I am outraged!!!

[Gottle_of_Geer]

watcher:

Yeah I guess your right.
My tone is also impatient, arrogant, intolerant, opinionated…just add more if you want to. Or better yet - don’t. I’m sure you’ve more important things to do than squabble with the likes of me (no, I’m not being sarcastic).
So I will apologise to you, and annie.
I will crawl back under the rock from which I came from and wither and die (see I’m also self-pitying).
I AM PATHETIC.
Please ban me. Really.

I need help…but I don’t think God wants to know. Is that predestination?

No, it’s not predestination - Predestination implies that God is infinitely wise, good, and all-knowing. Nor does predestination imply that God trashes people: not if they are gay, not if they are arrogant, opinionated, or anything else. It can’t, because God is infinte goodness & Love. God does not make trash - ever. ==

 

[Werner]

Exporter:

Werner,

Er, Ah, it was not someone attending Mass. This is not about an individual.

As I read it, the Mass was organized for and attended by homosaxuals and their live-ins. It actually was a Mass specifically for practicing homosexuals.

If that is acceptable to you, how do you feel about an organized Mass specifically for Abortionists.

How would i feel?
Oh well, let me just quote Jesus himself:

"(Mark 2:16-17) And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Werner

 

[Leah_Mommy_of_2]

Even though this is my first thread, this is a new name, since I had gotten rid of my old email addy and had forgotten my password!

It makes my heart sad to see brother and sisters which we ARE talk to each other in such a way. Such sarcasm and nastiness. Makes me wonder why I bothered to come to this board again.

If you don’t agree with each other, FINE, but don’t disrespect each other.

P.S. Being a homosexual isn’t wrong, but homosexual relations is…how many percent of homosexuals do you think ARE having relations?

 

[Brendan]

puzzleannie:

unless those attending this Mass were engaging in sinful actions at the time, .

Correct, if someone at Mass is saying they are in a Homosexual relationship, then they are on the Fast Track to Hell.

The same is true if someone is saying they are in an Adulterous Relationship.

If they choose to remain in such a Intrinsically Disordered state, they not in a state to recieve Communion.

If they make there disorderd state manifest, then it is the duty of all Catholics to prevent them from doing damage to their soul by recieving the Eucharist, using reasonable methods.

It is an Act of Love and Mercy to do so.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

‘Gay’ and ‘lesbian’ refer to people whose ORIENTATION leads them to be sexually tempted by members of their same gender. The words are often used by perfectly sound organizations ministering to those trapped in homosexuality, because the terms are ‘preferred’ by homosexuals themselves. Nothing in the initial post suggested that the ministry involved did not advocate a chaste lifestyle. Subsequent posts indicate that the ministry does NOT advocate such and is militating for the ‘recognition’ of homosexuality. Those posts also strongly suggest that this is an Anglican ‘ministry’ and ipso facto not in union with the Roman Catholic Church.

“Gay” and “Lesbian” can refer to either “orientation” or the act itself. The group in question celebrates “Gay Unions” and has a “Gay Dating Club”. The C of E has ordained Gay and Lesbian “Priests” who were in active same sex relationships.

One can only conclude an encouragement to the practice from these facts. We know that All Sex outside of marriage is a sin and is defined as so by Sacred Scripture and the teaching of the Church NO matter how well intentioned, and that all Gay Sex is outside of marriage.

There’s a line in the BCP 1928, “God desireth not the death of a sinner, but that he should turn from his wickedness and live.” On the basis of that and various Scriptures, I believe that we are to pray for all involved, praying that God would lead them to repentence.

The Law tells us where these people are going, and that should bring us to tears for their souls. The Law may prove useful in bringing them to repentence, but using it as a bludgeon after they have been broken before God is not only uncharitable, it is unneeded and harmful.

So, please pray for them.

In Him, Michael

 

[Werner]

Brendan:

Correct, if someone at Mass is saying they are in a Homosexual relationship, then they are on the Fast Track to Hell.

The same is true if someone is saying they are in an Adulterous Relationship.

If they choose to remain in such a Intrinsically Disordered state, they not in a state to recieve Communion.

If they make there disorderd state manifest, then it is the duty of all Catholics to prevent them from doing damage to their soul by recieving the Eucharist, using reasonable methods.

It is an Act of Love and Mercy to do so.

I truly admire you for knowing so very well who is going to hell and who isn’t. But i also beg you not to be too sure about that.

Again: Jesus ate with the sinners. What is wrong with a mass for homosexuals who, even though they are homosexual, want to live their Catholic faith?

The church invites everybody to mass, and as you are worried about them sinners receiving eucharist i’d like you point you to the Lord who advised us not to care about the splinter in the eye of our brother, but rather think about our own sins.

There is nothing wrong with gays and lesbians having a mass for them and their families, and i’m pretty sure Jesus is happy to see them comming to visit and adore Him, rather than to see them locked out from His house.

Werner

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Werner:

How would i feel?
Oh well, let me just quote Jesus himself:

"(Mark 2:16-17) And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Werner

Werner:

The scriptures really are quite clear on this one. If you’re a practicing fornicator/idolator/homosexual/adulterer/etc. I can invite you over to my house, eat dinner with you, show in you The Torah where you’re setting yourself up to go to hell (Remember those people knew the Torah when they were listening o Jesus & had no need of such instruction, but most people don’t know the Torah today), and then show you how the great gift of God can save you from that. I can pray with you, and even have a priest available to hear your confession.

But, under NO circumstances am I to allow you to receive the Eucharist so long as I know that you are engaging in that activity, because you will be eating and drinkling damnation on yourself (I Cor. 11: 29-30), and I would be committing a sin by knowingly allowing that (Ezekiel 3: 17-21). This passage in Ezekiel is especially true for any member of the clergy.

This isn’t a matter of bringing the Gospel to you, which is what Jesus was doing which the people he was associating with, or a matter of demonstrating the difference between the New and Old Covenants. This is a matter of making sure that someone in a very bad situation doesn’t make it much worse. The Scriptures are quite clear on this, along with the Tradition of the Church.

There’s a saying in Social Work and Medicine, “First, DO NO HARM.” By giving them the Eucharist, not only was the Anglican Priest pretty much legitimized their lifestyle and acrtivities, which are contrary to Scripture, he also had them “Eat and drink damnation to themselves”, which is a very grave situation.

He did REAL HARM, harm he didn’t need to do if he wasn’t trying to legitimize their lifestyle and activiites.

God is compassionate and merciful, but He is also JUST, and that mercy COST HIM A REAL PRICE! You may want to see Mel Gibson’s movie, “The Passion of the Christ” to get an idea of that price.

In Him, Michael

 

[Werner]

As you are so very relying on the Old Testament (even calling it Thora) i’m sure you also don’t eat a cheeseburger, because it is an abomination (even if you leave the bacon away).

jokes aside, I can tell you that i don’t know who will go to hell, not at all, and i hope you won’t have too many surprises when it comes to you to be judged as you seem very sure about it.

I surely hope for the mercy and grace of God, but there is not one single man on earth i am able to say “he will go to hell” and, with all respect, neither are you.

I for myself don’t judge as advised by Christ, and when i see how fast many here are with judging i’m not sure if everybody understood what Jesus meant by that.

Werner

 

[ja3712]

This thread is pathetic. Im sure there are more important things in the world than homosexuality. Some people feel superior in calling other people “sinners on a fast track to hell.” It makes you feel good to think you are better than other people. Just thank God that you are lucky to be heterosexual. The state of sexual orientation has nothing to do with moral integrity, so never assume you are “more moral” than homosexuals just be cause you are not homosexual.

 

[Brendan]

Werner:

I truly admire you for knowing so very well who is going to hell and who isn’t. But i also beg you not to be too sure about that.

Again: Jesus ate with the sinners. What is wrong with a mass for homosexuals who, even though they are homosexual, want to live their Catholic faith?

The church invites everybody to mass, and as you are worried about them sinners receiving eucharist i’d like you point you to the Lord who advised us not to care about the splinter in the eye of our brother, but rather think about our own sins.

There is nothing wrong with gays and lesbians having a mass for them and their families, and i’m pretty sure Jesus is happy to see them comming to visit and adore Him, rather than to see them locked out from His house.

Werner

Well, it is not I who heading towards Hell, it’s God’s Church. As mentioned above, even the Church doesn’t know if a person will end up there; there is the hope that they will reform their lives. Many saints have done just that.

But the Church makes very clear what actions cause the death of the soul. A death that can only be restored by repentance. And the Church is very clear on what happens if a person is called to Judgement with such sin remaining.

And if you read my post, I mentioned nothing about opposing gays at Mass.I agree it is a good idea. It is at Mass that they can learn how sin damages the soul. I refered only to the reception of Communion. there is a difference between the two.

The Church, again, is very clear that the reception of Communion by those in manifest (publicly know or presumed) sin is to be prevented out of Charity.

 

[Brendan]

Werner:

As you are so very relying on the Old Testament (even calling it Thora) i’m sure you also don’t eat a cheeseburger, because it is an abomination (even if you leave the bacon away).

Werner

The Ceremonial Law has been replaced (the laws of unclean vs. clean, feasts and ceremony etc…)

The Moral Law of the Old Testament remains intact. It is part of the Natural Law that applies to all people, places and times. The Moral Law is the required human response to Will of God and does not Change.

 

[Brendan]

ja3712:

This thread is pathetic. Im sure there are more important things in the world than homosexuality. …

There is nothing more important than the salvation of a soul. This applies to anyone in mortal sin

. The state of sexual orientation has nothing to do with moral integrity, so never assume you are “more moral” than homosexuals just be cause you are not homosexual.

Orientation? No, there is nothing immoral about having SSAD. It is acting on those impulses, to enter into a homosexual relationship, that is immoral and deadly.

I certainly don’t assume I am more moral than anyone else. I fail and falter. That’s why there is regular Confession. So that I can be cleansed and forgiven. Why would I not want to share that gift with others??

When someone is hurting, and you know of a fantastic doctor. Would you not do your best to take them there.

Doing so certainly doesn’t imply you yourself don’t need treatment, in fact that how you know where the doctor is and how good the treatments are.

And if you knew a person suffered from an ailment, would you not also do you best to see that the person doen’t make their condition worse? Would you not prevent them from taking medicine that would be poisonous in their current condition. But seeing the doctor first would help them get proper medicine?

So why should I not do that with the Eucharist?

 

[TheGarg]

Originally Posted by watcher
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2396 (114 bytes ) preview document matches
6 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices …
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2396.htm

First off, “homosexual” is used as an adjective

**2adjective **Function: noun
: a word belonging to one of the major form classes in any of numerous languages and typically serving as a modifier of a noun to denote a quality of the thing named, to indicate its quantity or extent, or to specify a thing as distinct from something else]

, and the word “sins” is used as the plural of the noun “sin”. As a matter of fact, “sin” is a thing, so it is always noun. [Granted it can be used as an adjective ONLY if it is given a suffix i.e. “sin+ful” “His ways are sinful”]. So it is not the “homosexual [noun]” that is the “sin”, but but the “homosexual [adjective] practices”.

You bold-faced the adjective “homosexual practices”] without the boldfacing the noun that it modified, or described “homosexual practices”], and by doing so attempted to change the meaning of the sentence, and or proclamation in its entirety, to benefit you argument. You failed.

You spit hate for your fellow man, broken as we are, as if you yourself are not broken. Are you Jesus? NO! Therefore you are broken, and like the rest of us will always be broken.

So I would suggest you change your attitude to be more compassionate towards your fellow man. Inspire them with your love, not your hostility.

JKirkLVNV:

He was also citing the Catechism, which states that gays are to be rec. with respect and (you might want to sit down for this) love…Christian love.

Hate the sin, Not the Sinner!!!

Peace of the Lord be with you,

Christ’s Love.

NotSoBigDan

 

[walter.gonzalez]

NightRider:

Amen! Right on, puzzleannie! I totally agree with you on this one!

Well spoken NightRider.

Also I take issue with the unloving tone of the original post. Are we concerned and saddened about sin or angry and hateful of a group of fellow humans?

 

[walter.gonzalez]

puzzleannie:

how fortunate you are to have inside knowledge of who is on the fast track to hell. Even the Catholic church never claimed to know for certain who is in hell, got yer own little source of revelation, eh? newsflash, being homosexual is not a sin, worshipping in the Catholic church in the company of other homosexuals is not a sin. Worshipping in the Catholic church in the company of sinners is not a sin, since we all do every Sunday, as we are all sinners. get a grip.

Well spoken puzzleannie.

Also the tone of the original post doesn’t seem loving to me. Are we concerned and saddened by sin or angry and hateful at a group of fellow humans? The image of Jesus drawing in the sand while the mob clamors for stoning comes to my mind.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Werner:

So there is a mass for gay Catholics, and instead of being happy about everybody who wants to come to meet God at a mass some here are “outraged”

Why does that remind me of the strory about the pharisee in the temple who thanked God that he is righteous and not a sinner like the tax collector who stood in the back of the temple praying silently “God have mercy with me sinner”

I get the impression some of you should re-read this story, and what Jesus says about the joy that is in heaven about everybody who comes home to God.

Just think about it before you get “outraged” about somebody attending a mass…

Werner

People who suffer from same sex attraction are welcome at every mass. To have a mass labeled for “gay” catholics gives the impression that the Church approves of an objectively sinful lifestyle.

One should be outraged if this mass is a tacit approval for mortal sin, which is what sex outside the context of marriage is.

People who practice a lifestyle incompatible with Christ’s teachings such as sex outside the context of marriage between a man and a woman should feel disenfranchised from the church; they should feel great sorrow. That sorrow can lead them to repentance, chastity and reunion with the Church and a confession which would lead to a reception of the Eucharist in God’s friendship.

That is the happiness we should pray for those who practice sinful lifestyles. We should not try to bend the Church or Mass, worship to God, to make such people think that sin is acceptible to God. Or that sin is no sin. The Church does them no service by condoning their lifestyle.

If it is not a genuine mass, but a meeting to worship, there could be some benefit, but that benefit would crumble if as part of this coming together includes an acceptance of sin.

Loving the sinner in this case means making it clear that the sin is in fact a sin. Christ sat with sinners but he also stated he was the Truth and his eating with the sinner was not a tacit approval of sin. Calling this service a Gay service indicates a tacit approval of this sin, which secular society already does not see as a sin; hence, the possibility for being lead astray when the world cries so loudly for sin is very great. Outrage here seems appropriate.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[Werner]

MichaelTDoyle:

People who suffer from same sex attraction are welcome at every mass. To have a mass labeled for “gay” catholics gives the impression that the Church approves of an objectively sinful lifestyle.

One should be outraged if this mass is a tacit approval for mortal sin, which is what sex outside the context of marriage is.

People who practice a lifestyle incompatible with Christ’s teachings such as sex outside the context of marriage between a man and a woman should feel disenfranchised from the church; they should feel great sorrow. That sorrow can lead them to repentance, chastity and reunion with the Church and a confession which would lead to a reception of the Eucharist in God’s friendship.

That is the happiness we should pray for those who practice sinful lifestyles. We should not try to bend the Church or Mass, worship to God, to make such people think that sin is acceptible to God. Or that sin is no sin. The Church does them no service by condoning their lifestyle.

If it is not a genuine mass, but a meeting to worship, there could be some benefit, but that benefit would crumble if as part of this coming together includes an acceptance of sin.

Loving the sinner in this case means making it clear that the sin is in fact a sin. Christ sat with sinners but he also stated he was the Truth and his eating with the sinner was not a tacit approval of sin. Calling this service a Gay service indicates a tacit approval of this sin, which secular society already does not see as a sin; hence, the possibility for being lead astray when the world cries so loudly for sin is very great. Outrage here seems appropriate.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

You should improve your knowledge about what a mortal sin is.
Das a mass for prisoners mean that the church approves on what they did?

When i read those posts here i can imagine really good why gay people rather want to have a mass for them instead of going there together with all those “loving brothers and sisters” in Christ…

Werner

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Werner:

You should improve your knowledge about what a mortal sin is.

One of us should. Sex outside the context of marriage IS a mortal sin, including masturbation.

The CCC
2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

Das a mass for prisoners mean that the church approves on what they did?

St. Paul was a prisoner if I remember correctly. What’s your point? If the Church gave a Mass welcoming Those who Murder and plan to continue to murder to come up and recieve the Eucharist, I think that would be an outrage.

If the church gives a mass for unrepentant people practicing sex outside of marriage to recieve communion that is an outrage to the Eucharist. Do you disagree?

When i read those posts here i can imagine really good why gay people rather want to have a mass for them instead of going there together with all those “loving brothers and sisters” in Christ…

Werner

I want all people to know and love Christ and to keep his commandments. I am a sinner myself, but I go to confession and I sincerely repent before receiving communion if I am conscious of mortal sin. I want everyone to be in God’s friendship. To do that we need to keep His commandments as best we can, not subvert them.

I repeat:
All people are welcome at EVERY mass!

Even if they are conscious of a sin or struggling with a lifestyle they can still recieve a blessing. The church welcomes all, but cannot by Christ’s promise Himself condone sin.

One last important note from the CCC

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[Werner]

MichaelTDoyle:

One of us should. Sex outside the context of marriage IS a mortal sin, including masturbation.

The CCC
2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

So you quote it yourself but don’t see it anyway.
Sex outside of marriage etc. is defined as a grave sin, not as a mortal sin.
There is no specific behaviour that is a mortal sin.
Each and every sin can be mortal, but no sin neccessarily is mortal.
Reread your catechism (canon 1857) to see the definition of a “mortal sin”.

With the conditions that are neccessary for a sin to be a mortal sin it depends on each and every sin and especially the person who commits it, most, if not all of the people we are talking about here do not commit mortal sins.

Werner

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
(emphasis mine)

The sin here is not the engaging of it, but the approval of the act as NOT sinful!

Although I stand corrected in characterizing grave and mortal as synonomous. They aren’t thank you for that, but the point still stands.