I am outraged!!!

[MichaelTDoyle]

most, if not all of the people we are talking about here do not commit mortal sins.

How do you know that? We are not the judge. Better to keep and proclaim the commandments than try to convince people that their sins are “ok” This is a terrible thing this church is doing, giving tacit approval of grave sin. It may be worse than the sin itself, because they are leading people to sin and reinforcing a lifestyle that is contrary, gravely contrary, to Christ’s teaching.

 

[Werner]

MichaelTDoyle:

How do you know that? We are not the judge. Better to keep and proclaim the commandments than try to convince people that their sins are “ok” This is a terrible thing this church is doing, giving tacit approval of grave sin. It may be worse than the sin itself, because they are leading people to sin and reinforcing a lifestyle that is contrary, gravely contrary, to Christ’s teaching.

Well, of course i don’t “know”, and neither are you, if somebody is comitting a mortal sin.

But i’ll explain you what my thoughts are about the case we are discussing about.

There is absolutely no reason why somebody who doesn’t care about the Lord, the church, and his soul, would want to attend such a mass.

So i believe the gay people going there do just this (care about), they are believers.

The only thought that makes sense for me is that those people *have come to a different view of homosexuality.*They most probably don’t see it as a sin, and i’ll tell you, i can fully understand any homosexual, who, after seriously asking his conscience might come to this conclusion.

The important thing is the serious examination of the conscience, and even the church teaches, that you must, under all circumstances, follow your conscience, even if it tell you to act against church teachings!

Of course i don’t know if all those people did seriously ask their conscience, *in dubio pro reo *i impute it.

And thus they don’t comit a mortal sin, because there is no consent to sin.

Of course it is possible that what they do is still a sin, but it is no mortal sin.

That are my thoughts about the topic, and i’m happy that those people come to mass. Only Jesus can see into their hearts, we shouldn’t be outraged, but leave it to him to judge, who told us not to judge others.

Werner

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Werner:

As you are so very relying on the Old Testament (even calling it Thora) i’m sure you also don’t eat a cheeseburger, because it is an abomination (even if you leave the bacon away).

jokes aside, I can tell you that i don’t know who will go to hell, not at all, and i hope you won’t have too many surprises when it comes to you to be judged as you seem very sure about it.

I surely hope for the mercy and grace of God, but there is not one single man on earth i am able to say “he will go to hell” and, with all respect, neither are you.

I for myself don’t judge as advised by Christ, and when i see how fast many here are with judging i’m not sure if everybody understood what Jesus meant by that.

Werner

Werner,

May I ask who you’re replying to, and why you can’t even show the respect to use the person’s name?

The Torah is a specific part of the OT, traditionally called the “First 5 Books of Moses” - It is not the entire OT, which the Jews call the TENACH. I used the term “Torah” because it very specifically says what the people Jesus talked to were under, what they understood and what they measured themselves against. All of those people Jesus spoke to and ate with knew they were Sinners in the eyes of the God and of the Law, and they were overjoyed at the Gift of God available to them in Jesus Christ.

What’s happened nowadays is that many of the people in the same positions have repeatedly maintained that what they’re doing isn’t Sin and that neither they nor their acts should be judged.

That’s where your letter come from, and that seems to be its basis. Meanwhile, you have no problem judging the PERSON you responded to the point that you refused to use his name or the citation. That you don’t like the fact that Scripture and Tradition have defined all of these things as sinful is not my problem. Your debate is with the Church and with God who made the rules in the first place.

The Scriptures are very clear that I am never to say that someone is definitely going to hell. But, they are also clear that I am obligated to say if I see that someone is doing something that is manefestly sinful (“a Mortal Sin”) which would tend to separate him/her from God. That’s also in Scripture (which I referenced).

If you differentiate between judging the ACT and the effects thereof (The Sin"), and judging the PERSON doing the act (“The Sinner”), I can’t help you. Werner, This is basic moral theology, and something you should have learned in Sunday School.

Regarding my relationship to God - that’s between me and my confessor. I know that I’m a Sinner saved by the Grace of God who has to work out his salvation in fear and trembling.

In Him, Michael

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Werner:

And thus they don’t comit a mortal sin, because there is no consent to sin.

Werner

Not so. A Catholic who has SSD is not invincibly ignorant and KNOWs that such an act is gravely disordered. Conscience is not simply what you think is right; conscience must be educated and trained to be in accord with God’s will. A Catholic who repudiates Church teaching is in a very difficult situation and cannot claim invincible ignorance, rather 1791 and 1792 apply. Like you, I cannot say that such a person is in mortal sin, but such a person is in a desperate straight for continuing in a grave evil and not conforming their conscience, for they have chosen not to serve.

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

And the clergy who confirm them in their rebellion are in an even worse state. A corrupt conscience is not a defense against the possibility of having mortal sin on your soul. If you are a Catholic you are called to obedience to the Lord and His commandments. Clergy who offer “Gay” mass without catechizing that such a lifestyle is intrinsically spritually wounding, perhaps separating them from God’s friendship is leading them astray.

In charity, invite all, but do not condone sin in the same breath you would worship God. That’s scary bad.

peace

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Werner:

So you quote it yourself but don’t see it anyway.
Sex outside of marriage etc. is defined as a grave sin, not as a mortal sin.
There is no specific behaviour that is a mortal sin.
Each and every sin can be mortal, but no sin neccessarily is mortal.
Reread your catechism (canon 1857) to see the definition of a “mortal sin”.

With the conditions that are neccessary for a sin to be a mortal sin it depends on each and every sin and especially the person who commits it, most, if not all of the people we are talking about here do not commit mortal sins.

Werner

Werner,

So, it’s OK to encourage people to engage in “GRAVE” Sin, but not in “MORTAL” SIN? Can’t you see that you’re playing with fire?

Werner, we’re dealing with people’s souls here, and we will have to give an account of whether we’ve directed people TOWARDS or AWAY FROM GOD! One day, we’re going to have to give account for this:

ÒIf I say to the wicked, ÔYou shall surely die,Õ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.Ó
Ezekiel 3:18-21 NAB

And then there’s Ezekiel 33: 1-19 which repeats the same admonition in different words.

Jesus didn’t throw those out when he said “Judge not, lest you be judged.”

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Go, and sin no more.” He also told Matthew to leave his Tax Table and a lucrative business to follow him. How does telling these people that what they’re doing is “OK” conform to these?

In Him, Michael

 

[jeffreedy789]

well. after all. the thread IS called ‘i am outraged!!!’

did you expect a civil discussion?

(this post is not directed at anyone in particular. just for the record, i’m glad that people with SSA want to go to mass. i know that what we’re talking about here is not mass, but an anglican service. homosexual activity is sinful, just as heterosexual activity outside of marriage is sinful. homosexual attraction is not sinful, but only unfortunate, especially in light of the gross generalizations and hatred rampant in the christian community. however, i hope that anyone who reads this thread who DOES experience SSA will realize that God loves you, He tells US His followers to love you, too, and He wants you to come to His church, to mass. if you’ve sinned, He wants to heal that wound through confession. God bless you.)

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Werner:

Well, of course i don’t “know”, and neither are you, if somebody is comitting a mortal sin.

But i’ll explain you what my thoughts are about the case we are discussing about.

There is absolutely no reason why somebody who doesn’t care about the Lord, the church, and his soul, would want to attend such a mass.

So i believe the gay people going there do just this (care about), they are believers.

The only thought that makes sense for me is that those people *have come to a different view of homosexuality.*They most probably don’t see it as a sin, and i’ll tell you, i can fully understand any homosexual, who, after seriously asking his conscience might come to this conclusion.

The important thing is the serious examination of the conscience, and even the church teaches, that you must, under all circumstances, follow your conscience, even if it tell you to act against church teachings!

Of course i don’t know if all those people did seriously ask their conscience, *in dubio pro reo *i impute it.

And thus they don’t comit a mortal sin, because there is no consent to sin.

Of course it is possible that what they do is still a sin, but it is no mortal sin.

That are my thoughts about the topic, and i’m happy that those people come to mass. Only Jesus can see into their hearts, we shouldn’t be outraged, but leave it to him to judge, who told us not to judge others.

Werner

Werner:

Whether or not an Act is a Sin and how much that Sin separates me from God is determined by God, the objective situation, my intent and the State of my soul at the time of the act. The First is knowable through Scripture and the Tradition of the Chruch and is known as “God’s Law”. The second requires discernment, and last 2 are simply unknowable. God’s Law doesn’t change according to my uninformed, rebellious, addicted or otherwise impaired conscience.

Regarding “Intent needed for Mortal Sin” - Listening to people like you describing how dang near impossible it is for people to form the intent need to separate themselves from God, I have to wonder why Jesus had to die?

I’m sorry, but I believe that intent comes by a LOT easier than you think it does, and that’s why we need God’s Grace and Mercy.

And that’s why, knowing what I do about what the Scriptures say about the power of the Eucharist and the necessity of being “Right with God” before we take it, I would not distribute Our Lord’s Body and Blood to those who I know are in rebellion against His Law.

That’s not only my opinion - on the topic of Abortion:

The Kerry Affair: What Ratzinger Wanted from the American Bishops by Sandro Magister
213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,42196,00.html

**Ratzinger-Kerry, Act II. The Well-Tempered Controversy
** by Sandro Magister
213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,42199,00.html

In HIm, Michael