I did not consent to my creation

[Irish_Hare]

I did not consent to be created or born. I find myself now, alive, and forced to make a choice: either to follow all that Christ has commanded in order to arrive, at the end of my earthly life, in eternal paradise, or, I can reject the plan of God and spend my eternity in a miserable and tormented state we call hell. Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation, but we shall leave that aside for now.

I hear a lot about God respecting our free will and wanting us to have a free choice, but where is the freedom in having been created and born without your consent, and then forced to decide on two hard options:

1. To follow Jesus Christ: hard work in this life, paradise in the next;

or:

1. A life lived for oneself, with sporadic pleasurable experiences now and then, but finishing in the eternal misery of hell.

I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation. That way, those of us who choose not to be part of this creation and who do not wish to make the best of a bad situation (having been created and born into a fallen world) by choosing God and doing all that that entails, actually have a real choice: to go back to the state of non-being they ‘had’ before God created them.

I don’t think the Catholic faith has an answer to my question. I suppose some would say that I am sick, either simply through having been a member of the fallen human race, or else that I am mentally ill, depressed, for example. But I am saying if I don’t want to be on the bandwagon, then surely I should be allowed to get off? Or does God simply insist that he will ‘be all in all’ for good or bad. Either way, we will be in God’s love, either in the burning passion of heaven, or the scorching fire of hell. Thus, God does not merely propose eternal life to us, he boxes us in, forcing us to make a choice without leaving any option for those who do not wish to participate.

 

[Gorgias]

I did not consent to be created or born. Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation, but we shall leave that aside for now.

So, you want to set aside the real question, and just kvetch about how unfair the universe is to you? OK…

I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation.

However, that would fail to take into account an important consideration: the free will of your parents. Through their free will decision to engage in the acts by which you were conceived, your existence was actualized. Therefore, if God were to allow an option for annihilation, God would be trampling on that exercise of free will of your parents. They acted, as it were, on your behalf – asserting, as proxies, for your creation.

You can talk all you want about how that choice by proxy makes for interesting metaphysics, but you can’t lay your perception of the (putatively negative) effects of that choice at God’s feet. Sorry…

But I am saying if I don’t want to be on the bandwagon, then surely I should be allowed to get off? Or does God simply insist that he will ‘be all in all’ for good or bad. Either way, we will be in God’s love, either in the burning passion of heaven, or the scorching fire of hell. Thus, God does not merely propose eternal life to us, he boxes us in, forcing us to make a choice without leaving any option for those who do not wish to participate.

No… I think that God is aware of all the free-will decisions that are made, subsequent to God’s act of creation, and God allows these decisions to take place and have their natural effects. One natural effect is that people who have been created generally have the opportunity to decide how they will spend eternity: with God, or in isolation from God. The “punishment” you speak of is a natural consequence of the choice to live eternity away from God. If you think that, having experienced God in an immediate way, following your death, that you can be happy living eternity apart from God… well then, God gives you the freedom to choose that course.

Hell isn’t, as it were, burning in objective fire, so to speak, but rather, burning in the subjective realization of the loss of eternity with God. Do you think that eternity by yourself, without God, is cool? Then you aren’t, by definition, worried about not getting to heaven, right? (Of course, I would assert that you’re seriously mistaken, but…)

 

[yellowantphil]

Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation. … I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation.

There’s no way to choose whether you want to exist in the first place, so the nearest option would be to choose annihilation, as you said. Why doesn’t God give us that choice? Well… I don’t know.

This isn’t really answering the question, but I think that the best choice a person can make is to love and worship God. So even if God gave us the option of annihilation, we still ought to choose to live with him instead.

It’s a good question though. Is there some reason why God can’t annihilate us? We were created in the image of God, and he can’t annihilate himself… perhaps a consequence of being made in the image of God is that we necessarily live forever? And so animals can be annihilated when they die, but we can’t? I don’t know… I’m just speculating.

(People say God can do anything, but he can’t perform a logical absurdity. I don’t think that God is able to stop being God, by annihilating himself.)

 

[Khalid]

I didn’t consent to my creation either. For very long time, I was what is denoted in philosophical circles an antinatalist. I’ll have to think about how exactly I deal with it (I’m going to give a quick answer and say that, if this life was all there was, I would not; but the chance that the non-trivial suffering in this life can not be outweighed by any amount of perfect pleasure, less infinite - but the beatific vision is supposed to be infinite pleasure or beatitude), as, even for me, it has engaged bitterness. There is no such thing as “uncreation”, or “retroactive annihilation”, which is what would be required.

We have no free will before we are conceived. We are conceived from the free will of our parents, or of providence: once we are conceived, we do have free will. Having life is traditionally considered a great boon, so there has been in philosophy no “problem of birth” like the “problem of evil”. Although, I shall think of it, as, it seems that there very well may be a “problem of birth”, although I have a feeling that on close inspection it will either turn out to be a subset of the problem of evil, or will funnel in to it (i.e. birth is a problem because it is birth in to evil).

 

[po18guy]

Had you been allowed the choice of being created or not, you would not be here! We, who are wont to use our free will wrongly, would reject even the love that we experience during and after our creation. Yet, we were created out of love - and nothing else. It is our response to that love which matters.

Atheists use almost your exact wording - atheists who are angry, but do not know Who, or just what to be angry at. Yet, they naturally gravitate toward religious forums to make their complaint! Odd, that.

 

[Irish_Hare]

I’m not an atheist. I am a Catholic. However, I have a problem as I indicated in my first post. I believe in God, but my Catholic conception of God leaves me feeling deeply frustrated.

I feel like I have been dragged along to a party (creation) that I do not want to be part of, yet my host won’t respect my free will not to be there.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I did not consent to be created or born. …

How do you know? There is no Time in Eternity. God creates a human soul in Eternity, and places it in Time. In that creation, you have no idea if you were asked to consent to your life here. Perhaps you were. Makes sense, it’s consistent with God’s love for us and His respect for our free will.

*“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb…”
*
Probably not just Jeremiah.

Pray, have faith in God’s love for you and do the best you can to love. Your life is a huge and wonderful opportunity for Grace. Life is eternal. Now. Not after you die, right now.

 

[Jennet]

I once felt as the OP did. I craved non-existence…

And yet, I now see God’s wisdom in not permitting me that option. If annihilation had been a choice, I would doubtless have taken it many, many times in previous years, and therefore missed out - not only on the graces He wished to bestow upon me - but also my chance to help others along the way.

I have acknowledged that I am not my own. I didn’t make the choice to exist and there are many times when it would have been easier not to… but if my loving, gracious Lord chose to create me, then I must bow to His infinitely better judgement.

I do sympathise, Irish Hare, and I know that the answer that has satisfied me may not be one that you can accept at present. For what it is worth though, you are in my prayers.

:console:

 

[yellowantphil]

I have acknowledged that I am not my own.

That’s a good point.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NAB:

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body.

 

[Irish_Hare]

I once felt as the OP did. I craved non-existence…

And yet, I now see God’s wisdom in not permitting me that option. If annihilation had been a choice, I would doubtless have taken it many, many times in previous years, and therefore missed out - not only on the graces He wished to bestow upon me - but also my chance to help others along the way.

I have acknowledged that I am not my own. I didn’t make the choice to exist and there are many times when it would have been easier not to… but if my loving, gracious Lord chose to create me, then I must bow to His infinitely better judgement.

I do sympathise, Irish Hare, and I know that the answer that has satisfied me may not be one that you can accept at present. For what it is worth though, you are in my prayers.

:console:

Thanks Jennet. I am tired of life. I am weary. I have no motivation to keep going. I didn’t ask to be part of this. I just want to go to sleep and cease to be. I know I don’t deserve heaven, but I don’t want hell. Hence annihilation is my fantasy.

 

[mark_a]

What do you find so objectionable about Catholic moral teaching?

 

[exoflare]

How do you know? There is no Time in Eternity. God creates a human soul in Eternity, and places it in Time. In that creation, you have no idea if you were asked to consent to your life here. Perhaps you were.

Can somebody give more clarification on this? I thought it was a heresy.

 

[Irish_Hare]

What do you find so objectionable about Catholic moral teaching?

I don’t think I made any comment about such teaching. I find the RCC moral teaching to make sense. If you read the OP you will see what my actual issue is.

 

[Irish_Hare]

Can somebody give more clarification on this? I thought it was a heresy.

The soul is created at the moment of conception. In eternity, we are nothing more than a thought in the mind of God. At our conception, that thought inspires the creation of a unique human soul.

 

[mark_a]

I don’t think I made any comment about such teaching. I find the RCC moral teaching to make sense. If you read the OP you will see what my actual issue is.

Ok. That was a big fat misread on my part. Sorry about that.

But after re-reading, I still don’t get it.

Anyway, best wishes to you!

 

[fhansen]

I did not consent to be created or born. I find myself now, alive, and forced to make a choice: either to follow all that Christ has commanded in order to arrive, at the end of my earthly life, in eternal paradise, or, I can reject the plan of God and spend my eternity in a miserable and tormented state we call hell. Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation, but we shall leave that aside for now.

I hear a lot about God respecting our free will and wanting us to have a free choice, but where is the freedom in having been created and born without your consent, and then forced to decide on two hard options:

1. To follow Jesus Christ: hard work in this life, paradise in the next;

or:

1. A life lived for oneself, with sporadic pleasurable experiences now and then, but finishing in the eternal misery of hell.

I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation. That way, those of us who choose not to be part of this creation and who do not wish to make the best of a bad situation (having been created and born into a fallen world) by choosing God and doing all that that entails, actually have a real choice: to go back to the state of non-being they ‘had’ before God created them.

I don’t think the Catholic faith has an answer to my question. I suppose some would say that I am sick, either simply through having been a member of the fallen human race, or else that I am mentally ill, depressed, for example. But I am saying if I don’t want to be on the bandwagon, then surely I should be allowed to get off? Or does God simply insist that he will ‘be all in all’ for good or bad. Either way, we will be in God’s love, either in the burning passion of heaven, or the scorching fire of hell. Thus, God does not merely propose eternal life to us, he boxes us in, forcing us to make a choice without leaving any option for those who do not wish to participate.

You’re simply asked to choose goodness-and what could be wrong with good? Existence, for one, is unarguably, objectively good, IMO, and according to the teachings of our faith as well. Would you choose non-existence, this instance, if given the chance? If not you’re tacitly, at least, agreeing with God that existence is good.

Or alternatively you can decide that there is no choice, that man is not a moral agent with the capacity to decide for good or for evil, or that, even if he is, that there aren’t any eternal consequences to his choices. It’s all up to us in the end where we think the truth lies-and how we’ll live accordingly.

 

[ricks1948]

The soul is created at the moment of conception. In eternity, we are nothing more than a thought in the mind of God. At our conception, that thought inspires the creation of a unique human soul.

The best pro-life statment i’ve read in a long time!

 

[Gaber]

I did not consent to be created or born. I find myself now, alive, and forced to make a choice: either to follow all that Christ has commanded in order to arrive, at the end of my earthly life, in eternal paradise, or, I can reject the plan of God and spend my eternity in a miserable and tormented state we call hell. Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation, but we shall leave that aside for now.

I hear a lot about God respecting our free will and wanting us to have a free choice, but where is the freedom in having been created and born without your consent, and then forced to decide on two hard options:

1. To follow Jesus Christ: hard work in this life, paradise in the next;

or:

1. A life lived for oneself, with sporadic pleasurable experiences now and then, but finishing in the eternal misery of hell.

I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation. That way, those of us who choose not to be part of this creation and who do not wish to make the best of a bad situation (having been created and born into a fallen world) by choosing God and doing all that that entails, actually have a real choice: to go back to the state of non-being they ‘had’ before God created them.

I don’t think the Catholic faith has an answer to my question. I suppose some would say that I am sick, either simply through having been a member of the fallen human race, or else that I am mentally ill, depressed, for example. But I am saying if I don’t want to be on the bandwagon, then surely I should be allowed to get off? Or does God simply insist that he will ‘be all in all’ for good or bad. Either way, we will be in God’s love, either in the burning passion of heaven, or the scorching fire of hell. Thus, God does not merely propose eternal life to us, he boxes us in, forcing us to make a choice without leaving any option for those who do not wish to participate.

My I suggest that you are framing your vwery good and useful question within a very limited framework that doesn’t nearly cover the possibilities, never mind what might be the reality of the situation? I know it can hardly be helped, but we do put such difficulties right back into the terms that caused them and expect a solution. Eithr you wil bend your mind into accepting some rationalizati from your premises, or you will forbear a conclusion and look into a wider range of possibilites, or you will go bonkers. there might be shades of difference between those and maybe other minor options, but unless you go and discovert how your mind actually works and who and what you are, you may be plagued with irreconsilable “answers.”

 

[Qoeleth]

I think that useful is not to get to hung up on creation and origins. What is, is. Think of God firstly as the Redeemer- the one who will save you from the tribulations of this earthly life.

In Erewhon, by Samuel Butler, the unborn need to request being born before they are, and, if they do so request, sign a contract accepting what happens. In Buddhism, desire gives riste to existence, which gives rise to birth. In Christianity, to be born is to inherit the temporal burden of the sin of Adam.

 

[JDaniel]

I did not consent to be created or born. I find myself now, alive, and forced to make a choice: either to follow all that Christ has commanded in order to arrive, at the end of my earthly life, in eternal paradise, or, I can reject the plan of God and spend my eternity in a miserable and tormented state we call hell. Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation, but we shall leave that aside for now.

I hear a lot about God respecting our free will and wanting us to have a free choice, but where is the freedom in having been created and born without your consent, and then forced to decide on two hard options:

1. To follow Jesus Christ: hard work in this life, paradise in the next;

or:

1. A life lived for oneself, with sporadic pleasurable experiences now and then, but finishing in the eternal misery of hell.

I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation. That way, those of us who choose not to be part of this creation and who do not wish to make the best of a bad situation (having been created and born into a fallen world) by choosing God and doing all that that entails, actually have a real choice: to go back to the state of non-being they ‘had’ before God created them.

I don’t think the Catholic faith has an answer to my question. I suppose some would say that I am sick, either simply through having been a member of the fallen human race, or else that I am mentally ill, depressed, for example. But I am saying if I don’t want to be on the bandwagon, then surely I should be allowed to get off? Or does God simply insist that he will ‘be all in all’ for good or bad. Either way, we will be in God’s love, either in the burning passion of heaven, or the scorching fire of hell. Thus, God does not merely propose eternal life to us, he boxes us in, forcing us to make a choice without leaving any option for those who do not wish to participate.

Irish:

There’s an old story about a guy who uses dynamite to catch fish. If you haven’t heard it, it goes like this. One day, he rowed out into the middle of a central Florida lake, lit the fuse on a stick of dynamite and threw it into the water. Shortly after the dynamite exploded, several fish were seen to float to the top, whereupon he scooped them out of the water. In a few minutes, he did it again. Presently, a game warden rows up and asks him in a sort of immoderately verbal way, just what he thought he was doing. While the game warden is delivering his diatribe, the fisherman lights another stick of dynamite and tosses it into the hands of the game warden, saying, “What are you going to do, fish or whine?”

That’s where you are right now: standing in a row boat with a lit stick of dynamite in your hands. And, here’s where I ask you that same question.

God bless,
jd