I believe predestination means . .

[itsjustdave1988]

**
Yes, my belief in predestination is in opositiion to tradition. I have a great distrust of tradition because it is often changed to suit the needs of those that are in power.
**
Faithful Christians have a great distrust for novel doctrines such a yours, especially when it is contrary to apostolic tradition.

Rom 16:17 "

I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them."

Eph 4:14 “we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.”

1 Tim 1:3 “charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine**”**
**
**To reject “tradition” (Gk “paradosis”) as non-authoritative is to de-value Sacred Scripture, since St. Jude (Jude 3) asserts that the deposit of faith is handed on or delivered (Grk “paradidomi”), which literally means that it was “traditioned” to the faithful.

Jude 3 “ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered (Grk “paradidomi”) unto the saints.”

According to Vine’s *Expository of New Testament Words *(Protestant source):

  	 			 				 ***paradosis*** "a handing down or on" (akin to **paradidomi**, "to hand over, deliver"), denotes "**a tradition**"

St. Paul tells us that we are to shun those **who do not hold fast to the tradition (Gk “paradosis”) that has been taught (Gk “paralambano”) by the apostles.

2 Thess 3:6 “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition (Gk “paradosis”) which he received (Gk “paralambano”) of us.”

Moreover, according to Scripture, these traditions are both oral and written…

2 Thess 2:16 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions (Gk “paradosis” )which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

According to Thayer’s Lexicon (Protestant source):

paralambano: to receive with the mind 1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the*** tradition*** proceeds 2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers (used of disciples)

So, it appears that Christians are to hold fast to tradition, your dislike of it notwithstanding.

 

[tabcom]

**MyPhilomena:

Your citation of Ezekiel 28:12 and Isaiah 14:12 does answer my question in the affirmative that Satan exist. However, I fail to understand, through the verses you provided, that Satan pre-existed before God. Or existed in some other plane that is outside the jurisdiction of God. Would you like to provide another biblical source that would help understand your point-of-view?**

 

[MyPhilomena]

**MyPhilomena:

Your citation of Ezekiel 28:12 and Isaiah 14:12 does answer my question in the affirmative that Satan exist. However, I fail to understand, through the verses you provided, that Satan pre-existed before God. Or existed in some other plane that is outside the jurisdiction of God. Would you like to provide another biblical source that would help understand your point-of-view?**

do not misquote me. i never stated that satan existed before God, so please do not misquote me. i have provided you with enough scriptural evidence that the devil was lucifer, that God did not create the devil, and that because of his actions and his pride he was cast out of heaven down to hell. go back and re read the scriptures again. and incidentally, hell is not where heaven is. hell is apart from God, and is not in heaven, and neither is the devil.

 

[MyPhilomena]

respectfully, i give up. i have provided proof, and feel like iam not getting anywhere.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

**MyPhilomena:

Your citation of Ezekiel 28:12 and Isaiah 14:12 does answer my question in the affirmative that Satan exist. However, I fail to understand, through the verses you provided, that Satan pre-existed before God. Or existed in some other plane that is outside the jurisdiction of God. Would you like to provide another biblical source that would help understand your point-of-view?**

Angels are among the creation of God. All that God created was created good. Satan means “adversary.” God did not create any adversaries, but only created good creatures. That some of his good creatures, including angels, became adversaries through sin was certainly tolerated by God, but was not the desire of God. God does not desire sin (ie. moral evil) even though he can and does at times tolerate sin.

 

[tabcom]

itsjustdave1988:
Faithful Christians have a great distrust for novel doctrines such a yours, especially when it is contrary to apostolic tradition.

**Before continuing with this thought, would you care to offer insight as to what apostolic tradition of predestination is? Perhaps what I’m stating is not in opposition to what the Church teaches.

Also, there are only two doctrines as far as God is concerned. The doctrine that teaches to crucify the flesh and the devil doctrine that wants humans to fulfill the flesh. I have not stated, nor will I state, any such doctrine that would lead a baby believer into thinking that it is alright to satisfy their desires.**

 

[tabcom]

i have provided you with enough scriptural evidence that God did not create the devil.

I Respectully submit that you failed to do this adequately.

 

[tabcom]

Angels are among the creation of God. All that God created was created good. Satan means “adversary.” .

**
Satan does mean adversary.
However, I disagree with your implied definition of angels. For instance, in Rev 12:9:

And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

That word angels does not mean what tradition thinks as some heavenly being with wings. In the original greek text, the word aggelos was a common word two thousand years ago that meant a messenger, envoy, one who is sent.
**

All that God created was created good

**This statement appears to contradict Isa 45:7: I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Could you please clarify what you mean?
**

 

[MyPhilomena]

I Respectully submit that you failed to do this adequately.

oh okay… well that was a mean reply. after all the time and effort it isn’t good enough? oh well.

 

[MyPhilomena]

Angels are among the creation of God. All that God created was created good. Satan means “adversary.” God did not create any adversaries, but only created good creatures. That some of his good creatures, including angels, became adversaries through sin was certainly tolerated by God, but was not the desire of God. God does not desire sin (ie. moral evil) even though he can and does at times tolerate sin.

 

[tabcom]

So, it appears that Christians are to hold fast to tradition, your dislike of it notwithstanding.

**I’m afraid I was being ambiguous when I stated I distrusted tradition. Yes, I believe Jude 3 and Paul’s writings in 2 Thess 3:6. Thank you for providing these important verses. The kind of tradition that I distrust is the one that is passed down out of ignorance and supernatural nonsense. This type of tradition manifests itself as moral relativism; it denies an absolute truth. It preaches ‘you got your jesus, I got my jesus, so don’t preach the bible to me becasue it makes me feel uncomfortable’ (spoken in a soft non-threatening voice).

Ok, enough of me getting off topic.**

 

[tabcom]

(Edited for relevence and charity)**
But his statement stands in opostion to what the bible teaches.

Isa 45:7: I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
**

 

[puzzleannie]

Yes, I am. That was back in July. Since then, my wife and I bought a house and have moved. We are settled in now. I don’t know why my previous username and history was deleted from the system.
.

the forum crashed in July due to hackers and was down a good part of the summer, but unfortunately most of what happened since about April was lost, including a lot of users who had to register again.

if you search on past threads you might not find them.

 

[tabcom]

You pluck a sentence from Amos to show that God creates evil,

Amos 3:6
If evil befalls a city, has not the LORD caused it?
How many times does God have to say something in order for it to be true?
Answer: One Time

 

[Frank_Fenn]

It is a nice thing for my wife to say Amen, and Bless you. it is not a derogatory thing for her to state, as a matter of fact, it is quite nice when people say such things. Jesus commanded us to love one another as he has loved us did he not? then why not state Amen, and Bless you?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

**Before continuing with this thought, would you care to offer insight as to what apostolic tradition of predestination is?
**

**
**Sure, however it was your notion that God **“under orders from God” **satan proceeded to tempt Adam and Eve which was contrary to apostolic tradition, as well as your erroneous view that tradition is not authoritative.

As for the traditional understanding of predestination, it is taught by the Catholic Church by the Council of Valence III, AD 855:

Council of Valence III, on predestination…

… faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved,** the mercy of God precedes the merited good.** In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do… in regard to evil men, however, we believe that God foreknew their malice, because it is from them,** but that He did not predestine it**, because it is not from Him. (We believe) that God, who sees all things, foreknew and predestined that their evil deserved the punishment which followed, because He is just, in whom as Saint Augustine says, there is concerning all things everywhere so fixed a decree as a certain predestination. " (Denzinger 322)

Moroever, according to early Church tradition, **all the elect are predestined to eternal glory…

St. Augustine:
**

“… whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Of these no one perishes, because all are elected." (On Rebuke and Grace, Ch 14)

   **Yet, some of those        TRULY regenerated and justified in Christ are among the elect, but some are        *not*...

**

We, then, call men elected, and Christ’s disciples, and God’s children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called if they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called. But if they have not perseverance,–that is, if they continue not in that which they have begun to be,–they are not truly called what they are called and are not; for they are not this in the sight of Him to whom it is known what they are going to be,–that is to say, from good men, bad men. (ibid, Ch 22)

   ***The reprobate do not lack        grace from God.* Some may be said to have received the gift of grace, but        lack the gift of *perseverence*...**

… But those who do not belong to this number of the predestinated … [some] receive the grace of God, but they are only for a season, and do not persevere; they forsake and are forsaken. For by their free will, as they have not received the gift of perseverance, they are sent away by the righteous and hidden judgment of God (ibid, Ch. 42)

If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, “I have not received,” because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received. (ibid, ch 9)

continued…

 

[MyPhilomena]

**
**Sure, however it was your notion that God **“under orders from God” **satan proceeded to tempt Adam and Eve which was contrary to apostolic tradition, as well as your erroneous view that tradition is not authoritative.

As for the traditional understanding of predestination, it is taught by the Catholic Church by the Council of Valence III, AD 855:

Council of Valence III, on predestination…

Moroever, according to early Church tradition, **all the elect are predestined to eternal glory…

St. Augustine:
** Yet, some of those TRULY regenerated and justified in Christ are among the elect, but some are not…
The reprobate do not lack grace from God. Some may be said to have received the gift of grace, but lack the gift of perseverence…
continued…

good work!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

continued…

God gives us his light so as to illuminate every man coming into this world…

That light, however, does not nourish the eyes of irrational birds, but the pure hearts of those men who believe in God and turn from the love of visible and temporal things to the fulfilling of His precepts. All men can do this if they will, because that light illuminates every man coming into this world. (St. Augustined, Genesis Defended Against the Manicheans, AD 389).

Apart from a direct revelation of God, one cannot be absolutely certain whether one has received the gift of final perseverance. But those who TRULY have been given the virtue of faith by God may indeed lack this gift of perseverance.

I HAVE now to consider the subject of perseverance … I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. … For if any one … have righteousness … if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was … righteous, or he was … believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. … And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years’ standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the stedfastness of his faith. [St. Augustine, *Treatise on the Gift of Perseverence]

Moreover, God does not ignore the prayer of sinners:

For God does listen to sinner too. If God did not listen to sinners it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and stike his breast saying: ‘Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner.’ And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment. (St. Augustine, Homilies on John, 44, 13]

In speaking of the gift of perseverance, St. Augustine asserted that it too can be given by God in response to prayer:

This gift of [perseverance from] God, therefore, can be obtained by supplication (Gift of Perseverance, 6, 10)

There are some, morevover, who either pray not at all or pray coldly, because they know from the Lord’s having said it that God knows what is necessary for us even before we ask it of Him. Must the truth of this statement be given up or is it to be supposed that it should be deleted from the gospel on account of such peoplel? On the contrary, while it is a fact that God prepares some things to be given even to those who do not pray, such as the beginning of faith, and other things not to be given except to those who pray for them, such as perseverance to the end, certainly one who thinks that he has this of himself does not pray to have it. We must beware, then, lest, while we fear that exhortation may grow cool, prayer be extinguished and presumption advanced. (ibid., 16, 39)

continued…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

continued…

St. Augustine seems to insist that all the just (those given the saving grace of regeneration) are able to persevere if they will it:

The excuse would seem more just of those who say: “We did not receive hearing,” than those who say “We did not recieve perseverance,” because reply can be made: “Man, in what you heard and kept, in that much you could have persevered if you had will” (Admonition and Grace, 7, 11)

God, therefore, gave man a good will, because He made him in that will when He made him upright (i.e., justified or regenerated). He gave man assistance (i.e. saving grace) without which man could not continue in the will even if he would; but that he would, God left to his free choice. *** Man was able, therefore, to continue if he would, because the assistance was not lacking whereby he was able, and without which he would not be able, to persevere in holding to the good that he might will.*** But because he willed not to continue, certainly the blame is his whose merit it would have been if he had willed to continue. (ibid., 11, 32)

That is the sense in which apostolic tradition taught predestination, justification, and perseverence.

 

[tabcom]

**itsjustdave1988 . . .

Thank you for your reply to me question.
I am familar with much of what you state. I also agree, for as much of it that I have studied in the past, with its summation.

Please allow me to review what you have provided and I will reply back at a later date.

**