I don't fear hell

[AlanFromWichita]

OneSheep and Pitcharan, I’m still considering your posts and still plan to respond, but I don’t know when. I’ve been thinking a lot of different things in the very recent past so I’m still kind of in flux over some of them.

But to such a simple question, I wish I could have a simple answer: yes or no … but I can’t for a few reasons, and it seems to be a good starting place to try to sort that out.

Would you consider yourself a God fearing man? Being a God fearing man is really huge in Judaism, and I think it’s well accepted by Catholics.

Sigh. I’m still a bit iffy on use of the word “fear” because it seems to mean so many things to so many people in so many contexts, but I’ll try to address your question. I’m not sure anybody will get anything out of this post either for edification or something tangible to respond to, so if you’re looking for something profound, you might want to scroll on by.

I guess at this point I’m not really sure what words I would use to describe myself, much less define myself. I am a “practicing” Catholic, I enjoy going to Mass and especially enjoy playing the music for people to sing along. I go to Knights meetings and use to be a leader in several church organizations until my doctor ordered me to quit them. I love God like I love my parents, but I don’t “fear” my parents. I very much “miss” my Dad, and with Mom’s recent problems with her mind, in a way I’m starting to “miss” her too, even though she’s sitting about eight feet from me right now. I fear losing the company of my mother if she should die, just like before Dad died I feared losing his. They have been sources of unconditional love, to the best of my perception and imagination, so they are about as close as I can come to a human analogy of what God’s love might be like.

But I really do not fear losing the company of God because God will not die and honestly, it has been a great while (and before my last confession) that I did anything knowingly and with consent, that was also grave matter – so if I am separated from God I would not know why. I think it would be terrible if that happened, but I trust that Jesus did send me a Helper and Guide, and as long as I do my best to be open to His guidance, I just don’t know what else I can do. And just as an athlete will never win by keeping an eye on the referee instead of the opponent, the clock instead of the finish line, or a person walking looking down in fear of stepping on a crack may not be able to see where he is going, it just doesn’t seem useful in any way to me, God, or any of God’s creation for me to live in a state of fear … meaning in a state of anxiety over things going wrong. Maybe anxiety motivates some people, but it paralyzes me.

So again, do I fear God? If He teaches me, through His Church that the only real way I can be separated from sin is if I intentionally choose to knowingly violate His commands involving grave matter, then I am not afraid He will send me to hell. And if I’m wrong on that, and I do not do such things intentionally and He sends me to hell anyway, then how would it have helped in any way for me to have lived my earthly life being afraid? So to my (possibly convoluted) reasoning, to “fear” that I’m going to hell based on nothing I’ve knowingly and intentionally done, is essentially to NOT trust God or the teachings of His church. Unless I can commit mortal sin without knowing I’ve done it, or unless God sends me to hell even though I have not committed mortal sin, than it seems all bets are off because I’m misled about Church teachings involving the very core issues of salvation, then if someone shows me where the Church teaches otherwise I’d be very afraid of God, indeed. And if I’m not wrong about Church teachings, but the teachings are wrong about the core issues of salvation, then why even bother with listening to the Church on other subjects any more than a philosopher or even a comedian?

Do I do wrong things? Things I regret? Things that might even constitute venial sin? Yes. But do such sins “earn” our way to hell? Why would Jesus have bothered to come and die for us if following every letter of every rule was our only ticket – didn’t we have that system before Jesus came?

Perhaps if I were cavalier about “small” wrongs and didn’t care that I did them, it would somehow become a mortal sin, but I’m not. I am probably my own worse critic and judge, and it’s taken me many years to get over thinking poorly of myself compared to others. I didn’t as a child, but I got beaten down and it’s taken a while to get up. I look at people around whom I can run rings, let’s say, in mathematics or in certain engineering environments, and for this reason or that I find them more worthy of respect than myself as an overall human being – not just in the context I know I can beat them. In fact, people who go through life seemingly happy and loving and helpful who are LESS capable or knowledgeable or with fewer material possessions and resources then me, impress me more than I impress myself because they come do more with less.

It may sound like I’m having an attack of depression. Been there, done that, and this isn’t it. I am feeling kind of sad, though, compared to usual, this afternoon. But please do not offer me sympathy because I’m not looking for that. I’m only saying it in case somebody is worried about me based on what might come across as self-deprecating remarks above. Do not worry about my happiness; I have no shortage of people who love and care about me, and if I need a shoulder to cry on they are readily available. Thank you, though, for listening for when you listen to me you are treating me like I were Jesus, about whom His father told us to “listen to Him.”

Alan

 

[Samson01]

Hi Alan, I once had a friend, once…Anyways, doesn’t sound like you have turned away from God at any particulr time or if you have in the past, are at peace with reconciliation. This may not be the case for some like me. There have been many times I have shaken my fist at God in word and action. And times done very grave things. You describe the possibilty of veniel sins, but what of the hardened sinner?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hi Alan,
yes I too was with you but not any more. I am convinced beyond doubt that ‘fear of God’ is the beginning of wisdom.

I have been through it and can say for sure that you too will retract your above views.

I have a lot of respect for your views, so I’ll try to draw you out in ways that might help me understand your disagreements with mine.

Can you describe exactly what “fear of God” means to you?

Does it mean you live in constant fear of being sent to hell lest you die?

Does it mean that you love Him and want to stay close to him and are not pleased that any imperfections keep you from being as close as you want?

Where do you draw the line between “fearing God,” and “living a life of fear or paranoia” in an unhealthy way? What constitutes scrupulosity?

No Alan, the examples you give of ‘fear not’ are totally irrelevant.

When our Lord told them ‘fear not’ they were in a state of fear of the Jews.

when the angel told the shepherds ‘fear not’, they were in a state of fear of the unprecedented brightness of the angels that they saw for the first time in their lives.

OK, then for purposes of this discussion, we can disregard those examples.

But didn’t our Lord tell us not to worry about tomorrow? If we harbor fear over being sent to hell if we should die before tomorrow, then how is that not worrying about tomorrow? Wouldn’t that be more important than whether we worry about what we should eat or wear?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hi Alan, I once had a friend, once…Anyways, doesn’t sound like you have turned away from God at any particulr time or if you have in the past, are at peace with reconciliation. This may not be the case for some like me. There have been many times I have shaken my fist at God in word and action. And times done very grave things. You describe the possibilty of veniel sins, but what of the hardened sinner?

I’ve done very grave things in the past, mostly during my college years and a couple years thereafter, knowing what the Church said about them, but if I trust Church teachings and the sacrament of confession, I’ve been forgiven for them.

I have done some very grave things, even less than a year ago, and for some of them I’m lucky I didn’t get caught or there could have serious repercussions both legally and in terms of relationships. But then I was having severe manic episodes and delusions, and was convinced that the Holy Spirit was leading me to do those things. :whacky:

That’s one reason I try not to be too smug or presumptuous that I am truly led by the Spirit in just about anything – even if it’s told to me that it is Church teaching. I trust, though, because God has seen me through countless times when I could have been killed or harmed greatly, and as a mathematics lover it is statistically significant beyond my chances of winning the lottery. So if I don’t a Guardian Angel looking out for me, and/or the Spirit isn’t really guiding me to the extent I know how to listen, or if there is no God who loves me and sees me through these times of trouble and even “participation in evil,” then there must a godless world that is doing a pretty convincing job of fooling me.

I’m very curious about you, though, and how it is you say you are a “hardened sinner.” Are you saying that you knowingly and with full consent of the will do grave things? When you do them, is it like a reaction to something, or is it premeditated?

For example, a couple of times I’ve been very angry with another person, both Catholics, and undergone a calculated attempt to cause them difficulty without their knowing who did it or how. Sure I was also a bit manic at the time, but honestly there is no clear-cut boundary between whether someone has a psychological disorder or not; in practice they are determined empirically and statistically, and medicated based on outward observations and often even checklists. If you have over 7 checks, they give you this medicine. If you have 5 or 6, they give you that. So really, I think being classified as “disabled” due to severe bipolar disorder is a matter of degree and judgment – literally I testified before a judge for him to determine, given all the evidence from doctors and other sources.

So can I use mental illness as an excuse for things I know were against Church teachings any more than someone else who has been not so diagnosed? I’m not so sure.

But I have confessed these things and in some cases I was given absolution. One time (June 8, 2001) I was so frightened by an angry priest I ran out of the cathedral and spat on the cornerstone, and drove directly to my retired pastor’s apartment, got on my knees on the floor, told him what I did, and asked if I’d excommunicated myself or if he could forgive me. He said to me, “Alan, I cannot give you absolution for you have not sinned.”

So it seems to me that performing acts of disrespect against God and His Church – at least the worldly property of it – does in fact depend on circumstance somehow. Perhaps it is a matter of “full consent.”

Then again, like another said, who would give “full” consent (assuming sanity, which is not a clear cut issue) to doing something that would cause everlasting agony?

I have often been called a relativist, but I know there are mitigating factors when having committed grave matter. One quick example, “thou shalt not kill.” The catechism has examples of when killing a human being is not sinful. I have been called “non-Catholic” for having “relativist” views by ostensible absolutists – funny that in saying I’m not Catholic after having been baptized one, they are themselves at odds with Church teaching.

So I guess I don’t know enough about you to say whether you are in danger of hell, and if I did know more about you I could only judge based on outward observations because unless I can read your heart like only God can, I cannot presume to make a “correct” judgment.

Now I have questions for you: do you fear going to hell for you actions? Do you do these bad things in a calculated way and premeditated, or just as a reaction to a troublesome situation? Do you go to confession? You don’t have to answer these questions, and the answers may not be relevant anyway, but your post made me curious.

When you say you had a friend, once, though, that did concern me. Based on that one sentence, I wonder if you do have some symptoms or problem that drives off others. Actually, I have discussions both online and in person who have issues that others say they want to be there for them, but then they’re not. For example, when somebody tells a person who is truly experiencing a deep depression, “you can always come talk to me; I’ll be there for you,” often they don’t know what they’re getting into and end up avoiding or shunning the person, thus breaking the promise they made in apparent ignorance. After all, depressed people aren’t always very fun to be around, and can cause sadness in other people.

Also, I’m curious as to why you would ask me these questions? I invite you to send me a PM if you think there is anything I can help you with. I may not be able to help, but I promise I won’t shun you.

Alan

 

[Samson01]

Too much to quote, so I’ll break it down the best I can. For one, I say I had a friend once because basically I’m quite isolated and don’t get out much. Just a few years ago i had quit a few friends, but things change and it seems when I was dxed with cancer, that had an effect of friendships and their look into mortality. Another thing, I have been in the same situation as you in pouring out my guts before a judge only to recieve partial benefits of disibility for a short time. Seems for some being bi-polar, ptsd, ocd isn’t enough to justify disibility. Most of the things i struggle with are self destructive in nature as a reaction to various things. I guess resentment is the best description. Resentment for a **** hand. I do the best I can to others, fully believing in the Lord above, for the sake of others, not myself. I stear no one in the wrong direction on purpose. Maybe I have even tasted hell at some point in life as a warning…still discerning that. maybe I don’t wish any of what I have experienced on anyone, friend or foe and slowly that act itself may help my case… I have studied things of faith intently for 6+ years and can say it is no free ride. Samson

 

[AlanFromWichita]

As far as the “mortal sin” section of your writing, my question is "does anyone ever
intentionally harm what they see as a human? My answer: no. The crucifixion is a case in point.

By and large I’m inclined to agree for most adults, but I’ve personally seen examples to the contrary. When I was in grade school and high school, there were kids who intentionally inflicted harm on others, just to see them react. Myself, I was a “nerd boy” but the “popular kids” in grade school pretty much left me alone because I tutored some of them weekly at their homes or my home, and they didn’t want to risk my telling anyone about it. In high school gym class, it was a different matter. A small group of “jocks” and “heads” would stand around me while I was getting undressed after gym class, and repeatedly hit me in the arm in the same spot, trying to get me to cry and asking me in sarcastic tones why I wasn’t crying – the others in the class saw it but did nothing about it; those days you just didn’t dare go around “tattling” or intervening. I had done nothing to them or said nothing against them; it was purely recreational. I never did cry on the outside, but I went home in pain every day. No way could I tell the coach; they were big and strong it would have gotten me clobbered – now that I think about it I’m not so sure the coach didn’t know. Nor did I dare tell my parents, lest it got back to the school; if those kids had gotten punished at all, I have zero doubt there would have been repercussions.

As soon as we resent, I think that the mind forms an “object of resentment”. One bit of evidence for this may be the kind of case where say, a controversial activist dies in a plane crash. If it is an accident, no resentment. If there is evidence of foul play, the mind searches for the perpetrator, the Object of Resentment(OR from now on). What does my mind do with the OR? Well, the OR is evil, a jerk, an a**hole, or any other negative epithet you can think of. When a person is an OR to me, I am blind to their humanity.

I think you make a good point. I think many people want to find “who is responsible” for anything wrong – like many problems I see with people, I think this mentality is often reinforced by certain authority figures. Using my own experience again as an example, my grade school teachers would routinely punish the whole class when one kid did something wrong, expecting peer pressure to work against the perp. (Kind of like a coach making the whole class do more pushups because one kid had his knees on the floor.) If the teachers didn’t know who was to blame, they had two basic strategies; one was everybody put their heads down on their desks and those responsible were to raise their right hands, and if that didn’t work the whole class was punished and there was a “reward” and/or “get out of punishment” deal for anyone who “squealed” – note “squealing” was rare even when the perp was known by everyone in the class.

I think that the crucifiers did not know they were killing a man, in terms of seeing a loving, beautiful being. They were killing what they saw as an evil, something that was not only disposable, but was “rightly” disposed of. So, to me, the “knowing not what they do” is that the crucifiers (the crowd, all involved) did not know of Jesus’ humanity, much less his divinity, which is what we do every time we attack those we demonize. Forming the OR is not under our control, it happens as automatically as a fear response to a coming locomotive. What we can control, with God’s help, is that we can forgive.

I think by and large you are probably right. This is mob mentality and you see the same thing happening to this day. For example, the accused are “crucified” in the media before trial, and even with weak or insufficient evidence (whether due to clever criminal, lousy police work, overly-zealous and cocky prosecutors, or whatever) if the jury does not find them “guilty” then the jury itself becomes a secondary OR.

A recent example of this was the Casey Anthony trial in the death of her two-year-old daughter Caylee. She was clearly disturbed and uncooperative with investigators to say the least, and even the jury members thought she likely had done it, but did not have sufficient evidence to find her guilty (note that the prosecution was seeking the death penalty for Casey). Even many of my own FaceBook “Christian” friends were livid; they wanted BLOOD. But the evidence was apparently just not there, that Casey had actually done the killing. A major problem was that it took so long to “find” the body, that possibly valuable evidence was lost. Three days in a row, August 11, 12, and 13 of 2008, a man found the body and reported it to police, who in one case didn’t return the call and in another did a brief “search” and found “nothing.” Finally, four months later he reported the body again and this time they “found” it, but by then the evidence was scant. But were my FaceBook friends angry at the police? No, and when I mentioned it they had all sorts of reasons to dismiss my comments. They wanted CASEY killed, because she was the media-fueled OR all along, and nothing was going to change that.

So I agree with your analysis, but at least Pilate knew He was innocent (Matt 27:19) although Pilate maybe couldn’t have saved the OR by then anyway and was looking out for his own skin. The centurion remarked on His divinity (Mark 15:39) but that wasn’t until after Jesus died.

(continued in next post – sorry I do this a lot but I honestly don’t have time to edit it down.)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued from last post)

I did not stop fearing hell until I forgave everything I resented, as I have stated in many of my posts.

I think that is very important. Once we learn to forgive even our worst enemies (btw I LOVED your thread about forgiving Osama Bin Laden) it helps to see that maybe the “foolishness of God” isn’t so foolish after all.

Arguably, all of us need to fear hell when we are children, because this fear will keep our behavior in check until we develop the empathy and love of others sufficient to diminish the need for fear (albeit unfounded) to motivate us to behave. I must say, I did not raise my kids to fear hell, but they got plenty of hell from me when they misbehaved, my communication of non-acceptance sufficed.

I agree that it is arguable. I doubt a “controlled experiment” could easily be conducted on this, and I don’t personally know of anyone who was raised without parents, teachers, or other authority figures using fear as one of the primary weapons to exact “correct” behavior from children. Sad for me to say, my older children included – at least when they were young. After some parental experience (we had six children), I came to believe that punishment should be administered a) if a child knew or should have known an act was wrong but did it anyway, and b) knew there was an alternative behavior based on the situation that would not have been wrong. Otherwise I eventually modeled after my father, who if these criteria were not apparently met, would instruct us in the matter and there was no more issue. (He never explained it to me but that’s what he did.) IMO, punishment is otherwise basically child abuse, and when I ran this idea by my psychiatrist a couple years ago, he agreed wholeheartedly.

However, there is one instance I would spank my children when they were under the age where they could discuss such matters, and I don’t regret it. That is when a child is called, and runs the other way, as if it were a game. That frightens me greatly and I SMH when I see mothers in stores call their children and the children laugh and run the other way, and the mothers chase them – sometimes laughing themselves, even if out of embarrassment. To me, this is a life/death situation; if a child plays this “game” in the front yard there is nothing stopping it from running out into the street. Most of them didn’t do that, and I don’t remember having to spank any of them for that more than once or twice until they never did it again.

For me, the fear of hell was hell.

I ran across this in Fr. Rohr’s “Falling Upward” yesterday pgs 102-103, and I think it belongs in this thread:

“If you accept a punitive notion of God, who punishes or even eternally tortures those who do not love him, then you have an absurd universe where most people end up being more loving than God! …No one is in hell unless that individual himself or herself (knowingly, OneSheep adds) chooses a final aloneness and separation… Why would Jesus’ love be so unconditional while he was in this world, and suddenly become totally conditional after death? Is it the same Jesus? … How could Jesus ask us to bless, forgive and heal our enemies, which he clearly does (Matt 5:43-48) unless God is doing it first and always?”

An excellent quote and totally apropos for this thread. Father Rohr (though controversial to some) has done me a lot of good. I first heard of him a few months ago, from another poster who sent me a couple of his CD’s about dualistic thinking. As far as I can remember, his daily emails are the only daily emails I’ve ever intentionally signed up to receive.

Alan

PS I just noticed there has been a second “vote” on this thread, bringing it from 5.00 to 3.00 average. I wonder if whoever voted “1 star” might consider sending me a PM explaining why they voted that way so I can learn to make better threads in the future.

 

[Pitcharan]

…Can you describe exactly what “fear of God” means to you?

Does it mean you live in constant fear of being sent to hell lest you die?

Does it mean that you love Him and want to stay close to him and are not pleased that any imperfections keep you from being as close as you want?

Where do you draw the line between “fearing God,” and “living a life of fear or paranoia” in an unhealthy way? What constitutes scrupulosity?

Will you deny that shepherding requires a ‘carrot and stick’ approach. Will you bring up your child without punishing but only rewarding. You punish as well as reward only out of love. Because you love the child you show the right way through punishments and rewards. Your child avoids doing wrong out of fear of the consequence.

However, if the child has no fear of punishment, then you have a problem-child.

OK, then for purposes of this discussion, we can disregard those examples.

But didn’t our Lord tell us not to worry about tomorrow? If we harbor fear over being sent to hell if we should die before tomorrow, then how is that not worrying about tomorrow?

I am listing down from The Bible, what to fear, what not to fear and what not to worry about:
FEAR GOD
*But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” *(Gen 22:11-12)

Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. (Deu 6:13)

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” (Job 1:8)

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. (Ps 111:10a)

His mercy extends from generation to generation, to those who fear Him. (Lk 1:50)

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him. (Lk 12:5)

• —continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling* (Php 2:12c)

DO NOT WORRY
“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.” (Lk 12:11-12)

*Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest? *(Lk 12:22-26)

DO NOT BE AFRAID
“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more”. (Lk12:4)

“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. (Lk 12:32-33)

Wouldn’t that be more important than whether we worry about what we should eat or wear?

You can achieve nothing by worrying. The fear of hell should deter you from sinning and ultimately free you from sinful habits. Though it is humanly impossible to be vigilant always and ready to face the Judge, it is made possible when we fear God. This fear supplies the wisdom to be vigilant and avoid sin out of fear

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Pitcharan,

Thank you for your post. I will get back to it, but it will probably be later this afternoon at least. I have read it and have some ideas about it.

Would you consider yourself a God fearing man? Being a God fearing man is really huge in Judaism, and I think it’s well accepted by Catholics.

Robert,

Now I can finally give you a straight answer:
“yes.”

In consideration of definitions 4 (noun) and 8 (verb) of the word fear that I just read from dictionary.com, I can answer your question. Using those definitions, I fear God. Why didn’t I look at the dictionary before when I was wondering about the definition of a word? Duhh… :whacky:

So yes, I fear God, but by any of the definitions below I do not fear hell. I used to, but not anymore.

This is based on the definitions of fear, from dictionary.com:
noun
1.
a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid. Synonyms: foreboding, apprehension, consternation, dismay, dread, terror, fright, panic, horror, trepidation, qualm. Antonyms: courage, security, calm, intrepidity.
2.
a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights. Synonyms: phobia, aversion; bête noire, bogy, bogey, bugbear. Antonyms: liking, fondness, penchant, predilection.
3.
concern or anxiety; solicitude: a fear for someone’s safety.
4.
reverential awe, especially toward God: the fear of God. Synonyms: awe, respect, reverence, veneration.
5.
something that causes feelings of dread or apprehension; something a person is afraid of: Cancer is a common fear.
EXPAND
verb (used with object)
7.
to regard with fear; be afraid of. Synonyms: apprehend, dread.
8.
to have reverential awe of. Synonyms: revere, venerate, honor.
9.
to consider or anticipate (something unpleasant) with a feeling of dread or alarm: It’s about to snow again, I fear.
10.
Archaic. to experience fear in (oneself): I fear me he will ne’er forgive us.

Alan

 

[rainbow1]

I interpret “fear of God” as awe or respect of Him. So I have no problems with reading those parts of scripture. Also, as far as punishing children, the only times I found that I needed to punish my young daughter was when she would be in a life-threatening situation, like near a road when she was very tiny and possibly might not understand otherwise. Other than that, my love and affirmation has always worked in raising her. She is a strong student, extremely polite, and respectful to others around her. I literally have no problems with her. We talk alot and love alot. This is exactly how I look at our Gentle Lord…He guides us with His unending Love…it is all in the relationship!

 

[OneSheep]

By and large I’m inclined to agree for most adults, but I’ve personally seen examples to the contrary. When I was in grade school and high school, there were kids who intentionally inflicted harm on others, just to see them react.

at least Pilate knew He was innocent (Matt 27:19) although Pilate maybe couldn’t have saved the OR by then anyway and was looking out for his own skin. The centurion remarked on His divinity (Mark 15:39) but that wasn’t until after Jesus died.

How To Forgive The Bullies of our Childhood

To me, this is where “forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” is so very applicable. Even “bullies” generally do not harm the ones they love, except when the loved one momentarily becomes an Object of Resentment (OR). ( Other exceptions would have to be investigated, but there is always a reason) Did those bullies know what they were doing? If so, they would have known the beauty of who Alan is, they would have had the awe that we have when we look upon God’s creation. It wasn’t there, though, you were just another ball to them.

The people who picked on you and me had other God-given instincts motivating their acts, not the least of which was desire for popularity and dominance. Those children were not in touch with their own value either, nor likely the value of most people around them. We do have an original ignorance. I remember picking on my younger brother a lot. It was a lot of dominance and punitive behavior on my part, with an undeveloped ability to empathize. Sometimes I look back and wonder how I could have been so inconsiderate to my teachers (I was prone to talking too often). But upon reflection, I know that I had an underdeveloped empathy, and my experiences did not include knowing what it is like to be a teacher trying to control a class.

St Augustine struggled with the same type of childhood memories, and never forgave himself.

Pilate may have been “innocent”, but Jesus, to him, was probably just another Jew, putting him firmly in the category of “other”. I think Pilate would have been a little more assertive toward the accusers of an innocent Roman.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Pitcharan, I promise I haven’t forgotten you. I’ve been very tied up, and still am pretty much multitasking, and I want to take some time in writing my response to you…

Meanwhile, a couple quick comments to OneSheep:

(“quick” for me, anyway )

OneSheep, once again I love your whole outlook on forgiveness.

Actually, once in grade school, I specifically remember doing something mean to another kid while we were putting away chairs after a large troop meeting in the school gym. I had nothing against the kid, and I’m not even sure I knew him other than that he was also helping pick up the chairs and was a scout.

You know what it was? I was “curious” to see what it would look like if this particular “accident” had taken place. There was no anger, just curiosity-turned-mischief.

My intent was not to hurt him, but I did something that might have if the scout leader hadn’t seen in coming and literally “jumped in” to stop it – I didn’t get in trouble because I designed it to look like an “accident.” He was not hurt, and nobody knew what was in my mind, and I have never mentioned it to a soul until this day. I never even confessed it because it really never crossed my mind in the last 40 years or so, until just now when I read your post. Specifically:

But upon reflection, I know that I had an underdeveloped empathy, and my experiences did not include knowing what it is like to be a teacher trying to control a class.

Funny you mention that part about not knowing what it was like to be a teacher. I would love to tell you more about when I was a teacher for College Algebra and how that made a better student, but I do want to keep it kind of brief.

How To Forgive The Bullies of our Childhood

I haven’t been much of a moviegoer for the last couple decades, but my wife and I have been to several in the last year – and one was so funny I even rented it a couple times to watch with different people.

The whole movie is about dealing with high school bullies/victims who meet up later in life under rather intimate family circumstances. It’s called “You Again” and I even watched it with my mother, because she likes Betty White.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Will you deny that shepherding requires a ‘carrot and stick’ approach. Will you bring up your child without punishing but only rewarding. You punish as well as reward only out of love. Because you love the child you show the right way through punishments and rewards. Your child avoids doing wrong out of fear of the consequence.

However, if the child has no fear of punishment, then you have a problem-child.

Buried in a previous post, I touched upon this, but I’ll approach from a different angle and I know I’m verbose so like I said is was buried.

In terms of raising children, I agree that a child with no fear of punishment can be a problem child, but only within certain contexts. For example, I’m sitting here next to my mother with no fear whatsoever that she will punish me at any time in the future.

When I was a small child? Yes, occasionally I may have needed a threat or two. I must have, because I did remember getting at least a few spankings, so I probably did need them at the time. But not anymore. I’ve outgrown doing things that would cause her to punish me.

Similarly, it has been decades since I can remember that I have committed a mortal sin – which as I understand is sinning with respect to grave matter with full knowledge and consent. So if it is true that the only reason God would have for sending me to hell is if I die with a mortal sin on my conscience, then really I have no fear of going to hell if I drop over dead right now, or tomorrow afternoon. If I do commit a mortal sin (which if I’m correct about my theology I cannot do without knowing I’ve done it) then yes, I will fear hell because I am at risk of going there until I can willfully make a sincere confession, or perform an act of perfect contrition, or whatever the Church teaches.

When my children were young, I did spank them for doing wrong but the more children I had (total six) the less I spanked. That was because I found that initially they needed it, particularly when doing dangerous things such as running away from me when I called them as if it were a game when they were toddlers or reaching for a hot stove. Actually slapping them for reaching for a hot stove was my way of avoiding “logical consequences” which would have actually “punished” them more.

BTW, I’ve never been particularly impressed by proponents of “logical consequences” because those I’ve heard seem to be promoting “artificial” and/or “illogical” consequences.

Once I got old enough to understand my parents’ authority and wisdom, I no longer obeyed them out of fear of punishment, but out of desire to please them or to model after them.

Here’s one of my most memorable examples. Once when my parents left me alone at my grandmother’s house when I was young, I found a little gadget on the wall in the bathroom and messed with it, not knowing what it was. A little later my grandmother said, “I smell gas.” She found where it was from; the “gadget” I was playing with was actually a gas outlet for a gas heater (I’d never seen nor heard of a gas heater, as I was raised in a house with central heating) and I’d left the gas on.

Granny got very upset and began to yell at me. I gathered that what I had done was wrong, and that it was dangerous to have messed with that gadget. But I didn’t understand why she was yelling at me; this was before I went to grade school and this was not behavior I normally saw in adults. (We lived over 1000 miles away so I only saw Granny’s house every two summers.) I understood that she might be afraid, but the gas was off now and now I knew better so the problem was solved, right? I was trying to understand why she was yelling at me, and I asked in perfect innocence, “why are you so upset? I have longer to live than you, anyway?” My actual reasoning was, and I remember very clearly, that I thought that if anybody should be upset, it would have been the one with “more to lose.”

I don’t remember exactly how she responded, but I don’t think she said much more, until my parents got back. Then Granny told my parents the story of the gas spigot, and then repeated what I has asked her – with a chuckle!!! What??? That made NO sense to me and somehow I felt I was in very serious trouble and was about to get a spanking, but still wasn’t sure about it. My dad told me to come into the bathroom with him.

Dad said, “do you know what this is?” I said, “When I turn this handle it sprays out something that smells bad and is dangerous.” My dad said, “it is dangerous because it can burn or explode. It’s made to go into a heater, which makes a little fire and heats the bathroom when it’s cold.” (This was summer in Houston.) Then he said, “old people know they don’t have much longer to live and that young people will probably live longer, but they don’t like to be reminded of it.”

I said, “oh.”

Then we were done. End of discussion. I told Granny I was sorry for what I said, and she hugged me, and that was the end of it – except in my memory.

That’s why I didn’t fear punishment from my parents. When I did wrong, it was because I didn’t know better, and when I was old enough they could explain such things to me, then they didn’t have to spank me to correct my behavior.

So if I accidentally do something wrong, I don’t see why God would send me to hell for all eternity. As Father Richard mentioned, that would imply that my earthly father is more loving and forgiving than God. And if God is not loving and merciful, and will send me to hell even though I commit no mortal sins, than that doesn’t sound like the God that Jesus is a part of to me.

(continued in next post)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued from previous post)

I am listing down from The Bible, what to fear, what not to fear and what not to worry about:

These things are about fearing God, not hell, and as I recently found out from dictionary.com, one definition of fear is about awe and respect, so I can agree with these “fears.” But that’s not the fear I’m talking about, respecting God. I’m talking about fear and anxiety that I might go to hell.

You can achieve nothing by worrying. The fear of hell should deter you from sinning and ultimately free you from sinful habits. Though it is humanly impossible to be vigilant always and ready to face the Judge, it is made possible when we fear God. This fear supplies the wisdom to be vigilant and avoid sin out of fear

If I feared hell like I used to, it would perhaps deter me from sinning and free me from sinful habits, but it comes with paranoia and anxiety, which is a form of worrying, which we agree achieves nothing. But I don’t fear being sent to hell anymore, but I do fear (as in “respect and awe”) God.

I don’t avoid sin out of fear, because I have no fear of punishment by hell anymore, and I’m not even afraid of purgatory because I love being corrected and through my own personal trials I feel I have been purified and gained yet greater peace. Plus, going to purgatory means eventually I DO spend eternity in heaven, right? Or can you go from purgatory to hell?

So to make a really long story short, I feel that the need to fear hell to do good and avoid wrong is a “stepping stone,” if you will, until you can move into the part of life where you fear (reverence) God but not hell anymore.

An example of when I think you may need to fear hell:

1 Cor 3:1-3
Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ. I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now, for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?

But when one becomes more spiritually mature, we move on from that:

Heb 5:12-14
Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, [and] not solid food. Everyone who lives on milk lacks experience of the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties are trained by practice to discern good and evil.

I hope this helps.

Peace and love,
Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Folks, I have really been slacking in things I need to get done, and I’m afraid between CAF and a couple of other online resources, I have been sinfully absorbed in debating issues that can really wait and don’t have to be dealt with like some higher priority ones. Not to mention I posted a very embarrassing post earlier after becoming very frustrated after some phone calls I had to make. I’m certain now I’m using the computer to escape the “reality” of the “real work” I have to do, and I need to keep my emotions in check.

So I’m going to try very hard not to even log into CAF to check for replies, for as long as possible. Seriously, I should stay out until at least November 21, but I probably won’t.

Just please don’t expect any more responses from me for a while. If you send me PM’s, I’ll come here and read them because I get email notifications of them. My hope is that I can keep myself from posting, because I take entirely too long to post, and too often.

Until I get back (which I hope isn’t too soon) I bid you all peace and love.

Alan

 

[punisherthunder]

Maybe I’m some sort of spiritual sociopath, but I do not fear going to hell. Not at all. Nada. Zip.

I see so many threads about people who seem to live in constant fear of going to hell if they do this or that, or whether they have committed a mortal sin by thinking this or that and should they abstain from Communion or what if they die before they make it to confession, I feel terribly for them.

You know why? Because I feel like I am at perfect peace with God. Just as with my own parents, I don’t do things to offend them, but it is because I want to do what is right and good by them – not because I’m afraid they’ll punish me. When I was little I did get an occasional spanking, but that’s not why I avoided doing wrong. I avoided doing wrong because I wanted to be good, and when I was little, “good” was defined by what my parents said was good.

Oh, it’s true I’ve had my day where I delighted in wrong. But those days are past.

I even have a rough time saying the act of contrition, “because I dread the loss of heaven and the fear of hell” or whatever, and then “but MOST of all because You are all good and deserving of all my love.” Seems to me it’s almost backwards. Why not make the most important point first? It’s like dread and fear are the first things we should be thinking about.

Honestly, if I understand my Church teachings right, and I’m certainly not a theologian, one cannot just “accidentally” mortally sin anyway. It has to be calculated and intentional.

What did Jesus say when he appeared to a room full of scared people? “Fear not.” What did angels say when the appeared to people? “fear not”

So why fear?

So am I perfect? no.

Do I do wrong things, or things I later regret? Yes, occasionally.

Do I claim to totally agree with 100% of Church teachings? No, not if all I’ve been told the Church teaches are actually what she teaches.

But does that bother me? Yes and no. I try to learn, and sometimes what doesn’t make sense now makes sense later, but some things just don’t seem right – can’t come up with a good example right at the moment but if I hear one I’ll call it, and I’m not ashamed to question things.

Do I mortally sin? I don’t know. I don’t try to or want to, so maybe I don’t – at least not for a few decades since I was on my “wild” binge away from the church.

Do I look forward to heaven? Absolutely. In fact, even in difficult times (and I am having one of them now – nothing like some people’s but for me it’s a bit of a challenge) I feel so much peace – unconditional peace – in my heart, I can’t even imagine what it must be like in heaven. :heaven:

But do I fear going to hell? No. I do my best, and if that isn’t good enough and God sends me to hell, then at least I can take comfort in knowing that He sent His own Son there, too – at least for a while.

If this is blasphemous, I’m sorry, but it isn’t meant to be. I just feel so bad for people who live in constant spiritual fear and turmoil – and frankly the way I was brought up in Catholicism I used to lie awake in bed, fearing whether the devil was tempting me or whether I would go to hell – so I perfectly understand how so many people can be that way, fearing hell so much that they can’t live in peace on this earth. Not anymore, though. Honestly, it seemed that the God some of my grade school teachers tried to show me was an ogre, just waiting for us dear little children to mess up so He could punish us forever. I just don’t believe that anymore.

I think Jesus came to bring us true, unconditional, everlasting peace – not to increase our fear of hell or to make us paranoid of stepping on a crack at any given moment and losing our salvation. And I’d like to think I know how to receive that gift. And it is a gift, not something I’ve earned – but have always tried to be open to. I feel like I have received peace and joy and some of the other fruit of the spirit, even if through no merit (though much seeking) of my own.

Alan

To not fear hell, is to not fear the Devil. This is when he attacks you. When you are at your weakest.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Until I get back (which I hope isn’t too soon) I bid you all peace and love.

Well, I guess “isn’t too soon” didn’t turn out to be “after Nov 21.” I did get some sleep last night, though, and I feel better. I think I will be checking in here because I enjoy it and I learn from it, but I just can’t spend as much time not just here and other online places as I was.

This morning when I woke up it became clear to me what was so wrong with me yesterday evening. In addition to the usual things that are annoying, I had the SINGLE MOST frustrating phone call I remember ever having, yesterday afternoon, with a billing clerk from a company called "Nephrology Associates … " (That does not identify the company, because Google shows many companies with that name.) I was numb after that phone call, but didn’t realize until this morning (reviewing a facebook chat where I was telling a friend about it) just how much it got to me.

Maybe I’ll rant more about it in the water cooler thread or somewhere in more detail, but the summary is that I got this bill from them with a four-page enclosure with pink highlighter on the part that said they were missing one piece of information (a 10-digit number) and on the bill was handwritten what extension to call. Piece of cake, right? I Wrong. I’m guessing it took more than an hour to get them that information, and it wasn’t because I was on hold. It was because this clerk was pathologically uncooperative. It even took a phone call to an insurance company whom she claimed sent me a letter asking for information I hadn’t provided (they had not sent me such a letter – turns out they had sent NA a letter asking for information THEY hadn’t provided) and then a three way call, and then finally when the three of us determined that all NA needed was the 10-digit number I was sitting there looking at the whole time and the insurance company dropped off the conference call, it took almost another 10 minutes to give her that information – 9:45 to debate about it and 15 seconds to actually convey the information. Like I said, that’s just the quick summary.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I spent a year one time negotiating an intellectual property exchange agreement between two major companies, involving four groups of seemingly paranoid and uncooperative lawyers, and several managers on each side, and that experience did not touch this phone call.

I was on a jury on a 3 1/2 week civil trial where the only material question we had to answer was, “did the victim suffer” before he was killed. We went through day after day examining a truck driver’s logbooks and one witness in particular was so uncooperative that it took maybe 8 hours to get five minutes of information from him. Not even close.

President Clinton had nothing on this woman.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled thread. I did take a peek this morning and saw a one-sentence reply that I just couldn’t make myself leave alone, so I guess I’m back.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

To not fear hell, is to not fear the Devil. This is when he attacks you. When you are at your weakest.

I think I can relate to what you say, but I can’t agree with its connotations.

“To fear hell, is to not fear the devil.” I’m OK with that statement.

“He attacks you when you are at your weakest.” I’m OK with that statement, as paraphrased.

I can even agree with:

“If you are complacent about something or in denial about your fears, that can put you at a weak point.”

But I can’t agree that when you “fear the devil” you are necessarily stronger than when you “do not fear the devil”

I use the word “necessarily” because as we’ve discussed earlier in this thread, there may initially be a reason to fear the devil – plus the above disclaimer about being complacent or in denial. But I think that the more we follow the teachings of Jesus, the more we trust in the redemptive power of the cross, the more confidence we get that Jesus has truly conquered the devil. Through Jesus, we do not have to fight that fight because Jesus has already won the battle for us.

1 John 4:4
You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

And yes, I did not use capital ‘D’ on purpose, because I mean him no respect, nor any pretense thereof. Sometimes I capitalize “Satan” because it’s a name and it’s grammatically correct.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

To everybody, thank you for participation in this thread.

There are responsibilities I’ve been putting off and putting off, and now there is a huge amount of work to be done and only a week to do it.

I really, really need to quit coming here because I love having these discussions and it’s too attractive to me; I just have to stop and focus.

Maybe after Nov 21 I’ll be back, but if I’m back before that, then I’m either seriously in need of a break, or more likely putting off things I Really Need to Do.

So please go ahead and discuss among yourselves, but do not expect a reply from me because frankly, under my circumstances, I really need to get off CAF (since I can’t seem to limit myself to just a few minutes at a time) and focus on my task at hand … or it would honestly be a sin against a number of people including myself.

Thanks again, and bye for now.

http://bestsmileys.com/waving/2.gif

Alan

 

[Pitcharan]

To everybody, thank you for participation in this thread.
…
Thanks again, and bye for now.

http://bestsmileys.com/waving/2.gif

Alan

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P67.HTM

III. The Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit

1830 The moral life of Christians is sustained by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.110

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.111
…
…
From the Baltimore Catechism
Q. 700. Why do we receive the gift of Fear of the Lord?
A. We receive the gift of Fear of the Lord (Awe and Wonder of the Lord) to fill us with a dread of sin.
…