I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

[dronald]

One would vererate a cross by kissing, touching, bowing or anyother way one might show reference for what it represents. Christ his sacrifice and our salvation etc…

One would worship a cross when they offer sacrifice to it, considered it a god having divine powers of its own such as healing.

[Acts14:9 The same heard **Paul

speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. 11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.]

[Acts19:11 And **God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.]

[2Kgs2:14 And **he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.]

[2Kgs13:20 And **Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year. 21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.]

Some Christians are so graced by God that objects touched or used by them carry the grace of God to cure even after death.

Yes, this is one example.

What about the two that I have posted?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.

26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man. "

Peter, filled with the power of the Holy Spirit by virtue of his Apostolic call, was given the charism of discernment and possibly to read the intentions of others. He (spiritually) saw that Cornelius, although sincere, was not venerating him as an Apostle in his intent, but seeing him as Jesus, that is Divine.

Rev 22:8 I , John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God. "

The angel is all knowing. One difference between men and angels is that angels make decisions with full knowledge of its extant and repercussion. The angel knew that John misread in giving honor to the angel in the presence of God Himself. One does not give respect to one of lesser stature in the presence of one with higher stature. My priest would not be given the accord in the presence of my bishop. My bishop would not be given the accord in the presence of my Catholicos (Major archbishop), etc.

The key word here is “worship”. The original meaning of the word is from the Old English weorthscipe ‘worthiness, acknowledgment of worth’. Worthiness and acknowledgement to the proper degree, these two examples show excess degree. One in the intent of the person giving the worship, recognized as excess by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on the one whom the worship was being accorded; the other, the intent was proper but the circumstance was inappropriate, due to being in the presence of one greater than the angels.

 

[z_0101]

Ok, we know that Martin Luther was part of the reformation movement and, of course, the Lutheran church is based upon his ideas/teachings.

So, let me pull an excerpt from a document published by The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod - Unchanging Truth: Lutheran Worship (please follow the link to read the PDF file in context)

the bold/highlights are by my hand, not the original author(s) ]]
Lutheranism has continued to make use ofbeautiful eccle-
siastical art such as statues of Jesus, the apostles, and other
important figures in the Bible or church history.You will find in
many Lutheran churches altars, candles, paintings, statues,
crucifixes, symbols, stained-glass windows, processional
crosses, banners, and other forms of art and decoration.All of
these lend beauty, dignity and reverence to the service. They
help us to focus our attention on Christ and His gifts. Some
Lutheran churches are elaborately decorated and richly orna-
mented. Others are more plainly adorned.We make no fixed
rules about such things.We rejoice in our Christian freedom to
use all manner of reverent artwork and decoration to glorify
and praise God

Let me stress that one sentence:
They help us to focus our attention on Christ and His gifts.

My fellow Catholics, correct me if I am wrong; however, is not the above sentence the very view that we hold when we are standing in front of a statue of the stations, The Holy Mother, or a saint’s relics? If so, then why is it so hard for protestants to understand how we Catholics view holy images, sacramentals, and relics - there it is in black and white that the teachings of their churches tend to understand this view?

Are not these items, (statues, images, relics), for a Catholic - intended to help us to focus our attention (and prayers) on Christ and His gifts in the exact same way as stated in the above sentence?

From what I understand, Luther understood what was going on…

 

[pablope]

1. never have I ever knelt down in front of my grandfathers photo and prayed.

1. never have I ever kissed a photo… that’s just weird.

 

[pablope]

Thank you, Peter. This is the area (saints and Mary) that bothers me the most or I cannot get it settled in my heart and head. Lots of prayer to Jesus and, as you say, checking for papers/documents written on the various Catholic sites.

I would suggest that you start at the roots…at the Jews…and then look at early Christianity…on through the centuries…and then see what happens at the Reformation…when all these are thrown out.

amazon.com/The-Crucified-Rabbi-Catholic-Christianity/dp/057803834X

taylormarshall.com/2009/08/my-new-book-crucified-rabbi-judaism-and.html

I look at Jewish tevilah washings and the mikvah as they relate to baptism, infant baptism, and baptismal regeneration. The Passover and the Holy Mass. Hebrew notions of priesthood and the New Testament notion of priesthood. There’s even a chapter on “Jewish Vestments, Catholic Vestments” with lots of cool quotes form Philo and Josephus on the symoblism of vestments.

And a blogger’s personal review of the book:

ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/

, Dr. Marshall recounts an experience he had talking with a Rabbi in a hospital waiting room (Dr. Marshall was visiting someone as a priest), who told him that Jews believe that “if someone is suffering and you invoke the name of his or her mother in prayer, God will be more merciful in granting your prayer for that person“. Dr. Marshall then goes on to make a connection with the Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary, and goes on from there:
If Jews believed that invoking the mother of someone caused God to be more gracious in answering an intercession, then wouldn’t the name of Mary be worth invoking? Even more, Mary wasn’t just an ordinary mother. She was the only person ever created who could speak to God about our Son. That’s when it hit me. Catholic devotion to Mary is not merely based on sound Christological arguments. Veneration for the Blessed Mother is not just only in the writings of the early Church. Reaching back even further, the Church reveres and invokes the Blessed Mother because it inherited the Jewish custom of showing profound reverence for the spiritual role of the mother in a family. The rabbi’s answer was a surprising confirmation that Catholic customs are rooted in a Jewish understanding of reality.

 

[Mousey]

But just because you act in ways that seem like worship and simultaneously say “I’m not worshiping” doesn’t mean it’s not worship. So where do you draw the line of “This is veneration, and that is worship”.

A rich Christian can on one hand say they don’t worship money but on the other hand put so much importance on it that it actually is worship.

It has been pointed out that it is in the definition. The definition of worship has changed meanings and there is more than one meaning. The current meaning which applies here according to Webster is

: the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god

In order to be worship according to definition, the person has to believe what is worshiped is a god. Kneeling down does not indicate the persons belief that what they are kneeling to is a god. Men kneel to ask a woman to marry. When people kneel before a statue, unless you know they believe that statue is a god than no worship takes place.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

It has been pointed out that it is in the definition. The definition of worship has changed meanings and there is more than one meaning. The current meaning which applies here according to Webster is

The question for us is not how Merriam-Webster defines worship. The question for us is what Scripture defines as worship. The breakdown of worship into latreia/dulia, etc. common in Catholic apologetics is, at best, sophistry that has no warrant from the prophetic and apostolic record.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The question for us is not how Merriam-Webster defines worship. The question for us is what Scripture defines as worship. The breakdown of worship into latreia/dulia, etc. common in Catholic apologetics is, at best, sophistry that has no warrant from the prophetic and apostolic record.

Quite the opposite actually, since Scripture was not written in English and indeed has words that differentiate latria, dulia, etc. which is commonly all lumped together as ‘worship’ in English. The sophistry is not acknowledging this but pretending to quote Scripture, at the same time rejecting it in essence, and presuming (a sin) to read the intent of the other.

The worst form of this ‘sophistry’ is rejecting the meaning of the actual English word to limit it and then accusing those who recognize the wider appropriate meaning of the word of ill intent. One could say it is a sin against one’s neighbor and false witness to accuse another wrongfully of idolatry.

 

[SteveVH]

The question for us is not how Merriam-Webster defines worship. The question for us is what Scripture defines as worship.

I would agree. And how does Scripture define worship?

The breakdown of worship into latreia/dulia, etc. common in Catholic apologetics is, at best, sophistry that has no warrant from the prophetic and apostolic record.

Well, we can certainly see honor given to Mary from the early Church fathers. But doesn’t it really come down to what is in the heart of the one giving honor? When I salute the flag, or stand and sing the national anthem with my hand across my heart, trust me when I say that I am not worshipping the flag, even though it may appear that way to one who is ignorant of my intentions. Just as I can distinguish between the honor I am showing toward my country with the worship I give to God alone, I can also distinguish between the honor I show to Mary as opposed to the worship I give to God alone. It is not up to you to define what is in my heart.

 

[spedteacherita]

I would suggest that you start at the roots…at the Jews…and then look at early Christianity…on through the centuries…and then see what happens at the Reformation…when all these are thrown out.

amazon.com/The-Crucified-Rabbi-Catholic-Christianity/dp/057803834X

taylormarshall.com/2009/08/my-new-book-crucified-rabbi-judaism-and.html

I look at Jewish tevilah washings and the mikvah as they relate to baptism, infant baptism, and baptismal regeneration. The Passover and the Holy Mass. Hebrew notions of priesthood and the New Testament notion of priesthood. There’s even a chapter on “Jewish Vestments, Catholic Vestments” with lots of cool quotes form Philo and Josephus on the symoblism of vestments.

And a blogger’s personal review of the book:

ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/

, Dr. Marshall recounts an experience he had talking with a Rabbi in a hospital waiting room (Dr. Marshall was visiting someone as a priest), who told him that Jews believe that “if someone is suffering and you invoke the name of his or her mother in prayer, God will be more merciful in granting your prayer for that person“. Dr. Marshall then goes on to make a connection with the Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary, and goes on from there:
If Jews believed that invoking the mother of someone caused God to be more gracious in answering an intercession, then wouldn’t the name of Mary be worth invoking? Even more, Mary wasn’t just an ordinary mother. She was the only person ever created who could speak to God about our Son. That’s when it hit me. Catholic devotion to Mary is not merely based on sound Christological arguments. Veneration for the Blessed Mother is not just only in the writings of the early Church. Reaching back even further, the Church reveres and invokes the Blessed Mother because it inherited the Jewish custom of showing profound reverence for the spiritual role of the mother in a family. The rabbi’s answer was a surprising confirmation that Catholic customs are rooted in a Jewish understanding of reality.

Thank you, Pablope. I can understanding honoring Mary and the saints who have died as well. But, first, in Mary’s case, I cannot, at this point believe that she was immaculately conceived or assumed up in heaven. Don’t get angry with this. That’s where I am right now and I don’t think my disbelief in those areas are going to affect my relationship with Jesus or weather I will be entering Paradise either.

My problem lies in honoring a tangible object that belonged to a person who has died. In the case of the bones of Polycarp it was written that they saved them so that they could remember him on the birthday of his martyrdom. That doesn’t bother me as much as a crowd gathering to watch a vial of blood from a Sainted pope (a great pope, btw).

I will check out the links and add the info to my notebook so that I can study more. I appreciate everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut throughout the thread. Civil debates make better understanding on both sides.

God bless!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Ok, we know that Martin Luther was part of the reformation movement and, of course, the Lutheran church is based upon his ideas/teachings.

So, let me pull an excerpt from a document published by The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod - Unchanging Truth: Lutheran Worship (please follow the link to read the PDF file in context)

the bold/highlights are by my hand, not the original author(s) ]]
Lutheranism has continued to make use ofbeautiful eccle-
siastical art such as statues of Jesus, the apostles, and other
important figures in the Bible or church history.You will find in
many Lutheran churches altars, candles, paintings, statues,
crucifixes, symbols, stained-glass windows, processional
crosses, banners, and other forms of art and decoration.All of
these lend beauty, dignity and reverence to the service. They
help us to focus our attention on Christ and His gifts. Some
Lutheran churches are elaborately decorated and richly orna-
mented. Others are more plainly adorned.We make no fixed
rules about such things.We rejoice in our Christian freedom to
use all manner of reverent artwork and decoration to glorify
and praise God

Let me stress that one sentence:
They help us to focus our attention on Christ and His gifts.

My fellow Catholics, correct me if I am wrong; however, is not the above sentence the very view that we hold when we are standing in front of a statue of the stations, The Holy Mother, or a saint’s relics? If so, then why is it so hard for protestants to understand how we Catholics view holy images, sacramentals, and relics - there it is in black and white that the teachings of their churches tend to understand this view?

Are not these items, (statues, images, relics), for a Catholic - intended to help us to focus our attention (and prayers) on Christ and His gifts in the exact same way as stated in the above sentence?

From what I understand, Luther understood what was going on…

Ahhhh, we Lutherans love our art!!! No doubt about it!! Here is a link to some pictures of our Chapel at my Alma Mater Concordia University, Ann Arbor.

lcmsphoto.photoshelter.com/image/I00007KEX3o0RAZQ

This chapel is built with 3 triangular walls and each wall is filled with beautiful stained glass. I remember sitting in the pews and just moved with such wonder and beauty and allowed them to help my focus to go to Jesus and ready myself for worship.

The difference is we don’t stand in front of a statue or a relic and rely on those to intercede on our behalf to our Lord Jesus. They are merely a way to set up a mood for worship. Do I need that? No. I can worship, pray and praise my Lord in my bedroom. Maybe some of our Lutheran friends can help explain it better than I right now. I cannot find the words I need to explain it.

Blessings!!

Rita

 

[SyroMalankara]

My problem lies in honoring a tangible object that belonged to a person who has died. In the case of the bones of Polycarp it was written that they saved them so that they could remember him on the birthday of his martyrdom. That doesn’t bother me as much as a crowd gathering to watch a vial of blood from a Sainted pope (a great pope, btw).

Rita

Rita, I don’t think most folks were there just to look at JP2’s blood. It’s more likely they were asking his intercession, his blood being the tangible.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Rita, I don’t think most folks were there just to look at JP2’s blood. It’s more likely they were asking his intercession, his blood being the tangible.

Why do you need JP2 or Patrick, Paul, Mary…etc. Do you not feel as if you can pray directly to God through Jesus Christ?

Jesus never told the Apostle to ask Moses or Abraham for their intercession. He stated that we should pray to the father through Him.

 

[pablope]

Why do you need JP2 or Patrick, Paul, Mary…etc. Do you not feel as if you can pray directly to God through Jesus Christ?

Out of humility…forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11012687#post11012687

]In hierarchical terms, Mary (human) is higher than us, but infinitely lower than Christ (God and man).

Since the ancients understood their lowlinness in relation to God much better than we do, they naturally were attracted to the 100% human mother, whereby Christ could be accessed through her compassion and lowliness. Men knew they were lowly and unworthy. Mary was a human being, sharing in our lowliness. Yet she was also the Mother of God, and she had her son’s ear! Thus, many were instinctively drawn to approach God through His mother.

Today, man is arrogant. We don’t understand our own unworthiness in relation to God. Thus, for many, praying through Mary to Christ is not intuitive. But to men of the 1st and 2nd centuries, and later, it was just common sense. This Tradition has been handed on for 2000 years. But that is why Protestants don’t don’t “get it”, because their theology and spiritual practices have their roots in the 15th century, rather than in the ancient Traditions of The Church

Jesus never told the Apostle to ask Moses or Abraham for their intercession.

 

[aidanbradypop]

And do you have all the that Jesus told the Apostles written down somewhere?

Well we do have Scripture do we not? Yes I know there is a verse that you can post about how everything is not written down.

My question was not answer though. Why not just pray directly to God through Jesus. Scripiture does say you can. Why not just do that and have faith the God will answer according to His will?

As far as the part about Mary being higher than us, I can see why one would believe that if one believes in the Marian Dogmas

 

[Per_Crucem]

Well we do have Scripture do we not? Yes I know there is a verse that you can post about how everything is not written down.

My question was not answer though. Why not just pray directly to God through Jesus. Scripiture does say you can. Why not just do that and have faith the God will answer according to His will?

Ultimately, for the same reason we ask any other Christian to pray to God for our specific needs.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Well we do have Scripture do we not? Yes I know there is a verse that you can post about how everything is not written down.

My question was not answer though. Why not just pray directly to God through Jesus. Scripiture does say you can. Why not just do that and have faith the God will answer according to His will?

Catholicism is both/and, not either/or

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ultimately, for the same reason we ask any other Christian to pray to God for our specific needs.

Yes we do. I can ask you and you can acknowledge me asking. Whether you pray or not is up to you. What many non Catholics have an issue with is that by saying a soul in Heaven is praying for you means that they are all-knowing like God. No one knows for sure if that is the case except for God and the soul in Paradise.

If you pray for me, will God answer that prayer faster? Probably not. God answers prayers according to His will and not ours. If I pray for you, that means that I am placing you in my thoughts and hope to share in your suffering or joy.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Catholicism is both/and, not either/or

To what are you referring to Syro?

 

[pablope]

Well we do have Scripture do we not? Yes I know there is a verse that you can post about how everything is not written down.

But are you to rely on Scripture alone? You use and rely on your interpretations too…correct?

My question was not answer though. Why not just pray directly to God through Jesus. Scripiture does say you can. Why not just do that and have faith the God will answer according to His will?