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BibleSteve
Guest
Can you provide a Scripture to support this belief of yours? I’d like to read the specifics where the Bible explains this “succession” and “Pope”.
I don't get how JW's believe Charles Taze Russell had any legitimate authority for his teachings.
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BibleSteve
Guest
No, to the contrary, after reading the Bible for myself many times and studying the views of the Catholics, Protestants, and another dozen religions I could make an informed decision which group was closest to Bible truth.
Frankly, Jehovah’s Witnesses rarely talk or think about Russell. That’s mainly the focus of conversation of JW-critics looking for something to complain about.
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BibleSteve
Guest
May I test this statement of yours politely without offending anyone?
“The One True church wrote the book”. I assume you believe the Catholic Church is responsible for writing the Bible?
po18guy
Well-known member
I dislike relying upon links, but the references are too numerous for a post. Here is one readable listing: scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
This page also has arguments for their inclusion and refutation of common challenges to their canonicity: st-takla.org/pub_Deuterocanon/Deuterocanon-Apocrypha_El-Asfar_El-Kanoneya_El-Tanya__0-index.html
Just some thoughts on scripture. Since Christ quoted from many, but not all of the Protestant OT canon, who’s to say those books from which He did not quote are in fact canonical?
What trips up many amateur scholars about the Catholic Church is that it does not formally define a teaching until the threat of heresy arises. Literally, the church’s hand is forced. Once there is a date of definition, many misconstrue that as the inception. Big difference.
Christ’s peace.
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DannyHaszard
Guest
Charitable Explanation of Jehovah’s Witnesses Beliefs
Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs and who are they?
The Watchtower is big money, being one of the top 40 New York City Corporations making nearly one billion dollars a year. That’s just from one of their many corporations.
Unlike in the case of Christians who are persecuted in other lands for talking about Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses are largely persecuted for following the teachings begun during the second presidency of the Watchtower, when Joseph F. Rutherford took over in a corporate flap and began changing doctrines quickly in the Watchtower belief system. He claimed that angels directly conveyed truth to some of those in leadership. He coined the name Jehovah’s Witnesses to make them stand out from being witnesses of Jesus, a typical evangelical expression (and a Biblical one).
Rutherford dumped holidays, birthdays and the 1874 date for the invisible return on Christ, and **invented an earthly class of Witnesses, since only 144,000 can go to heaven **in their teaching. The rest, meaning all 99.9% of Witnesses still alive, will live forever on a cleansed earth, under the rule of the Watchtower leaders in heaven, who will keep them in line by local elders known as ‘Princes’.
If you have been witnessed to by Jehovah’s Witnesses and you reject their message, you will likely die shortly at Armageddon with all the other non-Witnesses, since theirs is the only true religion, and (if they can live up to all the rules) they are the only ones to inhabit this new earth. If you believe Witnesses seem rigid now, any non-conformist during the future cleansed earth will be directly destroyed by Jehovah. Even now a Witness will be disfellowshipped for any one of many gaffs, such as smoking, taking a blood transfusion, or even voting.
To even vocally question the teachings of the Watchtower will result in complete cutting off, with family and friends usually being forbidden to talk to them. The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world, in a time when Orwellian societies are nearly obsolete.
By their own Yearbook accounts,Witnesses are shrinking in number in many Western countries as of the last few years, as the internet facilitates the spread of information (much of it critical of the Witnesses). Witnesses are cautioned against creating JW-related websites, largely to prevent their members from discovering the history and dirty laundry of this organization on other websites. (There are literally hundreds of former members pages in many languages.)
The Watchtower strives hard to control the flow of information to the individual Witness, and prefers that all instruction come through the magazines they carry door-to-door. Without this form of control, even as they themselves admit, they would believe just the same as other Bible believers.
My hope is that there will be a day in each of their lives when the Watchtower magazine is no longer needed, and they can go to college, vote for office, and contribute money and time to other, more vital causes in their community. More than likely they will then cease to be persecuted, except in a few societies more authoritarian than their own.
Sincerely,
Danny Haszard
Reference
freeminds.org
Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs and who are they?
The Watchtower is big money, being one of the top 40 New York City Corporations making nearly one billion dollars a year. That’s just from one of their many corporations.
Unlike in the case of Christians who are persecuted in other lands for talking about Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses are largely persecuted for following the teachings begun during the second presidency of the Watchtower, when Joseph F. Rutherford took over in a corporate flap and began changing doctrines quickly in the Watchtower belief system. He claimed that angels directly conveyed truth to some of those in leadership. He coined the name Jehovah’s Witnesses to make them stand out from being witnesses of Jesus, a typical evangelical expression (and a Biblical one).
Rutherford dumped holidays, birthdays and the 1874 date for the invisible return on Christ, and **invented an earthly class of Witnesses, since only 144,000 can go to heaven **in their teaching. The rest, meaning all 99.9% of Witnesses still alive, will live forever on a cleansed earth, under the rule of the Watchtower leaders in heaven, who will keep them in line by local elders known as ‘Princes’.
If you have been witnessed to by Jehovah’s Witnesses and you reject their message, you will likely die shortly at Armageddon with all the other non-Witnesses, since theirs is the only true religion, and (if they can live up to all the rules) they are the only ones to inhabit this new earth. If you believe Witnesses seem rigid now, any non-conformist during the future cleansed earth will be directly destroyed by Jehovah. Even now a Witness will be disfellowshipped for any one of many gaffs, such as smoking, taking a blood transfusion, or even voting.
To even vocally question the teachings of the Watchtower will result in complete cutting off, with family and friends usually being forbidden to talk to them. The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world, in a time when Orwellian societies are nearly obsolete.
By their own Yearbook accounts,Witnesses are shrinking in number in many Western countries as of the last few years, as the internet facilitates the spread of information (much of it critical of the Witnesses). Witnesses are cautioned against creating JW-related websites, largely to prevent their members from discovering the history and dirty laundry of this organization on other websites. (There are literally hundreds of former members pages in many languages.)
The Watchtower strives hard to control the flow of information to the individual Witness, and prefers that all instruction come through the magazines they carry door-to-door. Without this form of control, even as they themselves admit, they would believe just the same as other Bible believers.
My hope is that there will be a day in each of their lives when the Watchtower magazine is no longer needed, and they can go to college, vote for office, and contribute money and time to other, more vital causes in their community. More than likely they will then cease to be persecuted, except in a few societies more authoritarian than their own.
Sincerely,
Danny Haszard
Reference
freeminds.org
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BibleSteve
Guest
Danny Hazard is the master anti-JW copy/paste expert. Anywhere, anytime there is any mention of Jehovah’s Witnesses on the Internet, he is usually the very first person to paste his anti-JW message into the comments section. He is a very dedicated critic… absolutely obsessed…
po18guy
Well-known member
This is not in scripture, as Catholics reject sola scriptura. The bible is very important to us, but it was never intended to be the sole rule of faith, and for us, it is not. To rely on the bible means you have no authority to teach on abortion, because that is not specifically mentioned in scripture. So it is with many moral issues. All Protestant denominations were against contraception, just like the Catholic church, until the Anglicans folded in the 1930s. The rest followed when the floodgates were opened. One church remained (two if you want to separate the nominally identical Eastern Orthodox.
It is in the Traditions handed to the Apostles, such as Paul, and which they, in turn handed on in the Jewish tradition. Jesus gave Peter the immense power to bind and loose in Matthew 16, and Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, made successors as Christ’s command to make disciples of all nations could not be reached in the Apostle’s lifetimes - many were martyred. How to continue the faith? Apostolic succession. An unbroken line of praying hands laid on successors, just as WTBTS has its successors.
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BibleSteve
Guest
I think you have proposed a very interesting discussion. I propose we start a new thread on this and I look forward to an interesting exchange.
Steve
po18guy
Well-known member
Yes, in its infancy. As the bible is being interpreted by your organization, so it was in the beginning. Much lay in the future to be revealed. By the death of John the Apostle, public revelation was complete. The arguments began and heresies were addressed until the early church was forced to canonize scripture. Again, as at Trent, this was to combat growing heresies. I, for one, am actually glad the heresies arose, as we have the beautiful book with us today.
po18guy
Well-known member
Ah, but the NWT is a derivation of the Lutheran bible, which is a derivation of Catholic Scripture. It lacks scripture contained in the original CC bible, and contains beliefs not seen in either of its ancestors. It is this that I question.
I believe this. There is little reason to recall Russell in this age, as the organization is up and running and has been for some time.
po18guy
Well-known member
My one question: Do you love Jesus enough to follow Him wherever he leads you?
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BibleSteve
Guest
So you claim:
“Peter and the eleven laid hands on and made successors. When Peter was crucified, the Apostolic authority was handed on. The Pope is Peter’s successor and has his authority.”
but can provide no specific independant evidence other than what Catholic Church leaders have told you? By telling you this is the case, they are elevated into a high and important position.
What specific independant evidence can I review that indicates Jesus wanted to have a series of Popes?
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BibleSteve
Guest
I’ve always been confused about the claim the Catholic Church wrote the Bible. Perhaps you can clarify this for me.
For example, by the time Malachi penned his prophecy God’s Word, the Bible, had grown to at 39 books. These 39 books constituted the Scriptures that Jesus and his disciples used and which they encouraged others to study.
As far as I understand, the Catholic Church didn’t write any of these, right?
But, how about the other books?
With the writing of the accounts of Jesus’ life by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the letters of Paul, Peter, James, Jude, and John and the Acts of the apostles and Revelation, God’s Word grew to 66 books.
As these were written down and circulated among the early Christians they became recognized as part of the Bible. (2*Pet. 3:15, 16) The last of these writings, John’s three letters and his Gospel, were completed about A.D. 98.
Shortly thereafter began the compiling of these writings, and there is evidence to indicate that as early as A.D. 170 the canon or catalogue of the Bible we have today was recognized. Both Origen and Eusebius list these same books, and of ten early catalogues extant six likewise give the same list as is recognized today, three others omitting Revelation and one omitting both Hebrews and Revelation.
In view of this, which show that the canon of the Bible was settled among the Christians in the second and early third centuries after Christ, can the Catholic Church claim to have made the Bible, simply because some 150 to 200 years later her Council of Carthage announced what writings she considered canonical?
So you can see, I’m confused about your claim that The Catholic Church wrote the book. How exact did she “write the book”?
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BibleSteve
Guest
Yes, of course. And how would answer the same question?
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BibleSteve
Guest
If you’d like to question any specific book, please let me know. Having Jesus specifically quote from a book is a VERY strong sign of it’s inspiration, but certainly not the only way to decide this.
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BibleSteve
Guest
I am very familiar with the NWT as well as many other translations. What specific reason do you have for thinkng the NWT is a “derivation” of the Lutheran Bible?
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DannyHaszard
Guest
THANK YOU!
I am just getting warmed up have made over 250,000 pages & links in 51/2 years of counter-cult ministry.
As far as *copy/paste goes *how many ways can I elaborate that your 1914 CORE CREED doctrine on which the entire doctrinal superstructure is based is false?
I am a 3rd generation born 1957 JW the Watchtower took everything from me and as soon as they repay my money that they stole I will go away.
po18guy
Well-known member
Pope is the modern name. Benedict XVI is officially the Bishop of Rome. There are several references to the early bishops in scripture. Somehow, the faith had to be carried on. Christ, in Matthew 16:18. renamed Simon (a reed that sways) bar Jonah into Peter/Cephas/Kepha, the rock that is the foundation of His church. He gave the keys to heaven to him, and the power to bind and loose. Peter used that power to anoint bishops. They were the logical, and only viable successors to ensure that the faith continued and spread to the ends of the earth. The entire earth, even the moon, is covered by a parish! You can attend a Catholic Church anywhere int he world and follow the mass. Thus, it was known in the first century as the universal (catholic) church of Christ.
Look at it this way: At WTBTS, is there a president, a head, a Chief Officer? Or do they just post the mission statement on the wall and have each individual read it and then do what they think is best? Naturally, a leader is needed. Peter was tested numerous times, first denying Christ three times, then affirming him three times. Peter is mentioned almost 200 times in the NT. The next closest is John, with less than 30 mentions. And Christ gave His own mother to John! Clearly, Peter was the “go to” man in the early church.
po18guy
Well-known member
I answered it on April 18th, 1987. I was baptized, confirmed in the faith, and received the Blessed Sacrament on that day. It was a 35 year journey. What has been revealed to me since has only solidified me. I trust my eternal soul completely here. That is not an idle or capricious statement. I make it absolutely believing that I will spend eternity, either adoring God, or in the flames of torment. Praise God. Amen, Alleluia!
po18guy
Well-known member
“Writing” is a misnomer. The OT books were written by their respective Hebrew and pre-Hebrew authors and scrupulously maintained. At Christ’s advent, He taught using the Jewish oral tradition, as mentioned specifically by Paul. Christ founded a church, rather than a bible, and gave it all authority on earth. He taught live, so that questions could be answered and error in his disciples could be corrected. Scripture alone does not allow this. After his ascension, the Apostles spread the Gospel message, using letters as needed, but relying mainly on the oral tradition they were taught by Christ. As they aged and began to pass away, they realized that the teachings, to the best of their abilities, needed to be written. The early church, which was called “catholic” (universal) in the first or very early second century, maintained the letters and the Gospels as part of the deposit of faith, with Sacred Tradition being the foundation of the scriptures.
Many heresies arose, leading to various doctrines being officially defined, in defense of the faith. As this progressed, the catholic church fathers continually examined the writings and knew that some were inspired and some were not. As Paul admonished, they “tested everything and retained what was good” The scriptures were maintained until such time as it had to be formally canonized to control the spread of heresies as well as to exclude the apocryphal writings.
73 books were canonized, until Luther began his “revision”, by his own authority. The small “c” catholic church thus did the work of some writing, all of the collecting and subsequent canonization of Sacred Scripture. It was the now fifteen centuries old Catholic Church which Luther became a priest in, and from which he separated, taking scripture along with him. These were highly contentious times, as might be expected. It is apparent that Luther, once separated from the universal church, needed to justify and maintain that separation, or face the humility of returning. He decided to justify altering the canon of scripture. This was not a pure motive. He consulted with the leaders of Judaism, who had altered their canon in response to the “threat” of Christianity. They eliminated books of their testament, so Luther did, as well. Why he would consult Jewish authorities who denied Christ as the messiah is beyond me. Thus was born the incomplete canon of scripture, which exists today outside of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.
Have I missed or messed up here? Probably. But the basics are there if you have never looked into Catholic history. It doesn’t bother me one bit about historical abuses in the church. They are lamentable and those responsible have paid, or are paying. What matters is the deposit of faith, the truth that she teaches. On that I place my entire faith.
Christ’s peace.
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