I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

[Per_Crucem]

Hi, Denise,

I ask this in all sincerity and not in any way meant to be negative or disrespectful. My question is, when it comes to “tradition” how do you know that “man” did not get in the way with what has been taught? How do you know that someone hasn’t put their idea about Mary in somewhere in the growth and understanding of Tradition over the years? So much infallibility involved with man.

Considering that the majority of the traditions involving Mary appear very early in church history, why would they be discounted as corruptions? By introducing doubt about orthodox developments regarding Marian doctrine, does it not also cast doubt on the traditions of the church that you do accept, esp. those that came out of the early councils, like the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the two wills of Christ, the divinity of the Spirit, etc? Why are these not also corruptions or inventions of men?

 

[spedteacherita]

I find that hard to believe. So you have never asked anyone to pray for you because you only pray directly to God? Do you also tell those who ask for your prayers to pray directly to God themselves?

Scripture clearly shows all prayers Do Not go directly to God. Scripture also clearly show prayers of saints on earth going through saints and angels in heaven.

[Rv5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 … 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and **the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints

.]

[Rv 8:3 And **another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should Offer it with the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s Hand.]

Again scripture tells us saints in heaven rejoice in the presents of the angles when a sinner repents.

[Lk15:7 I say unto you, that likewise **joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 8 … 9 … 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.] The saints in heaven, in the presence of angels rejoice every time a sinner repents.

[Mt18:10 **Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. ]

Jesus says their angels behold the face of his Father. The angels stand in the presence of God. They have continual access to the Father. The angel serves as the child’s intercessor before God, otherwise what’s the point?

[HB 12:1 Wherefore seeing, **we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,]

If they see surely they will pray for us, wouldn’t you? Knowing this we can lay aside every weight as we have many in heaven praying for us. The Church is universal in time on earth and eternity. That one body of Christ, that vine, is united in the Holy Spirit and is one with Christ, in heaven, who is the Head of the body the Church.

[Eph3:1414 **For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.]

Hi, jhargus. As with the word “pray” we have a difference of semantics as to what the word “saints” means. As I understand the word, saints means any and all who are believers and followers of Christ not just those canonized by the Catholic Church.

 

[wmscott]

This is another example of extravagant beliefs being pulled from another very short scene with Mary.

John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine. "

4 And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. "

5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you. "

Really not that compelling.

So in context…

From the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary
John 2:4

Ver. 4. Some of the Fathers have spoken without sufficient precaution on this action of the blessed Virgin; supposing she was actuated by some inclination to vanity, in begging her Son to perform a miracle on this occasion; that some of the glory of it might accrue to her, and that on this account our Saviour answers her with severity, saying, Woman, (not Mother) what is it to thee or me. Other Fathers, with more reason, attribute the interference of the blessed Virgin to her charity and compassion for the new married couple. Whatever turn be given to our Saviour’s answer, it must be acknowledged it has in it the appearance of something severe. But the Fathers have explained it with mildness, observing that our Saviour only meant to say, Mother, what affair is it of ours if they want wine? Ought we to concern ourselves about that? Others think that he wished, by these words, to let his Mother know that she must not forestall the time appointed by the heavenly Father, as if her demand were unseasonable and out of time. But most of the Fathers and best commentators understand, that he speaks here not as man and Son of Mary, but as God; and in that quality, he observes to his Mother, I have nothing in common with you. It is not for you to prescribe when miracles are to be performed, which are not to be expected in compliance with any human respect. I know when my power is to be manifested for the greater glory of God. (Calmet) —See the like forms of speech, Mark i. 24; Luke iv. 34; &c. — My hour is not yet come. It is not yet time. He waited till the wine was quite done, lest any should believe that he had only increased the quantity, or had only mixed water with the wine. He would have his first miracle to be incontestable, and that all the company should be witnesses of it. (St. Augustine, et alii patres passim. — Christ’s first miracle in the New Testament, was a kind of transubstantiation in changing water into wine; the first miracle Moses performed when sent to the Jews, was transubstantiation. (Exodus iv.) The first Moses and Aaron performed, when sent to the Egyptians, was transubstantiation. (Exodus vii.)

 

[pablope]

I agree

d.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablope
Your interpretive tradition colors your understanding of Scripture…which is based on the rejection of the catholic roots of the Reformation.

I agree

So…then how can you tell which is the correct interpretation…yours or the Catholic church?

Quote:
I has been pointed out, the intercession of saints have Hebraic and OT roots…and its rejection has roots in the Reformation.

I hope they pray for us. Lord knows we need it

Well…what do you think those in heaven do? Play monopoly?

So you still doubt that those in heaven do not pray for us? If they do not pray for us…who do you think they pray for? Themselves?

Quote:
But it does not limit going through the saints

One could argue that it also teaches that there is not a need to do so

As usual…based on your understanding of Scripture with roots in the Reformation…more arguments that it excludes the prayers of intercession of those in heaven to validate your interpration…correct?

Quote:
A Church council that said Mary is sinless disagrees with you on this one.

Yes I know

okay…so which one has it right…you or the Church council?

[QUOTEPSo what have you done to honor Mary in your own way? How have your congregation honored Mary?

I doubt you will see us having a parade like the Cathedral in town.
[/quote]

Well…you did not answer the question…I did not ask if you will have a procession…not a parade.

So…what have you done to honor Mary in your own way?..have you had the courage to even say a prayer of thanks to her?

Off the top of my brain, we honor her for bringing the Savior of mankind into this world. She is the person God chose to bring his Son into flesh. We have no statues, prayers, or doctrines, yet she is forever honored as that Mother of Jesus Christ.

Personally? I give her a lot of respect. I can’t even imagine all the suffering she ensured to bring forth the Savior of the world.

---

Dustin

How have you shown her your respect and honor that you say she deserves?

 

[SyroMalankara]

I think this went from me mentioning that Jesus placed way less emphasis on Mary as Catholics do now; to being about statues.

Here, check this out:

Link

I have a serious disagreement with this verse being (mis)interpreted to mean that somehow Jesus was scolding his mother. That reading seems to me, very misled and not a properly comprehensive reading. In fact, the verse would make no sense if Jesus was diminishing his mother. For a similar example, it’d be like me saying something flippant to my sibling like “hey man, don’t tell me what to do, I’ll do it when I’m ready”, then a week later “those who do the will of my dad are like my brother” - who’d want to be brothers with someone who tells off their brother? If Christ is telling off his mom, then it makes no sense to tell his followers that doing the will of God makes them like his mom in his eyes. On the other hand, if “Woman, my time has not yet come” is a meeting of time and space - a recall back to Genesis where Eve is called the “woman” and future event in Revelation where the “woman clothed with the sun”… - it makes a lot of sense. This woman isn’t diminished, disparaged or put down, but is an important subject in Salvation History. Those who do the will of my Father will be as central in Salvation History - this makes much more sense.

 

[PRmerger]

Being overly excessive is far different than a simple kiss. That’s your issue is that you’re confusing something simple with something over the top.

Oh, well, then. If that’s your objection–“people shouldn’t be ‘overly excessive’ with their devotions”, then you’re right in line with Catholicism.

Catholicism stresses due reverence for what deserves reverence. She rejects being “overly excessive”.

 

[PRmerger]

I think this went from me mentioning that Jesus placed way less emphasis on Mary as Catholics do now; to being about statues.

If you’re going to follow that paradigm, then isn’t it true that Jesus placed way less emphasis on the Bible as many Protestants do now? Heck, he didn’t even have a Bible. No one did.

Not for 400 years.

 

[aidanbradypop]

So…then how can you tell which is the correct interpretation…yours or the Catholic church?

The exact same way that you do. You believe your faith tradition to contain the truth as do I. How? Prompted by the Holy Spirit.

Well…what do you think those in heaven do? Play monopoly?

So you still doubt that those in heaven do not pray for us? If they do not pray for us…who do you think they pray for? Themselves?

I believe they play Risk.

I tend to believe they pray for mankind in general. However, I will know for sure when I arrive there God willing.

As usual…based on your understanding of Scripture with roots in the Reformation…more arguments that it excludes the prayers of intercession of those in heaven to validate your interpration…correct?

You keep throwing this out there, yet you rely on the interpretation of the RCC. Orthodoxy will rely on the Orthodox interpretation. Etc etc

okay…so which one has it right…you or the Church council?

I will go with Scripture on this one. Mary being sinless has nothing to do with my salvation. I am sure you will disagree but like you say “what’s new.”

Well…you did not answer the question…I did not ask if you will have a procession…not a parade.

So…what have you done to honor Mary in your own way?..have you had the courage to even say a prayer of thanks to her?

How have you shown her your respect and honor that you say she deserves?

Sure I did. Just probably not the answer you wanted friend. I will answer one more though. We do not completely disregard her. We respect her for the role she played in bring Jesus into flesh. As I stated earlier, there are no statues, rosaries. …etc. I have been in fundamentalist churches that did not even mention her at Christmas.

No I will not say a prayer to her. I respect her for her role just like I respect Moses or John the Baptist for their role as well.

 

[PRmerger]

Is this verse speaking to actual saints in heaven or are the prayers a compilation of all those on earth? Just clarifying…

It is the saints in heaven who are receiving the prayers of the people on earth.

When He had taken the [h]book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.–Revelation 5:8

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, Denise,

I ask this in all sincerity and not in any way meant to be negative or disrespectful. My question is, when it comes to “tradition” how do you know that “man” did not get in the way with what has been taught? How do you know that someone hasn’t put their idea about Mary in somewhere in the growth and understanding of Tradition over the years? So much infallibility involved with man.

What if you substituted “tradition” in your question with “Scripture”?

That is: how do you know that St. Peter didn’t put his ideas about Christianity in somewhere? And what about St. Mark? How do you know that he did not get in the way of what was taught? Weren’t they fallible?

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, jhargus. As with the word “pray” we have a difference of semantics as to what the word “saints” means. As I understand the word, saints means any and all who are believers and followers of Christ not just those canonized by the Catholic Church.

You are Catholic when you say that. The Church professes that there are many in heaven who have not been formally canonized.

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by pablope View Post
So…then how can you tell which is the correct interpretation…yours or the Catholic church?

 

[Denise1957]

Hi, Denise,

I ask this in all sincerity and not in any way meant to be negative or disrespectful. My question is, when it comes to “tradition” how do you know that “man” did not get in the way with what has been taught? How do you know that someone hasn’t put their idea about Mary in somewhere in the growth and understanding of Tradition over the years? So much infallibility involved with man.

It all comes down to trust. I trust that the Church does not teach error, and that she would not allow error to be promulgated regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary. Fallibility with men, yes; with the Church…no. Our Lord Jesus Christ promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, and I believe Him. When I first investigated the Church (I had no intention of converting at first), I was blown away with so many things that made sense at last. The things that didn’t quite make sense, well, I got to the point where I didn’t worry about it, because most of it did.

Also, there is nothing in scripture that points to the eventual necessity of a reformation. Nothing at all.

 

[Peter_J]

And I hope this won’t sound glib, but at times like this I sometimes think to myself “If I read a discussion along these lines on PAF, or whatever comparable Protestant forum, would Protestantism come off sounding too good?” I’m guessing not.

P.S. I’m going to try to stop reading this thread (I say try because I have a bit of a weakness for reading stuff on the internet). I’ve been down this road enough times to know how many Protestants absolutely love to take something that a Catholic blogger or poster puts on the internet and conclude that it is “the Catholic position”. :sigh:

 

[Denise1957]

What if you substituted “tradition” in your question with “Scripture”?

That is: how do you know that St. Peter didn’t put his ideas about Christianity in somewhere? And what about St. Mark? How do you know that he did not get in the way of what was taught? Weren’t they fallible?

Excellent questions, PR!

 

[Denise1957]

No I will not say a prayer to her. I respect her for her role just like I respect Moses or John the Baptist for their role as well.

Except that St. John the Baptist or Moses did not consent to give birth to the Son of God, as the Blessed Virgin Mary did. It is because of her consent and obedience to God, that God became man, for our sake.

 

[aidanbradypop]

But which Holy Spirit? There can’t be many Holy Spirits, are there? How many Holy Spirits do you think there are?

I will answer this snarky comment with One

Did Jesus leave us being confused on this one for all eternity for those who are here on earth

There is no way to be sure now, today?

I guess so to the first comment and i guess not to the second one

But it is a reality you have to face…the RCC and Orthodox practically share the same interpretations…it is the protestants that have varied greatly…and there can be only one interpretation that is correct, not thousands…do you agree on this?

You say

practically share the same interpretations

but we both know this to be s stretch. Two wonderful friends of mine, a Catholic priest and a Orthodox priest, argue over interpretation constantly. Of course they do so charitable.

Shall I say this…I believe in the interpretation of my faith tradition just you do your own. If we agreed then we would both be Catholic so shall we simply disagree charitably?

No…Scripture is silent on this…it is your interpretation of Scripture that is saying so…and so the follow up is…is your interpretation correct?

Yes

I agree with what the Church council has said…which had Scriptures also…that you interpet differently.

Again the question…is Scripture correct or the Church council?

Well the council was correct if you subscribe to that interpretation. Why is this becoming a circle conversation? You agree…I do not. Is there really anything else to hit the dead horse with?

I was asking for specific things you or your congregation have done…to show respect and honor, as you stated.

So it seems, from your response, that you have done really nothing except to say you honor her…only in words but not in actions…correct?

If honor involves praying to Mary, kissing statues, doing processions…etc then my answer would have to be no if that has to be the only way one can honor someone

Yes in thought and words. Beyond that would be no

Peace friend

 

[aidanbradypop]

Except that St. John the Baptist or Moses did not consent to give birth to the Son of God, as the Blessed Virgin Mary did. It is because of her consent and obedience to God, that God became man, for our sake.

Yes she did Denise and we should be thankful for the role she played.

 

[Denise1957]

Yes she did Denise and we should be thankful for the role she played.

Very true.

 

[Denise1957]

Hi, jhargus. As with the word “pray” we have a difference of semantics as to what the word “saints” means. As I understand the word, saints means any and all who are believers and followers of Christ not just those canonized by the Catholic Church.

The Mormons also hold this view about saints, due to their interpretation of scripture. The Catholic Church, however, did not interpret it as such.