I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[PRmerger]

Maybe “all” does not actually mean “all”.

EXACTLY!!

ALL cannot mean “all” because it doesn’t say “except Jesus”. And every Christian on this forum will agree that Jesus was sinless.

 

[larkin31]

To my understanding, God established the Sabbath for man, so man could rest from his work, as God rested from His! Was it Saturday? Or is the Sabbath, that day, after workong no more than six, that you worship your God?

Good question. Ask the Jewish scholars. It was first their text…

 

[Jimmy_B]

To tell the truth, I was being a bit facetious in my previous post I honestly believe that Christianity is neither a democracy or a religion! I believe that it is politically nuetral. Religion is man’s attempt to get back to God(ever since the fall-in the Garden) Christianity is a relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ! And when it comes to God’s will, neither one of us really knows what His will is; but we do know that it is always the right thing for us, no matter how much we fight it! I believe it is God’s will for me to do street ministry, feed the homeless, visit and minister to shut-ins, and seniors, and do worship music with believers and nonbelievers! I experience the fullness of Christ, no matter where I am! “Where two or more are gathered, there will I be also!” …

I left out your last sentence and question and I’m not going to answer it, because, who am I to judge. I re-posted the rest of your post though, because I liked it, and I agreed with it. I try not to judge anyone here; I merely try to defend my own faith. You are correct, when you basically said that only God knows. … I knew you were a good person. Thank you for doing what you’re doing. I enjoy defending my Catholic Faith here but I also know that there are many good non-Catholic Christians here, people who are probably nicer and more charitable than I am at times… I‘m a little rough around the edges… Thank you for your post.

God bless you!

Jimmy

 

[PRmerger]

hmmm

4 yr old? 5? 6?

Is there a church teaching on this?

Code of Canon Law states, “Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age” (CIC 11).

So, sin is not, in part, a condition we are born into for the Catholics?

If you’re talking about Original Sin, that is not a sin we are “born into”. Because of Adam and Eve’s choice we have been deprived of sanctifying grace, or of the gifts commonly called the “preternatural and supernatural gifts”. Baptism restores our ability to receive sanctifying grace.

 

[1beleevr]

EXACTLY!!

ALL cannot mean “all” because it doesn’t say “except Jesus”. And every Christian on this forum will agree that Jesus was sinless.

I think it goes without saying that Christians believe that Jesus was sinless(He was!). But, just because Paul doesn’t say,“except Jesus,” that we can infer that he meant ALL of mankind; born after Adam and Eve? Did the early church fathers interpret scripture literally, or to their liking? Sometimes when a non catholic questions something that a catholic believes in, the catholic will say,“well, that’s what the early church fathers believed!”

 

[PRmerger]

I think it goes without saying that Christians believe that Jesus was sinless(He was!). But, just because Paul doesn’t say,“except Jesus,” that we can infer that he meant ALL of mankind; born after Adam and Eve?

What we can infer is that St. Paul did not mean ALL, every single creature, have sinned.

That could include Mary, then?

Did the early church fathers interpret scripture literally, or to their liking? Sometimes when a non catholic questions something that a catholic believes in, the catholic will say,“well, that’s what the early church fathers believed!”

What we can see from reading the ECFs is that they were quite Catholic in their
understanding. They clearly saw Mary as sinless as well. But not as a deity.

Just like Catholics of today.

 

[1beleevr]

I left out your last sentence and question and I’m not going to answer it, because, who am I to judge. I re-posted the rest of your post though, because I liked it, and I agreed with it. I try not to judge anyone here; I merely try to defend my own faith. You are correct, when you basically said that only God knows. … I knew you were a good person. Thank you for doing what you’re doing. I enjoy defending my Catholic Faith here but I also know that there are many good non-Catholic Christians here, people who are probably nicer and more charitable than I am at times… I‘m a little rough around the edges… Thank you for your post.

God bless you!

Jimmy

You know something, Jimmy B, it never has been, nor will it ever be what I am doing, or have dne, but what Christ has done in me; and who I am in Him! I know that James says, that,“faith without works is dead,” and Paul says that it is not by your works you are saved, but I do good works because of faith. I know that God saved me to perform the works that He has planned for me.This is all part of His will for me, to glorify Him, in my service to Him! I do not receive, nor do I want praise from man for what I do in His Name; this will come in due time from my God! And when I do all right with a small task, He leads me on to something bigger, and more challenging. But I am not intimidated or worried, for I know that He has cleared the way for me. Hey, I am not a better or worse Christian than you, and I do what I do, and you do what I do. Everything that I am is because of Him; I could not do it on my own! God bless you, my brother in Christ!

 

[1beleevr]

What we can infer is that St. Paul did not mean ALL, every single creature, have sinned.

That could include Mary, then?

What we can see from reading the ECFs is that they were quite Catholic in their
understanding. They clearly saw Mary as sinless as well. But not as a deity.

Just like Catholics of today.

What you are really saying is, that catholics believe that Mary was sinless! And the early church fathers, may not have echoed the apostles, when it came to Mary I do believe that Paul meant EVERYONE had sinned, but that God’s grace was enough for us. Did not Mary refer to Jesus as her “Saviour?”

 

[PRmerger]

And if three year olds and down sybdrome kids cannot sin, then why do you baptize them?

So that they can have the effects of Adam and Eve’s Original Sin removed. So they can have an indelible mark on their souls.

Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1265)

Are you saying that Paul, as part of the apostoloic succession misspoke when he uttered this verse?

Never! St. Paul, as you know, was infallible when he wrote that.
(See? You* do *believe a man can be infallible! )

We just know that he didn’t mean literally “ALL” have sinned. You accept that there’s one exception. Therefore if you’re saying that I believe Paul misspoke, then you’re saying Paul misspoke also.

 

[PRmerger]

What you are really saying is, that catholics believe that Mary was sinless! And the early church fathers, may not have echoed the apostles, when it came to Mary I do believe that Paul meant EVERYONE had sinned, but that God’s grace was enough for us. Did not Mary refer to Jesus as her “Saviour?”

Yes, Mary referred to Jesus as her Savior. He saved her from falling into the pit of sin.

I’m sure you’ve heard of the analogy made by Dun Scotus in the middle ages: let’s say there’s a pit in the forest and someone falls into it. A rescuer comes and saves him after he’s fallen into the pit. The rescuer is this man’s Savior.

Now let’s say a woman is walking in this same forest and a man* prevents* her from falling into the pit. Is he not also this woman’s savior? He just prevented her from becoming all dirty (i.e. “sinful”)

 

[theistgal]

Some of it is information sharing. Some of it isn’t.

Wow, do I dislike that movie: teaches a teenaged girl that her heroism is only imaginary and that she has to give it up, wake up, and settle for the black-n-white world of home. No more adventures for you, silly stubborn girl!

Aw, come on - you have to admit being chased around by “Miss Gulch” in Kansas was at least far less dangerous than being chased by “Miss Rhymes With Witch” in Oz!

(By the way, next time you’re on YouTube, look for the MadTV parody of the ending of OZ - it’s hilarious!)

 

[theistgal]

Sadly, there is an almost equal amount of antagonism directed towards catholics! And I rejoice in the freedom of being nondenominational, especially after being around people of different faiths, who on the surface at least, appear to be in religious bondage!

I love the idea of nondenominational, 1beleevr; in fact, while I was in high school I attended a Bible study at a nondenominational church in my neighborhood. (My parents didn’t know about it - I was a REBEL, baby! )

It was a wonderful place filled with people who loved Christ and the Bible. However, even though it was nondenominational, it was very definitely PROTESTANT - there were some very definite comments made to me about the Catholic Church’s teachings which I realized later were incorrect and anti-Catholic.

Having said that, I’m still glad I went there. At the time, my Catholic parish was full of miniskirted nuns and rebellious priests, and I actually got more solid, basic Christian teaching from the Protestants than from the Catholics.

Which, to get back to the OP, is a big reason why a lot of nonCatholic Christians have not become Catholic - and why a lot of Catholics have become non (instead of nuns ).

 

[larkin31]

Aw, come on - you have to admit being chased around by “Miss Gulch” in Kansas was at least far less dangerous than being chased by “Miss Rhymes With Witch” in Oz!

(By the way, next time you’re on YouTube, look for the MadTV parody of the ending of OZ - it’s hilarious!)

Heroes must risk themselves, indeed. And so should heroines.

I will look up the youtube thing, thanks

 

[onmyknees]

You know something, Jimmy B, it never has been, nor will it ever be what I am doing, or have dne, but what Christ has done in me; and who I am in Him! I know that James says, that,“faith without works is dead,” and Paul says that it is not by your works you are saved, but I do good works because of faith. I know that God saved me to perform the works that He has planned for me.This is all part of His will for me, to glorify Him, in my service to Him! I do not receive, nor do I want praise from man for what I do in His Name; this will come in due time from my God! And when I do all right with a small task, He leads me on to something bigger, and more challenging. But I am not intimidated or worried, for I know that He has cleared the way for me. Hey, I am not a better or worse Christian than you, and I do what I do, and you do what I do. Everything that I am is because of Him; I could not do it on my own! God bless you, my brother in Christ!

1beleevr,

I just wanted to let you know that Catholics also believe all that we have and all the good that we do is a gift from Him. We also have a personal relationship with Jesus. We pray to Him in our own words all day long for everything.

At the mass we worship, praise, and give thanks to Him. We then enter into (the once and for all passion, death and resurection of Jesus Christ, we share in Jesus’ suffering by offering up our own sufferings to Him, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. When we receive Him, body blood soul and divinity,in the Holy Eucharist we are given a very special gift, we have this most holy and intimate time to talk to Him and through His grace we become more and more like Him.

In confession we do confess our sins to a priest who was given the authority by Jesus to forgive sins but the priests are representing Jesus. It is Jesus we are talking to and Jesus is the one who is forgiving us. I think Jesus gave us priests to confess to because it is humbling and we are reassured of His forgiveness.

 

[1beleevr]

So that they can have the effects of Adam and Eve’s Original Sin removed. So they can have an indelible mark on their souls.

Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1265)

Never! St. Paul, as you know, was infallible when he wrote that.
(See? You* do *believe a man can be infallible! )

We just know that he didn’t mean literally “ALL” have sinned. You accept that there’s one exception. Therefore if you’re saying that I believe Paul misspoke, then you’re saying Paul misspoke also.

I would never say that Paul misspoke, but you cast doubt upon his words, by saying that he didn’t literally mean ALL have sinned! I in fact, enjoy reading Paul’s writings more than any other apostle, including Peter! Never said that Paul, or any other man for that matter was infallible, including the pope! The Blood of Christ purifies us from sin, the baptism seals the salvation!

 

[1beleevr]

1beleevr,

I just wanted to let you know that Catholics also believe all that we have and all the good that we do is a gift from Him. We also have a personal relationship with Jesus. We pray to Him in our own words all day long for everything.

At the mass we worship, praise, and give thanks to Him. We then enter into (the once and for all passion, death and resurection of Jesus Christ, we share in Jesus’ suffering by offering up our own sufferings to Him, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. When we receive Him, body blood soul and divinity,in the Holy Eucharist we are given a very special gift, we have this most holy and intimate time to talk to Him and through His grace we become more and more like Him.

In confession we do confess our sins to a priest who was given the authority by Jesus to forgive sins but the priests are representing Jesus. It is Jesus we are talking to and Jesus is the one who is forgiving us. I think Jesus gave us priests to confess to because it is humbling and we are reassured of His forgiveness.

I have never doubted that anyone could have a personal relationship with Jesus, and enjoy the fruits of said relationship!But the cool thing about Jesus, is that you can experience all those things anywhere you are. Jesus will meet you where you are!

 

[onmyknees]

Quote:
Originally Posted by larkin31 View Post
Thanks. I read this. I don’t see how it addresses my point about authority. My point is that the story of Jesus IS the story of a man who, in part, rebels against the religious authority on earth** established by God through Moses and the prophets/B]. And that without this rebellion, there would be no life of Jesus. The life of Jesus demonstrates both the value and the necessity of questioning–and at times opposing–established religious authority, even that of one’s own religion.

Yes, he did, to some degree. He called the Pharisees hypocrites. He healed on the Sabbath. He stopped the stoning of an adulteress.

All of this was done contrary to the wishes of those in established religious power, with the sanction of religious authorities under God.

Larkin,

Yes, He did these things because God the Father sent Him to fulfill the new covenant that was all prefigured in the Old Testament. He was not rebelling against the authority of His Father in heaven by changing these practices. He also changed the law that said you could divorce and remarry.**

 

[onmyknees]

I have never doubted that anyone could have a personal relationship with Jesus, and enjoy the fruits of said relationship!But the cool thing about Jesus, is that you can experience all those things anywhere you are. Jesus will meet you where you are!

Yes, We believe too that Jesus is everywhere and we can experience Him anywhere too but in the Eucharist He is truly present in a different and very special way. It was Jesus’ gift to us. He wanted to give us this great gift since He knew He was departing from us here on earth until He would come again. I used to go to Protestant Churches to see what they were like. I missed Jesus so much in the Eucharist. He is really and truly present in the tabernacle in the Catholic Church. When you go into a Catholic Church you know that He is present. It is holy and sacred because Jesus is really there. Please read John 6:48-68.

 

[larkin31]

Quote:
Originally Posted by larkin31 View Post
Thanks. I read this. I don’t see how it addresses my point about authority. My point is that the story of Jesus IS the story of a man who, in part, rebels against the religious authority on earth** established by God through Moses and the prophets**/B]. And that without this rebellion, there would be no life of Jesus. The life of Jesus demonstrates both the value and the necessity of questioning–and at times opposing–established religious authority, even that of one’s own religion.

Larkin,

Yes, He did these things because God the Father sent Him to fulfill the new covenant that was all prefigured in the Old Testament. He was not rebelling against the authority of His Father in heaven by changing these practices. He also changed the law that said you could divorce and remarry.

I did not say this.

I said that Jesus was rebelling against the authority in Judea that God had established through the seat of Moses. It is very clear that he did this. Not EVERYTHING that he did was a rebellion, but several key events and sayings which characterize the heart of the sayings and deeds of Jesus. This is why he is arrested, after all.

 

[PRmerger]

I would never say that Paul misspoke, but you cast doubt upon his words, by saying that he didn’t literally mean ALL have sinned!

Then, 1beleevr,* you,* cast doubt upon Paul’s words by saying he didn’t literally mean ALL have sinned either. Remember, Paul did not say, “except Jesus” in that verse.

Never said that Paul, or any other man for that matter was infallible!

So where was Paul in error when he wrote Scripture?