in a congregation. If "in Me’ meant membership in a congregation (visible church), then that would mean that the power to bear fruit is derived from membership in a congregation and not union with Christ.

God Bless,
Michael
I didn’t think Paul wrote John 15, did he? 🤷 We need to manage how much we can handle. I would love to discuss the Gospel of John when we are done with Paul.
 
For the deity of Christ, try the gospel of John. For the deity of the Spirit, see the book of Acts. But, you can actually start to see the godhead in the book of Genesis. 🙂
You said that “Trinity” was in the Bible. Chapter and verse, please.
 
You said that “Trinity” was in the Bible. Chapter and verse, please.
He never said that the word “trinity” was in the Bible, simply the concept. Namely, he was asserting that the deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit can be found directly in scripture…would you deny that?
 
My how you are sidestepping and twisting Scripture - but I’m certain you already know that…
The Remnant of Israel
11:1-10

Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion [2] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles.
Who are “you Gentiles”? The addressees of this epistle - the Christians at Rome.
In asmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches
 
He never said that the word “trinity” was in the Bible, simply the concept. Namely, he was asserting that the deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit can be found directly in scripture…would you deny that?
I absolutely affirm that! That’s the not the point at all. Reformed said, in this post, “You will find sola scriptura Christians can document the Holy Trinity through the Scriptures alone.”
 
I absolutely affirm that! That’s the not the point at all. Reformed said, in this post, “You will find sola scriptura Christians can document the Holy Trinity through the Scriptures alone.”
Yes? That isn’t a claim that the words “Holy Trinity” appear in scripture.
 
Yes? That isn’t a claim that the words “Holy Trinity” appear in scripture.
And if that’s the case, a person who is truly and honestly “Sola Scriptura” shouldn’t have the word “Trinity” in their vocabulary, especially since it’s a word that comes from Catholic Tradition. 😉
 
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cfrancis:
Paul speaks if the Christians’ faith in Christ

Christ will not spare the Christians from what? The fate of those branches broken off (see v17 above)

How do these Christians remain on the root and not “cut off”? Is it through faith alone? Paul doesn’t say that!

Paul speaks very clearly, and he very clearly does not agree with your theology.
Earlier, in Romans 8, Paul states that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God in Christ.

Therefore, his statements in chapter 11 concerning being “cut-off” cannot mean a loss of salvation.

The difficulty is yours, in that you see only one possible meaning—the justified believer can lose his salvation—when there is certainly more than one possible meaning.
 
Earlier, in Romans 8, Paul states that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God in Christ.
If a person falls into sin, and falls from grace, it’s not because God doesn’t love them anymore.
Therefore, his statements in chapter 11 concerning being “cut-off” cannot mean a loss of salvation.
The difficulty is yours, in that you see only one possible meaning—the justified believer can lose his salvation—when there is certainly more than one possible meaning.
“Lose” isn’t really the right word for it. We reject our salvation when we choose to sin, and never repent, rather than serve the Lord.
 
Pixie Dust said:
“Lose” isn’t really the right word for it. We reject our salvation when we choose to sin, and never repent, rather than serve the Lord.

Therefore, his statements in chapter 11 concerning being “cut-off” cannot mean a rejection of salvation.

The difficulty is yours, in that you see only one possible meaning—the justified believer can reject his salvation—when there is certainly more than one possible meaning.
 
That’s a vaild point. This is just a thread to help us grow in Christ. You have the apparent Free Will to participate according to the OP, or you have the freedom to start a new thread. Do you feel this thread is stacked against the Roman Catholic Faith? 🤷
YES!!! Of course! It is made by a Protestant. It puts forth Protestant error. It assumes that a faith tradition based on disobedience and ego can teach infallibly. But the Pope cannot.

The demon lead Luther to satisfy his massive ego. And the demon continues to lead today. Yes, I said it: Demon.

If you reject the authority behind the bible, you reject the bible. Doesn’t stop me from praying for you.
 
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