I believe Jesus was never a god who became man

[planten]

Paars & Planten were CAF buddies and the only 2 Ahmadi muslim members on here.

Paars account went “under review” and it’s been like that for over a year or something like that.

Planten claims that Paars is banned… could be… but the account still reads “under review”.

Perhaps he want’s thread “buried” because Paars is not here to address the posts…

Quite right. That is what I wanted. I cannot become paarsurrey.

 

[planten]

J C, please see what you are suggesting, saying. You should know that Muhammad was not a student of Tanakh theology. He never went to school or took any lessons like Jesus did from his elders. Muhammad said that all Quran (every word) was revealed to him from God Almighty. Jesus could have specialised in the Tanakh teachings because Jesus was a Jew and he used to argue in the temples with the Jewish elders, learned men. Jesus was a teacher. He must have memorised the Tanakh by heart.

It is related somewhere in the bibleNT that Jesus went to Jerusalem with mother and father on some religious festival. He was then very young, may be 13 years old. After a few days, his mother and father left the city but they could not find Jesus. They thought he must have gone ahead of them.

They could not find him so they returned to the city and found Jesus sitting with the elders in the temple discussing things (religious matters) with the elders.

His mother (Mary) said to Jesus, " Where have you been. I and your father ( real father) have been looking for you all over the place."… So there are some lessons in such incidents for the observant Catholics, about who was Jesus and what did he used to do in young age.

Very little is available about Jesus in the bible. Nothing is known about the early 30 years except just a word or two in the bible. Nobody seemed to know Jesus for the first 30 years of his life. He was not known as God or son of God. During the last three years of his life, We see that noody addressed Jesus as God or son of God, such as “O God” “O son of God”. That was the topic started by paarsurrey. But he is gone for good. He had to leave the forum.

 

[planten]

I just saw this in one of Paarsurrey’s posts. Could he be a member of the Baha’i Faith? Buddha, Krishna, Jesus and Muhammad are among the 9 greatest men in that faith? Muslims usually don’t mention Buddha nor Krishna… (I know, though, that the founder of the Baha’i Faith were Muslims before they started it.)

Lapell, We are sorry to know that your sister died. Otherwise we could have learnt the names of the other great men in the books of the Baha’is. I hope Jesus must also be included in those Nine greats.

Budha and Krishna were definitely the prophets of God. No doubt about that. I heard that Baha’is take all the good things from all religions. Joseph Smith of the Mormons lived long before Bahaullah. I hope Bahaullah included Smith also in his good list.

 

[planten]

J C, I am surprised at your attack on me. If I believe Krishna and Budha as prophets of God, there is no harm. Karishna and Budha lived long before Muhammad and Jesus. So, what is the problem about Muhammad being the last prophet? Karishna and Budha were prophets before Muhammad. Budha had appeared 500 years before Jesus.

 

[wwolverine]

Hi

Thanks for you response. I cannot ,however, agree with you as it logically makes God a non-entity. God is only attributive and if God melts down to a human physical form; it relinquishes all attributes in this process one by one. in my opinion.

It was Paul who invented godhead for Jesus, only for his own ulterior motives. It is Paul’s weird concept and not a concept of Jesus he believed in.

If God becomes a man; who then controls the Universe, in the intermittent period; the Universe kept smoothly working while God was missing and became man.

If the Universe could do without God for a while; then logically it could do without it always.

I love Jesus a perfect man though.

Hi,

How foolish we people are isnt it that we can accept Clark Kent as a Journalist, and same Clark Kent as superman, when need arises. But when it comes to God, we cannot accept his duel nature.

How can people ever limit God?

 

[wwolverine]

J C, I am surprised at your attack on me. If I believe Krishna and Budha as prophets of God, there is no harm. Karishna and Budha lived long before Muhammad and Jesus. So, what is the problem about Muhammad being the last prophet? Karishna and Budha were prophets before Muhammad. Budha had appeared 500 years before Jesus.

So why is it that Islam forbids muslims from marrying Hindus and other religious people except Jews and Christians? They do follow their prophets, who must have been muslims too isnt it?

 

[planten]

So why is it that Islam forbids muslims from marrying Hindus and other religious people except Jews and Christians? They do follow their prophets, who must have been muslims too isnt it?

That is a big question (???) We hope it will be solved some day. The reason Muslims do not marry the hindu girls is that already we have plenty Muslim ladies waiting to be married. But you are raising a question of principle. Well, the hindus have not been specifically mentioned in Quran as people of the book even though they are people of book.

They do not hail from Abraham too. The hindus are very deeply openly active in Shirk i.e. worshipping the idols. Christians do not do that so much. Jews do not do any Shirk at all. Muslims are told never to marry any Mushrikah (Polytheist). That is an absolute order. So the question of going near a hindu girl does not arise. Otherwise they are all very beautiful and charming. The matters of faith and belief supercede all other desires.

I can give one final reason for not marrying the Hindu ladies. The hindu ladies are taught that they should never be touched by any Muslim. So the marriage to a hindu girl is out of question. Another thing is, we Muslims do not have anything in common with Hindus. Our spirituial line (leadership, messengers) is with the Jews and the christians, not with the hindus or Budhists.

Perhaps Quran does not forbid Muslims marrying Hindus and Budhists. It allows the Muslims to marry the pure ladies of the people of the book i.e. Jews and the christians. It allows such marriage. But does not forbid marraige to Hindus or Budhists. Islam forbids marriage to any polytheist.

There is a verse in the Quran which forecasts marriage amongst people of different nations.

 

[planten]

J C I love to believe in Krishna, Budha , Jesus and Muhammad. I do not have to worry about Joseph Smith as he is rather new one and has never contacted me. So I will keep away from Joseph Smith. But I will not challenge his claims. I will not oppose or ridicule him. His matter is with God whom he tried to represent.

For me Muhammad is not a prophet so It is of no concern to me ultimately if you believe he is or not but you have worded your reply to state what is the big deal about him been the last prophet. You know very well Planten that Ahmadis do not consider him the last prophet.

Ahmadis consider Muhammad as the last law bearing prophet. For you Muhammad is not a prophet at all. So you can forget about him being the last or least one. It should not be your subject of interest. Quran does not say that Muhammad is the last prophet. There is no such word in the Quran as “The last prophet.” That is only a derived meaning being used by majority muslims.

That is a good point and usefulness of Muslims having the original Quran in Arabic. We can always correct the matters by referring to the original book.

You appear to have a convoluted and poor understanding of Islam itself which is ironic considering your penchant for lecturing Christians about a faith you plainly know very little about.

I am an ignorant person, not better than any one else. I do not claim to know much about anything. So I have to listen to all of you for betterment of my knowledge. From your above para, it appears that you know more about Islam than I. So, you better start giving lectures about Islam on this forum from now on. I will relax and restrict my activity.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Lapell, We are sorry to know that your sister died. Otherwise we could have learnt the names of the other great men in the books of the Baha’is. I hope Jesus must also be included in those Nine greats.

Budha and Krishna were definitely the prophets of God. No doubt about that. I heard that Baha’is take all the good things from all religions. Joseph Smith of the Mormons lived long before Bahaullah. I hope Bahaullah included Smith also in his good list.

Are you kidding us Joseph Smith and now Budai;s and Knisna,You are one very confused person and I will pray for your soul,God help You

 

[arthra]

One late sister of mine had converted to Baha’ism and died a Baha’i nearly 22 years ago, may she rest in peace. That’s how I learned about their 9 greats.

Seems Baha’i Faith has come up a few times in these posts… please allow me to respond.

Baha’is accept that there are Manifestations of God that perfectly reflect the attributes of God to humanity… Now these Manifestationa are Perfect Mirrors…

In the Bible there are passages such as:

he will manifest his glory.

and I will manifest my holiness among you in the sight of the nations.

I will love him and manifest myself to him.

the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints.

These verses from the RSV are about God manifesting Himself … through say Jesus or a future Prophet and Manifestation.

Baha’is believe that the Buddha and Krishna were among these Manifestations but that Their original teachings were lost over time…

There were other Manifestations of God of whom we know very little today so not just “nine” as some believe… Nine is significant as it represents the Abjad reckoning of the name of Baha… just as numbers have significance in the Apocalypse.

Since Mormonism is a Christian denomination we Baha’is accept that it is not independent of Christianity. Joseph Smith we would say was a “seer” but not a Prophet or independent Manifestation of God.

• Art

 

[planten]

Seems Baha’i Faith has come up a few times in these posts… please allow me to respond.

…
There were other Manifestations of God of whom we know very little today so not just “nine” as some believe… Nine is significant as it represents the Abjad reckoning of the name of Baha… just as numbers have significance in the Apocalypse.

• Art

arthra, did you say that Baha represented the digit 9. I would say that Baha would be the digit 8. Abha would be the digit 9.

 

[schaick]

Hi

It is not difficult to understand in my opinion. The Catholics believe that Jesus was God who became man.

Why did he become a man and he did not become a woman or a neutral gender (neither a man nor a woman)? Why did he have the male sex organs when he could not use them? Was it a mistake of the Catholic God that Jesus had male organs without a purpose? The nature does not provide one with the parts that have no use. Since the Catholics say Jesus-god opted for being a man; it is a either a mistake on the part of Jesus-god to opt to become a man rather than a neutral gender or it is a failing on the part of the Jesus-man that he could not fulfill what was required of him from Jesus-god, in my opinion, or might be on the part of both.

I love Jesus so I don’t believe in such things and I would opt to defend Jesus against such faulty concepts attributed to him by Paul or his Church. This is however only a discussion to know the truth; no disrespect is intended to anybody or any faith.

Thanks

In the Quran we read-

Allah formed a clay body of a human and then blew his spirit directly into the clay thing, Adam.

Allah did not do these things to Jesus, but to Mary.

Muslims need to pray on this.

Why did allah bestow, convey, communicate Word and Spirit to Mary and not Jesus?

Where was the body of Jesus?

Mary was a virgin. The body of Jesus was not in Mary’s uterus until allah bestowed, conveyed, communicated, threw away his word and spirit to her.

Somehow the word and spirit of allah joined with the virgin Mary and Jesus was conceived.

Muslims and Christians both agree that there was no sexual relations between GOD/allah and Mary.

Yet, GOD is the Father of Jesus.

 

[schaick]

I have, however, to point out a fallacy in your above quote.

Jesus never read the NTBible; so it is not that significant to read it.

So, I don’t have to essentially open an NTBible and to read it.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

Of course Jesus didn’t read the NTBible- HE was GOD’s Word incarnate, in the flesh!

For a person to truly know Jesus you must open and read the Gospel - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

English
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew&version=NIV

Arabic
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew&version=ALAB

 

[schaick]

I would have believed them if Jesus would have written them or dictated them; but he obviously could not do that as he was there in India, didn’t know what is being written and attributed to him in his absence.

I love Jesus

Thanks

People are usually confused about this claim of Jesus being in India.

**It was for the years before His crucifixion from age of 12-30. **

There is no proof that it wasn’t just His teachings that made it to India. There have been many men named for Jesus, but supposedly he took the name Yuz Asaf.

 

[schaick]

I am not saying that the Quran is anything more then a man-made book, but check it out:

It was GOD’s plan for Jesus to be crucified.
3:54 And plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

The take here in Arabic means GOD caused Jesus to die and raising Him up:
3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

**Prophet, messangrs had been killed before. **

4.155 In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, “Our hearts are the wrappings”;- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

4:156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

4:157 That they said, “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Again a mention that GOD raises Jesus up!
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Mohammad mis-understanding that Christians believe that GOD is One- a True Unity4.171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not three : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs

10.094 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

19.33 “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life”!

19.34 Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute.

Because of the things said about Mary by the Jews this had to be added- Christians in no way believe that GOD had sexual intercourse with Mary:
19.35 It is not befitting to Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.

Foreshadowing of Jesus’ sacrifice:
37.106 For this was obviously a trial-
37.107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
37.108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:

 

[planten]

In the Quran we read-

Allah formed a clay body of a human and then blew his spirit directly into the clay thing, Adam.

There is no such thing in the Quran. It may be in the bible because bible says that Adam was the first man created.

Allah did not do these things to Jesus, but to Mary.

Muslims need to pray on this

.
We do not know what Allah did to Mary that He did not do to Jesus. Why we need to pray on something??

Why did allah bestow, convey, communicate Word and Spirit to Mary and not Jesus?

Where was the body of Jesus?

Please ask these questions from your God or Jesus who is everything. He is God and he is the son of God and they say he created everything. Perhaps Jesus created his mother too??

Mary was a virgin. The body of Jesus was not in Mary’s uterus until allah bestowed, conveyed, communicated, threw away his word and spirit to her

.

You are mistaken. That blowing of spirit was not to create anything in the womb. The breathing of spirit is to elevate a person to higher degree. It is nothing material. It is only spiritual matter. Breathing of spirit is to raise the spiritual status, not to make any one pregnant.

Somehow the word and spirit of allah joined with the virgin Mary and Jesus was conceived.

I do not believe any of that. The word and spirit are not to cause conception. You are going on a totally wrong line.

Muslims and Christians both agree that there was no sexual relations between GOD/allah and Mary.

Yes, that must be true. Why Allah would have sex with any lady?. The whole idea of such thing is ridiculous.

Yet, GOD is the Father of Jesus.

And Father is the God of Jesus. Jesus prayed to his Father in the garden before his arrest. But when Jesus was on the cross, he forgot his Father. He cried out to his God. “Eli Eli Lama sabaqatani??” O my God, O MY God, why have you forsaken me??

 

[planten]

I am not saying that the Quran is anything more then a man-made book, but check it out:

It was GOD’s plan for Jesus to be crucified.
3:54 And plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

I do not know why you have embarked on a mission of teaching about Islam. Everything happens according to Allah’s plans. But in the above verse,it is said that the enemies of Jesus made some plan (That was to crucify (kill Jesus on the cross) to prove that he was a cursed person, away fromthe Mercy of Allah.

Allah also planned i.e. to save His man Jesus from the ignoble death and Allah is the best of planners.

The take here in Arabic means GOD caused Jesus to die and raising Him up:
3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will cause you to die a natural death and raise thy soul to Myself ( in ranks) and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute

**Prophet, messangrs had been killed before. **

Yes, true. But that does not mean they were killed on the cross. That is not a desirable death. It is written in bibleOT that anyone killed on cross will be a cursed person.
Death is no problem. Even Jesus died later at an age of about 120 years. Only thng is that his enemies could not kill Jesus on the cross.

4.155 In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, “Our hearts are the wrappings”;- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

4:156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

4:157 That they said, “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

It is clear, shown bold in red color, “They killed him not”. That means Jesus was not (never) killed. If Jesus was killed then he was a false prophet by the ruling of Deut 18:20. That says “False prophet will be killed.”

Again a mention that GOD raises Jesus up!
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Quite true. Allah raised Jesus in ranks close to Himself. Only the soul is raised. Body remains here on earth after death. Body is never raised.

 

[schaick]

There is no such thing in the Quran. It may be in the bible because bible says that Adam was the first man created.

**Sorry I didn’t list the verses because being Muslim I thought you would be more versed in your book.

These are the verses about Adam:
15.26 We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

15.29 “When I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.”**

We do not know what Allah did to Mary that He did not do to Jesus. Why we need to pray on something??

**Actually we do, although we don’t know if it is acurrate or not:

66.12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout.

19.017 She placed a screen from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
**

You are mistaken. That blowing of spirit was not to create anything in the womb. The breathing of spirit is to elevate a person to higher degree. It is nothing material. It is only spiritual matter. Breathing of spirit is to raise the spiritual status, not to make any one pregnant.

I do not believe any of that. The word and spirit are not to cause conception. You are going on a totally wrong line.

**Well that makes no sense how then if not by GOD’s command, Word did Mary get pregnant with Jesus?

GOD’s Word created the world, created man, everything.**

And Father is the God of Jesus. Jesus prayed to his Father in the garden before his arrest. But when Jesus was on the cross, he forgot his Father. He cried out to his God. “Eli Eli Lama sabaqatani??” O my God, O MY God, why have you forsaken me??

When you talk to Christians you might notice that they say **Jesus is GOD **but they usually do not say GOD is Jesus. Jesus is not ALL of GOD.

Our GOD - GODHEAD is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - one being.

All three “persons” are one substance but have manifest, come to man in different ways.
You might say they have different duties.

You have control, authority over your words, think of Jesus GOD’s Word incarnate-the Father had control, authority over Jesus.

John 6
38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

 

[schaick]

I do not know why you have embarked on a mission of teaching about Islam.
Allah also planned i.e. to save His man Jesus from the ignoble death and Allah is the best of planners.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will cause you to die a natural death and raise thy soul to Myself ( in ranks) and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute

Aren’t you looking for the TRUTH? The Quran says noting about a natural death.

Literal:When God said: "You Jesus I am,** I am making you die **and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing .

Free_Minds:For God said: “O Jesus, I will terminate your life, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who rejected until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, all of you, so I will judge between you in what it was that you disputed.”

Khalifa:Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

Yusuf_Ali:Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Shakir:And when Allah said: O Isa, **I am going to terminate the period of your stay and cause you to ascend **unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

It is clear, shown bold in red color, “They killed him not”. That means Jesus was not (never) killed. If Jesus was killed then he was a false prophet by the ruling of Deut 18:20. That says “False prophet will be killed.”

No this simply means that the Jews did not kill Jesus

 

[planten]

Mohammad mis-understanding that Christians believe that GOD is One- a True Unity4.171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not three : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs

Very good. Keep it up and going. No comments from me.

10.094 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Very true. The pagans of makkah were told that if they were in doubt about revelation or holy Spirit then they should ask the Jews and the christians. They will confirm the revelation.

19.33 “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life”!

Yes that was the reply given by Jesus to the elders of the Jews when the elder had ridiculed Jesus when they said that he (Jesus ) had been a suckling baby who was no more taking mothers milk.

It is a long story and cannot be understood in few words.

Allah had given the good news of an illustrous grown up son to Mary and Allah had described the good works of Jesus to his mother even before his birth. (See chapter 19). When Jesus was born and he grew up and he started preaching his ministry, Quran says that Mary brought Jesus before the people with great hopes, having him carried ( on mule, as per bible.) V.27. Mary was hopeful of a good welcome for her son. But she was disappointed. When Jesus started preaching, the evil elders of the Jews were trapped and exposed. They were highly disturbed and distressed. And they did not accept the teachings of Jesus. V.27.

They (elders) approached Mary so as to find a way out of the problem they were facing due to the preaching of Jesus. They said to Mary “O Mary, the sister of Aaron. Your father was not a bad man.Nor was your mother any rebellous lady. See what thing (Jesus) you have brought up.” V.28.
She did not reply to the elders. She only pointed to her (grown up) son that the elders should settle it out with him. But the elders said “How could they discuss meaningful things with one who had been drinking mother milk in her lap but had just left off drinking mother’s milk now”. V.29. Meaning, the elders considered Jesus much below their standard.

Then Jesus replied to the elders " He said I am a servant of Allah (Abdullah). He has given me the book and made me a prophet." V. 30.
“And He has made me blessed whereever I may be and He has advised me keep up prayers and to pay the poor money as long as I live.” V. 31.
“And He has made me kind (gentle) to my mother and He has not made me insolent and hard hearted person.” V. 32.
“And there is peace on me the day I was born and the day I die and the day I am raised again to life.” V. 33