I believe predestination means . .

[tabcom]

did god ask job if that is what he wanted? why did he let the devil torture job only to prove that he will remain faithful to him? what’s the point?

**I believe the point of the story of Job is that God is in control of everything. The good and the evil.

It would be a redundent statement if 1 Th 5:18 stated ‘give thanks for the good; for this is God’s will . . .’.

No, 1 Th 5:18 states:" in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus."

We are taught to give thanks for the good AND the evil that comes into our lives. **

 

[stillwater]

**I believe the point of the story of Job is that God is in control of everything. The good and the evil. **

i guess it’s a good example why we can’t have free will…since god is in control of everything. that is also reason why praying is pointless since even if you do good, he can change his mind and take away everything from you…and yet we are taught to be still thankful about it?

 

[tabcom]

I’d like to hear you provide Scripture that explains to us clearly that God DID create something that was not “good…very good” as Genesis states, since it is clear testimony from Genesis that EVERYTHING God created was very good.

**King James Version: Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Web Version: Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.”

New Living Translation: Isaiah 45:7 - “I am the one who creates the light and the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times.”

The Apostle’s Bible: Isaiah 45:7 - “I am He that prepared light, and formed darkness; who makes peace, and creates calamity; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.”

The Amplified Bible: Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light and create darkness, I make peace (national well-being) and I create (physical) evil (calamity); I am the Lord, who does all things.”
**

 

[FCEGM]

**King James Version: Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Web Version: Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.”

New Living Translation: Isaiah 45:7 - “I am the one who creates the light and the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times.”

The Apostle’s Bible: Isaiah 45:7 - “I am He that prepared light, and formed darkness; who makes peace, and creates calamity; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.”

The Amplified Bible: Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light and create darkness, I make peace (national well-being) and I create (physical) evil (calamity); I am the Lord, who does all things.”
**

In post #38, Dave sheds light on the problem you have in understanding the difference between God’s direct action in creation (it being all good) and His INdirect action (per accidens) in creating evil. These articles (one from Aquinas’ Summa Theologica) more fully address the correct understanding regarding God and evil:

ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP049.html#FPQ49OUTP1

aquinasonline.com/Questions/god-evil.html

God is not “guilty” when He permits such evil acts. OTOH, man cannot excuse himself for the evil that he does by attempting to show the good that GOD has drawn from it.

 

[stillwater]

In post #38, Dave sheds light on the problem you have in understanding the difference between God’s direct action in creation (it being all good) and His INdirect action (per accidens) in creating evil. These articles (one from Aquinas’ Summa Theologica) more fully address the correct understanding regarding God and evil:

ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP049.html#FPQ49OUTP1

aquinasonline.com/Questions/god-evil.html

God is not “guilty” when He permits such evil acts. OTOH, man cannot excuse himself for the evil that he does by attempting to show the good that GOD has drawn from it.

even if it’s direct or indirect action by god, it’s still the same he committed it.

of course god is not guilty, because he is god, and we are just his toys.

 

[FCEGM]

even if it’s direct or indirect action by god, it’s still the same he committed it.

It’s apparent you can’t (or won’t) make distinctions since to do so would upset your now-agnostic applecart.

of course god is not guilty, because he is god, and we are just his toys.

I’m sorry for you.

 

[stillwater]

It’s apparent you can’t (or won’t) make distinctions since to do so would upset your now-agnostic applecart.

I’m sorry for you.

okay let’s make distinctions through analogy

for example someone wanted to assassinate the president, he is called the mastermind. now the assssinator is only an accessory of the crime. the mastermind did not directly kill the president, the assassinator did kill the president directly. but the assassinator could have not done it without the mastermind’s command.

if the crime was discovered both the assassinator and the mastermind are convicted.

 

[FCEGM]

okay let’s make distinctions through analogy

for example someone wanted to assassinate the president, he is called the mastermind. now the assssinator is only an accessory of the crime. the mastermind did not directly kill the president, the assassinator did kill the president directly. but the assassinator could have not done it without the mastermind’s command.

if the crime was discovered both the assassinator and the mastermind are convicted.

Sorry, still no distinction, since both are guilty of desiring the evil outcome. :tsktsk:

 

[itsjustdave1988]

King James Version: Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Web Version: Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things."

New Living Translation: Isaiah 45:7 - "I am the one who creates the light and the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times."

The Apostle’s Bible: Isaiah 45:7 - "I am He that prepared light, and formed darkness; who makes peace, and creates calamity; I am the Lord God, that does all these things."

**The Amplified Bible: Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light and create darkness, I make peace (national well-being) and I create (physical) evil (calamity); I am the Lord, who does all things.” **

Amen! Nonetheless, as already stated, this is the evil of penalty due to prior sin. Before the fall of angels and the fall of man, everything created by God was “very good,” as there is no need of penalty without sin.

Moreover, God is never the author of evil of fault, that is, moral sin, neither as a means nor as an end.

 

[stillwater]

Sorry, still no distinction, since both are guilty of desiring the evil outcome. :tsktsk:

so you are saying that god did not desire evil outcome even if he indirectly caused the creation of evil?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Is there anything in my "I believe predestination means . . . " manifesto that you find that may contradict Church teaching?..

I don’t think your original post actually touches upon predestination, at least not clearly. What has God “foreordained” in your view? You said: “He also looked down the corridors of time and foreknew everyone that would be a descendent of Adam.” Foreknowledge, while related, is not precisely predestination.

Moreover, from apostolic tradition, we understand that we are all descendents of Adam, so “foreknowing” who would be descendents of Adam does not make much sense to me. The Blessed Virgin Mary was a descendent of Adam, as soo too was Jesus Christ. The only rational beings who are not descendents of Adam are angels and demons, right?

When you say “spiritual bothers and sisters” of Adam, what do you mean? Do you meant the brothers and sisters of the New Adam, Jesus Christ? When you say “God-selected” do you discount that every man is given grace from God sufficient to become justified and attain everlasting life, if only they used the good gift of free will as God intended them?

From a Catholic perspective, all mankind have Christ as their King, and each and every person in various ways belong to Christ’s Church. St. Thomas Aquinas speaks of this “belonging” as being either potential or actual. “Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3).

What was foreordained by God? In the Catholic view, God foreordained that those who die finally impenitent of mortal sin, or in original sin only, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

All mankind are children of Adam and as a consequence, apart from a supernatural intervention by God, we lack that original holiness which Adam and Eve had been given. We are given good, natural gifts from God, to include free will to serve the Lord. If we misuse our good natural gifts and freely abandon our obligation to serve the Lord, we are severed from the sanctifying grace of Christ, even though God continues to shine His light as an actual grace for the repentence and conversion of all mankind–each and every person.

As for foreknowledge, God is omniscient, and in the Catholic sense he is a supernatural being which exists outside of time, and so His knowledge is not uncertain, because it transcends time and as such, he knows what will happen in OUR future, because OUR past, present, and future is, from HIS perspective, an eternal present. No matter how much uncertainty is built in to nature by God from OUR perspective, there is no uncertainty from God’s perspective.

Thus, from an Catholic, and especially and Augustinian viewpoint, the number of the “elect”–in the strict sense of the word, that is, in the eyes of God–are fixed from all eternity. While Augustine uses the term “elect” in two senses: 1) “elect” in our eyes–all those truly regenerated in Christ by baptism, and 2) “elect” in God’s eyes–those who finally persevere in the faith to the end of their life on earth, only the second sense or the elect in the strict sense.

Much of the problems in theology derive from a diverent use of terms. Calvinists, for example, dispart from Catholic teaching, especially Augustine, when they reject the distinction between those predestined to grace and those predestined to eternal glory. In so doing, they confuse election to grace with election to eternal glory, which confuses the gift of faith and the gift of perseverance, making them one gift.

Catholics believe that there are those who are elected (predestined) to receive supernatural grace and true faith as s distinct gift from God, but may not finally persevere in that true faith and so may not have received the gift of final perseverence.

We are certainly called to freely serve the Lord, “following the rules,” which is what St. Paul described to the Romans as the “obedience of faith,” prayerfully studying His Word and encountering our Lord and getting to know Him personally so as to understanding His will for us personally. We believe that God gives sufficient opportunity to each and every soul such that they can attain eternal life.

If this is how you understand predestination, then you are certainly congruent with apostolic tradition. However, in our prior discussions, you seem to have discounted free will. No true understanding of predestination can reject the reality of free will given to each and every person by God.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

**I believe the point of the story of Job is that God is in control of everything. The good and the evil. **

I disagree that this was the point of Job. Obviously God is in control of everything, as this is taught throughout various texts of the OT and NT. However, the lesson of Job is revealed in the faulty theological understanding that Job and his friends had regarding the reason for suffering. Both Job and all his friends erroneously presumed that only the wicked suffer. Job desires an advocate to plead his case to God because he cannot understand why he is made to suffer, because Job is certain of his innocence. Likewise, Job’s friends dismiss Job’s innocence outright, thinking that he must not be honest about some secret wickedness of his past or else he would not be suffering. The error that both Job and his friends make is that they believe only the wicked suffer. This is a theological error and a lesson which foreshadows the NT redemption. The wicked do indeed suffer as a penalty of their guilt, however, contrary to the erroneous theology of Job and his friends, the righteous also suffer , because of the wickedness of others, and this suffering endured faithfully is a merit which is rewarded abundantly, which reveals the glory of God. That’s the lesson of Job.

God is indeed the prima causa of the suffering of Job, even if God uses what are called instrumental causes to bring about Job’s suffering. However, the point is about **merit, **to correct the prevalent erroneous theological view of ancient Judaism at that time, that only the wicked suffer. This lesson serves to prepare for a greater fulfullment of God’s plan which has its summit in Christ’s suffering, the spotless Lamb of God, whose suffering was completely meritorious not just for one, but for all mankind.

 

[FCEGM]

so you are saying that god did not desire evil outcome even if he indirectly caused the creation of evil?

Of course He doesn’t desire (never desires!) an evil outcome since all things were/are created to find their fulfillment (their highest good) in Him. Evil is permitted - and came about because of a free choosing against God, against the Good - because God can bring the good out of evil; witness the Crucifixion of God Incarnate and the Resurrection for our salvation.

 

[tabcom]

Amen! Nonetheless, as already stated, this is the evil of penalty due to prior sin. Before the fall of angels and the fall of man, everything created by God was “very good,” as there is no need of penalty without sin.
Moreover, God is never the author of evil of fault, that is, moral sin, neither as a means nor as an end.

**
I understand that God cannot do evil because He is outside of time\space. However, I don’t understand what you mean by ‘penatly due to prior sin’.Could you please explain this in your own words?**

 

[stillwater]

I disagree that this was the point of Job. Obviously God is in control of everything, as this is taught throughout various texts of the OT and NT. However, the lesson of Job is revealed in the faulty theological understanding that Job and his friends had regarding the reason for suffering. Both Job and all his friends erroneously presumed that only the wicked suffer. Job desires an advocate to plead his case to God because he cannot understand why he is made to suffer, because Job is certain of his innocence. Likewise, Job’s friends dismiss Job’s innocence outright, thinking that he must not be honest about some secret wickedness of his past or else he would not be suffering. The error that both Job and his friends make is that they believe only the wicked suffer. This is a theological error and a lesson which foreshadows the NT redemption. The wicked do indeed suffer as a penalty of their guilt, however, contrary to the erroneous theology of Job and his friends, the righteous also suffer , because of the wickedness of others, and this suffering endured faithfully is a merit which is rewarded abundantly, which reveals the glory of God. That’s the lesson of Job.

God is indeed the prima causa of the suffering of Job, even if God uses what are called instrumental causes to bring about Job’s suffering. However, the point is about merit, to correct the prevalent erroneous theological view of ancient Judaism at that time, that only the wicked suffer. This lesson serves to prepare for a greater fulfullment of God’s plan which has its summit in Christ’s suffering, the spotless Lamb of God, whose suffering was completely meritorious not just for one, but for all mankind.

Of course He doesn’t desire (never desires!) an evil outcome since all things were/are created to find their fulfillment (their highest good) in Him. Evil is permitted - and came about because of a free choosing against God, against the Good - because God can bring the good out of evil; witness the Crucifixion of God Incarnate and the Resurrection for our salvation.

god has got no reason at all for destroyin job. he just picked a random man to play a bet with satan. now tell me, if you have a son and he has done nothing to you, with you let other people torture him to prove his love to you?

“And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I understand that God cannot do evil because He is outside of time\space. However, I don’t understand what you mean by ‘penatly due to prior sin’.Could you please explain this in your own words?

Your assertion that evil is related to “time/space” doesnt make sense by this logic God cant do good either because it involves “time/space”. The point is “time/space” isnt a factor in doing good or evil.

god has got no reason at all for destroyin job. he just picked a random man to play a bet with satan. now tell me, if you have a son and he has done nothing to you, with you let other people torture him to prove his love to you?

The account of Job is a story, God doesnt really sit around messing with people like that. The moral is for man not to assume God’s motives (eg God MUST be angry with man) when bad occurs in their lives. Jesus talks about how the Christian life will involve suffering (in the struggle against sin and persecusion and the devils attacks) and to recognize that after this suffering comes reward for those who endure and trust Him. Thats an important theme of the Gospel.

 

[stillwater]

The account of Job is a story, God doesnt really sit around messing with people like that. The moral is for man not to assume God’s motives (eg God MUST be angry with man) when bad occurs in their lives. Jesus talks about how the Christian life will involve suffering (in the struggle against sin and persecusion and the devils attacks) and to recognize that after this suffering comes reward for those who endure and trust Him. Thats an important theme of the Gospel.

well in the story, god didn’t really have a motive.
so prayers are useless.
because even if you are innocent or not, if god feels like it, he will reward you or give you suffering.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

god has got no reason at all for destroyin job.

This statement of yours seems misplaced, as God doesn’t destroy Job.

he just picked a random man to play a bet with satan.

I disagree that you’ve properly understood the Book of Job. God didn’t simply pick Job at random. Job was picked because of his righteousness and because of God’s foreknowledge that Job would not reject Him despite his suffering. “He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.” (Job 1:3). “There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil” (Job 1:8)

now tell me, if you have a son and he has done nothing to you, with you let other people torture him to prove his love to you?

I do have a son and my son will suffer, some of that suffering I could stop, but I don’t. Why? Even if I could stop all of his suffering, I wouldn’t because that would not be in accord with his greater good, him living to his fullest potential. Suffering brings character and from a supernatural viewpoint, holiness. Because I am not a Divine father, I am certainly tempted to take away any cross that he must carry, because I don’t always know the reason for the suffering or see the greater good at the other end of that suffering. Yet, even though I am an imperfect father, I do understand that I need to reject my temptation to take away every suffering of his, because these are the crosses he must carry for his greater good. It is through these crosses that he is given the opportunity to become a child of God in a more perfect way. To take that away from him through misplaced intervention would be a greater evil.

For example, I know the girlfriend my teenager has will make him suffer. She already has, and there’s undoubtedly more suffering to come. She has many psychological problems and he will suffer because of it (and I will suffer too). Nonetheless, I am not going to demand he stop seeing her or prevent him from seeing her, even though I know he will suffer because of that relationship. Why? He will grow from the suffering he is about to endure. That he suffers is not the proof of his love for me, but is instead, like Job, a test of his faithfulness to God. If he should suffer with faithful endurance, it will be meritorious, thereby rewarding in the long term. It is foolish and erroneous to think that only the wicked suffer, and it would be incorrect of me to attempt to keep my son from the potential meritorious cross that he must carry.

Anyone that has fallen in love and had his heart broken understands, albeit often years later, that love is worth the risk of pain, the risk of suffering heartache. Indeed real human love cannot truly exist without such risk of rejection. Even God takes this risk in order to authentically love us. That he knows the outcome of our test (while we do not) does not negate the fact that God has given us the gift of free choice to serve him in the midst of our suffering, or to reject him.

In the final analysis, the reason evil exists is because of one self-evident truth: Love is worth the risk of suffering, indeed it is worth the certainty of suffering.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

By the way, it is a common misunderstanding that God made a bet with Satan in the Book of Job. He didn’t. God stated a fact, Job is righteous. There was no bet. Satan implied that Job was only just because of his properity. Far from a bet with Satan, God wagered nothing. He simply used Job as an instrument to teach an immutable truth, knowing full well what the outcome would be. Satan said, “stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” In response “The Lord said to Satan, 'Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands…but you must spare his life.”

Nothing was promised to Satan based upon the response of Job. Although Satan did not know what Job’s response would be, God did. The entire episode is not about a bet with Satan, but about a theological truth: even the righteous suffer, but when they do so with faithful endurance, they do so meritoriously and they receive a greater reward from God.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

**
I understand that God cannot do evil because He is outside of time\space.
**

I disagree with your conclusion. God cannot sin (moral evil) because he is perfect, not because He is ontologicaly independent of time and space.

Moral evil (sin) is evil which consists in the defect of thought, word, or deed. It is always caused by the defect of the agent. In God there is no defect, but perfection. Hence, moral evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, cannot have God as its cause. God helps his creation overcome their defect of action (sin), but does not force them to act contrary to their free will. In otherwords, with regard to moral evil, God in His providence, though infinitely good and powerful, permits moral evil to exist in the world, partly that greater good may not be impeded, and partly that greater evil may not ensue.

However, I don’t understand what you mean by ‘penatly due to prior sin’.Could you please explain this in your own words?

God punishes the wicked. If there was never a sin (as was the case before the fall of angels and man), God would never have cause to create such punishment. God’s just punishment is what I mean by the “evil of penaly.” It does not exist except for prior sin. I understand that it is odd to call such *just punishment *“evil” but that is how Sacred Scripture often describes it. For example, “if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to i**t” (Jer 18:8). This is the evil created by God spoken of in Is 45:7 and like passages in Amos and elsewhere. One ought not to confuse this kind of evil for moral evil, that is sin. God does not sin nor directly cause the sin of others, but he does tolerate sin to exist in the world, partly that greater good may not be impeded, and partly that greater evil may not ensue.