I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[1beleevr]

Christ established a Church. He chose and appointed men over that Church. With their authority, they appointed more men of the Church. Men of the Church wrote the scriptures. Men of the Church gave the interpretation of what they had written to those they had appointed. Those that received the scriptures, passed the scriptures and interpretation to those they appointed, and on and on. That’s how Apostolic succession works. If they had not preserved the scriptures through the centuries, you wouldn’t have a New Testament today. So, the Church has the interpretation. It isn’t the Pope alone who interprets scriptures.

Acts 2:38 tells people they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It does not say, you will receive an authority in the Church. Neither Christ, or the Apostles, did ‘blanket’ appointments. Christ chose men and appointed them. They appointed others. The others appointed more…again, this is Apostolic succession.

It seems people would rather argue that ALL have authority, yet there are no scriptures to support that view. Where in scriptures did anyone ‘appoint themself’? It’s that simple.

It is not now, nor has it ever been about “appointing oneself!” Do you mean to tell me that you cannot read scripture and figure out what it means,; without a priest’s help? What does this verse mean to you: “Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted in all nations.” And we have heard about apostolic succession ad nauseum If the men who supposedly succeeded the apostles, are the only ones who can interpret scripture than why do the rest of us Christians bother reading our Bibles? Quit trying to keep the Bible all to yourself!

 

[1beleevr]

It was understandable that he had a certain resentment, and I expressed my sorrow for that situation, but his agenda was to take it out on Catholicism and anyone that is Catholic. If you read back, I warned him that his posts were borderline infractions and suggested he read the forum rules.

When the inmates take it out on the officers, is it allowed to continue?

Not at that moment, the inmate(s) are stopped! But it happens on nearly a daily basis; an officer or officers are attacked and sometimes killed, because an inmate had his parole denied or revoked! In Jimmy H’s situation, it is apparent that there is a lot of anger and resentment towards the catholic church! Some people, even Christians sometimes take a long time to forgive, or move past a situation!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It is not now, nor has it ever been about “appointing oneself!” Do you mean to tell me that you cannot read scripture and figure out what it means,; without a priest’s help? What does this verse mean to you: “Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted in all nations.” And we have heard about apostolic succession ad nauseum If the men who supposedly succeeded the apostles, are the only ones who can interpret scripture than why do the rest of us Christians bother reading our Bibles? Quit trying to keep the Bible all to yourself!

Show me one example of someone being appointed without it coming through one that was already appointed…

Don’t use lines like, ‘Do you mean to tell me that you cannot read scriptures and figure out what it means?’ It’s really bad form. Don’t you know I feel the same way towards your interpretation.

If you don’t like the Apostolic succession ad nauseum…you have two choices. 1.) Don’t enter into discussions with Catholics concerning the authoritative Church. 2.) Show us the scriptures where someone was ordained without it coming through the authority of someone in His Church.

Another, ‘Quit trying to keep the Bible all to yourself!’ Oh wow, I’ve been straightened out now, because someone’s private interpretation disagrees with mine…only mine is supported by scriptures and yours is not supported because of the lack of scriptures.

Since you’ve decided to use ad hominems, it speaks loudly for what it is. You have no scriptures to support your view that anyone, anywhere, anytime can appoint themself to a position within His Church. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not at that moment, the inmate(s) are stopped! But it happens on nearly a daily basis; an officer or officers are attacked and sometimes killed, because an inmate had his parole denied or revoked! In Jimmy H’s situation, it is apparent that there is a lot of anger and resentment towards the catholic church! Some people, even Christians sometimes take a long time to forgive, or move past a situation!

So then, we should let someone like Jimmy say whatever he wants and you should let the inmates do whatever they want, as long as it blows off steam? Think about it. The rules serve a purpose.

 

[1beleevr]

So then, we should let someone like Jimmy say whatever he wants and you should let the inmates do whatever they want, as long as it blows off steam? Think about it. The rules serve a purpose.

I don’t know, you tell me. In our prison, we are outnumbered about 10 to 1! Yes, we have guns, but the administration has tightened the shooting policy, to where even if the officer shooting, believes that deadly force was warranted, it is like he/she is on trial! And, because of where I work, I understand the need for rules and structure; but if Jimmy H’s stories are true, then he feels like he has the right to vent against the catholic church. I am not agreeing with him, just pointing out how some people handle situations like this! Let me ask you this, and please answer honestly: If a catholic poster badmouthed any other reliegion, or Christian, would they be sanctioned, or is that allowed?

 

[PeaceSerenity]

If a catholic poster badmouthed any other reliegion, or Christian, would they be sanctioned, or is that allowed?

It’s not nice to badmouth any religion, even if you have cause to dislike some people in that religion, because stereotypes are hurtful. That’s why we don’t say every Muslim person is a terrorist. We should be especially careful on these forums where people come to seek advice.

 

[1beleevr]

Show me one example of someone being appointed without it coming through one that was already appointed…

Don’t use lines like, ‘Do you mean to tell me that you cannot read scriptures and figure out what it means?’ It’s really bad form. Don’t you know I feel the same way towards your interpretation.

If you don’t like the Apostolic succession ad nauseum…you have two choices. 1.) Don’t enter into discussions with Catholics concerning the authoritative Church. 2.) Show us the scriptures where someone was ordained without it coming through the authority of someone in His Church.

Another, ‘Quit trying to keep the Bible all to yourself!’ Oh wow, I’ve been straightened out now, because someone’s private interpretation disagrees with mine…only mine is supported by scriptures and yours is not supported because of the lack of scriptures.

Since you’ve decided to use ad hominems, it speaks loudly for what it is. You have no scriptures to support your view that anyone, anywhere, anytime can appoint themself to a position within His Church. We can agree to disagree.

W-O-W! You are really hung up on people “appointing” themselves, just because they understand scripture I never said that I appointed myself; what I said was, slowly and in English, is that by the grace of God, with the Holy Spirit’s guidance, I can understand what I read If there is something that I’m not real sure of, I consult with my pastor. The reason I said,“Quit trying to keep the BIble all to yourselves,” is because you make it sound like, if you are not catholic, you cannot interpret what you have just read Like John 20:20-23, you guys say it give gives priests authority to forgive sins in confession! Might as well get used to bad form, because your position suggests just that; that we cannot read scripture and figure out what it means! And I know that Jews wrote most if not all of the Old Testament, but please read this verse, and without saying,"You must read it in the context in which it was written(PLEASE!!), tell me what it means to you; what you see in it-2Samuel 14:14.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t know, you tell me. In our prison, we are outnumbered about 10 to 1! Yes, we have guns, but the administration has tightened the shooting policy, to where even if the officer shooting, believes that deadly force was warranted, it is like he/she is on trial! And, because of where I work, I understand the need for rules and structure; but if Jimmy H’s stories are true, then he feels like he has the right to vent against the catholic church. I am not agreeing with him, just pointing out how some people handle situations like this! Let me ask you this, and please answer honestly: If a catholic poster badmouthed any other reliegion, or Christian, would they be sanctioned, or is that allowed?

I used to be a ‘hack’, ‘screw’, ‘boss’…guard in a prison. Now, I’m an EMT and enjoy it much more, except when we get called to the local prison. lol

I don’t like anyone receiving venomous attacks, and yes, I think it is against the rules to disrespect anyone’s faith. If you like the ‘attacks’ CARM is the place to be. They allow anything to be said against Catholics. If you complain to the moderators, they join in on the attacks.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

W-O-W! You are really hung up on people “appointing” themselves, just because they understand scripture I never said that I appointed myself; what I said was, slowly and in English, is that by the grace of God, with the Holy Spirit’s guidance, I can understand what I read If there is something that I’m not real sure of, I consult with my pastor. The reason I said,“Quit trying to keep the BIble all to yourselves,” is because you make it sound like, if you are not catholic, you cannot interpret what you have just read Like John 20:20-23, you guys say it give gives priests authority to forgive sins in confession! Might as well get used to bad form, because your position suggests just that; that we cannot read scripture and figure out what it means! And I know that Jews wrote most if not all of the Old Testament, but please read this verse, and without saying,"You must read it in the context in which it was written(PLEASE!!), tell me what it means to you; what you see in it-2Samuel 14:14.

How many Protestant Churches are there started by someone who ‘feels’ the authority?

Scripture interpretation requires a Church ‘doctor’ (teacher).

Hey, when I was Protestant, I had many questions, that I was told not to worry about that. What kind of answer is that?. Through research, I found out why. The Bible is a Catholic book and lots easier to understand once you start reading it in light of the traditions of the living Church.

 

[1beleevr]

It’s not nice to badmouth any religion, even if you have cause to dislike some people in that religion, because stereotypes are hurtful. That’s why we don’t say every Muslim person is a terrorist. We should be especially careful on these forums where people come to seek advice.

I agree, wholeheartedly; but the problem is not always badmouthing, although there are those who unabashedly profane and lash out against each other’s religious beliefs(on both sides, in some cases). And I totally understand the need for rules, in order to prevent chaos. However, the rules should be applied evenly, and noncatholics, shoul also enjoy the respect from catholics, that they themselves desire from us! Dividing the family of God, is not good for any of us, but it happens all the time. It is perfectly okay to disagree with someone; but there are some who believe that when you disagree, you are anti-whatever. And yes, we should be very careful what we say; we never know how it’s going to be interpreted!

 

[1beleevr]

How many Protestant Churches are there started by someone who ‘feels’ the authority?

Scripture interpretation requires a Church ‘doctor’ (teacher).

Hey, when I was Protestant, I had many questions, that I was told not to worry about that. What kind of answer is that?. Through research, I found out why. The Bible is a Catholic book and lots easier to understand once you start reading it in light of the traditions of the living Church.

Good question; too many probably! I have never had a problem getting an answer to my questions. Have you read that verse yet? 2Samuel 14:14?

 

[1beleevr]

I used to be a ‘hack’, ‘screw’, ‘boss’…guard in a prison. Now, I’m an EMT and enjoy it much more, except when we get called to the local prison. lol

I don’t like anyone receiving venomous attacks, and yes, I think it is against the rules to disrespect anyone’s faith. If you like the ‘attacks’ CARM is the place to be. They allow anything to be said against Catholics. If you complain to the moderators, they join in on the attacks.

I have been doing it for 21 years now, and have had a great career. By the grace of God, I have never been assaulted, and have been able to maintain my composure, and deal with the inmates fairly, and consistently. I am in a place where I have no contact with inmates, pointing towards retirement in two years. I will not visit CARM, because I do not enjoy putting anyone down. There’s no future in it!

 

[guanophore]

God did not give us the Bible, so that only a few could understand it.

This is certainly true. He also did not give it to be used apart from the Church He founded, and the Teaching of the Apostles He trained and gave teaching authority.

 

[guanophore]

 The Bible is  reliable because of its **source**. Scripture is reliable  because God is reliable.

Yes but the fallible interpretations that are made by our limited minds are about as numerous as belly buttons.

The word “interpretation” means unloosing, solving or explanation. Metaphorically, it means “interpretation.” The word can mean the conveying or uttering of a divine proclamation and therefore carries the idea of “produce” or “bring forth.” Scripture does not come from the human author’s explanation of things. It is not a concoction of their own thinking.

One must distinguish between the scripture itself, which is of God, and the person understanding it, which may not. Or, even a person who desires to hear God, as most of us do when reading, can have our limited knowledge and experiences interfere with the meaning He intends.

This passage is not talking about the  interpretation of the Bible but the origin of the Bible. God used human  authors to write the Bible but it does not teach their human ideas.

Yes, I agree. But Peter is using it in reference to those who misunderstand the Scriptures. He is making the point that the reader needs to understand what is written by the same Source of revelation from which it is written.

Human authors of Scripture did not put their own spin on Scriptures. The Bible is not man’s ideas about God.“You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me” (John 5:39).
The word “any” means “no” — not even one. Every single Scripture came from God and not men. No Scripture springs from the mind of the human author. No single passage of Scripture stands by itself. It must be understood in its context.

How do you account for the times the Apostle says that he is writing of himself, and not “from the Lord”?

The Bible also needs to be understood as a **whole**. We  must understand doctrine in light of all of Scripture’s teaching. We  call this “theology.” We cannot take passages we do not like and ignore  them. We must include the entire body of truth from God to form a proper  theology. This will deliver us from error.

I agree that scripture must be understood as a whole, but theology does not emanate from Scripture. You conclusion is wrong, however. Even trying to understand scripture as a whole will not deliver us from error. Only the HS can do that.

Every passage of Scripture has **one** interpretation  but many applications. If we give the idea that an application is an  interpretation, we misrepresent what God says.

Where does it say THAT in the Bible!!!

Funny how people use passage like these and say we cannot interpret Scriptures by ourselves in any circumstances, and that we should blindly obey the Church. Obviously, this is not what the Bereans did. They were more noble because they didn’t blindly accept what they have been taught, but searched the Scriptures to see if it was true. According to some, we shouldn’t do that, and we should blindly accept the Church’s teachings. Did I say something wrong?

I have never heard anyone say that. The Catholic Church encourages us to read and interpret the Bible by ourselves in EVERY circumstance. I have also never heard any Catholic here on CAF or seen any Church teaching that says we should “blindly obey”. This, in fact, would be a practical impossibility, since the light of Christ resides in the Church, we cannot be blind so long as we obey her.

What the Bereans did is what many refuse to do today. Instead of receiving the apostolic message with eagerness from those to whom it was given to preach, they close up their ears and minds to the Apostolci succession and seek to find the faith instead by extracting it from the pages of the Scripture. The Holy Scripture was never meant to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it.

Yes, your whole last paragraph is wrong.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The people in Berea searched the Scriptures to confirm the preaching. I tend to go along with that and search the Scriptures. God did not give us the Bible, so that only a few could understand it.

Read Nehemiah 8. God gave them the Old Testament, yet the priests He gave them had to explain the scriptures and cause the people to understand.

“Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” Acts 17:11

The people in Berea interpreted the Scriptures for themselves with the help of the Holy Spirit.
If it hadn’t been impossible to interpret the Scriptures, why else would Jesus chastize the Sadduzees?

Paul, preached the interpretation with authority, then the Bereans searched the scriptures and believed. They understood the scriptures, only after Paul had preached to them.

Christ chastized those who ‘misinterpreted’ scriptures.

Peter’s declaration is clear as well…

“But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,” 2 Peter 1:20

No one should explain scriptures through one’s own interpretation.

Peter also clearly declared:

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

“Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”

Paul instructing Timothy on handling the word of truth, the spoken word of truth. Let’s add the verse prior to show what Paul’s talking about.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in mind, charging them before the Lord. Contend not in words: for it is to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

God’s Holy Spirit does the interpreting:

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” John 14:26

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” John 16:13
​

Words spoken ONLY to the Apostles to give them confidence in their ministry.

“which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.” 1 Corinthians 2:13

Emphasis is mine. Paul is instructing the authoritative men appointed over the Church of Corinthians.

Why should we memorize Scripture if we can’t interpret it?

“

Your word I have treasured in my heart, that I may not sin against You.” Psalm 119:11

“Keep my commandments and live, and my teaching as the apple of your eye. Bind them on your fingers; Write them on the tablet of your heart.” Proverbs 7:2-3
​

The people of the Old Testament did not walk around with Bibles under their arms. They memorized the scriptures that was read to them at the Temple and synagogues.

“These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.” 1 John 2:26-27

Letter to those appointed in positions of authority. This was to a specific audience, with a specific group of people trying to deceive them.

Looks pretty clear to me.

Not as clear as you presented.

Show us the scriptures of anyone ‘appointing’ themself to be a teacher in the scriptures?

Let’s see, the Ethiopian eunuch had scriptures, was reading them aloud, but it took Philip to teach Jesus to him for him to understand and then he converted. Acts 8.​

 

[guanophore]

I was a “Catholic Christian” I am now a" Non Catholic Christian" After Forty two years I left the Catholic Church after attending A Lutheran Church once. The Liturgy is very similar. Just a lot less power and control by the pastor over the parish. Members are people in a Lutheran church not subjects of a priest’s Control

Well. members of a Catholic parish are not either, but it is interesting that you perceived it that way.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I was a “Catholic Christian” I am now a" Non Catholic Christian" After Forty two years I left the Catholic Church after attending A Lutheran Church once. The Liturgy is very similar. Just a lot less power and control by the pastor over the parish. Members are people in a Lutheran church not subjects of a priest’s Control

Hello olds442,

What do you mean by this?

It’s my understanding that the Lutheran church is a pretty orthodox, Protestant denomination. I don’t know your personal circumstance, and it doesn’t really matter at this point. When I read a post like this, I think about those people who leave the Catholic Church, because they want to have God on their terms and not on God’s terms…

Some examples of this could be a denomination that says that, “sex before marriage is ok”, “multiple marriages are ok”, “no birth control, that’s ok”, homosexuality - ok… ok…ok…ok… and so on…

I’ve also met people who have said they were Catholic and they weren’t, so they could try to make a “Protestant” point.

Can you please elaborate, especially, regarding your definition of “a priest having power and control”…

My experience tells me that there are many ex-Catholics, who said that they have been Catholic for 30 or 40 years and then, “all of a sudden” decided to become, X,Y, or Z Protestant, when in reality, these people weren’t ever truly observant Catholics in the first place.

They haven’t been to a Catholic Church in years and when they finally decided that they wanted to come back to the Catholic Church, they had a problem or two and might have to overcome some hurdles to return to the Sacraments.

This is because they knowingly violated God’s laws, committed sins, defined by the Catholic Church and instead of getting their spiritual matters in order, decide to “church-shop” and find a Protestant denomination that fit their current lifestyle needs and beliefs…

Does this apply to you?

Did you leave the Church because you wanted to have God on your terms?

Please explain your post.

 

[gmcbroom]

It’s just my opinion of course but I believe more people aren’t catholic christians because of a mis understanding of the church, its doctrines, dogmas, and political activity. I myself accept all the doctrines and dogmas, even though I don’t understand alot of them. As I’m not into politics I don’t allow myself to be drawn into htose issues. I go to church to worship God and learn about the faith. I am not the perfect catholic christian but I try to learn what I can, and worship.

 

[Jimmy_B]

It’s just my opinion of course but I believe more people aren’t catholic christians because of a mis understanding of the church, its doctrines, dogmas, and political activity. I myself accept all the doctrines and dogmas, even though I don’t understand alot of them. As I’m not into politics I don’t allow myself to be drawn into htose issues. I go to church to worship God and learn about the faith. I am not the perfect catholic christian but I try to learn what I can, and worship.

Nice post…

 

[Janet1983]

My experience tells me that there are many ex-Catholics, who said that they have been Catholic for 30 or 40 years and then, “all of a sudden” decided to become, X,Y, or Z Protestant, when in reality, these people weren’t ever truly observant Catholics in the first place.

Good you are saying “many”. The thing is that there are such cases in which a strongly practicing Catholic defects after years.
I am not part of the category of 30 or 40 years, but I have been a practicing Catholic until the age of about 24… 6 years short of 30.