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Cathryn
Guest
My brother-in-law is Jewish and says he is an atheist. He is ethnically a Jew, but doesn’t believe in God. His disbelief in God doesn’t change his ethnicity.
I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!
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Cathryn
Guest
"There is no Jew in the world who loves God and hates Christians, and there is no Christian in the world who truly loves God made man and hates Jews. Anti-Christianity and anti-Semitism are the yardsticks of our mutual failure to be religious. " (Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
I agree with the Church’s teachings on condemning anti-semitism and I love the traditional latin Mass. Fulton Sheen has a wonderful book called This is the Mass where he explained every detail of the latin Mass, and he had written books, radio broadcasts (1930-1952) and his television program (1952-1954)where he taught among many other things that anti-semitism is not true Christianity in any shape or form. 25 million viewers watched each week. Archbishop Sheen was presenting the true teachings of the Church to millions every week and he wasn’t preaching hated of Jews. Hatred of Jews has never been a teaching of the Church.
I agree with the Church’s teachings on condemning anti-semitism and I love the traditional latin Mass. Fulton Sheen has a wonderful book called This is the Mass where he explained every detail of the latin Mass, and he had written books, radio broadcasts (1930-1952) and his television program (1952-1954)where he taught among many other things that anti-semitism is not true Christianity in any shape or form. 25 million viewers watched each week. Archbishop Sheen was presenting the true teachings of the Church to millions every week and he wasn’t preaching hated of Jews. Hatred of Jews has never been a teaching of the Church.
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jssaxon
Guest
Anti-Semitism has been long a tradition of the RCC, so why does it surprise you that Traditionalist Catholics also value that longstanding tradition? It’s only recently that the Church stopped indulging in anti-Semitism. Vatican II had a lot to do with this change, as the Church leaders saw the blatent result of years of European anti-Semitism culminating in the Jewish Holocaust and wisely changed their tune.
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Listener
Guest
Here is a verse straight from the New Testament 1John Chapter 4 Verse 20:
If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a** liar**; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
I really don’t get why Catholics would want to be mean to the Jews. After all, Jesus was a Jew, and so were Joseph and Mary. The Jews are still the Chosen People.
If we had been born before the time of Christ, we would all want to belong to the Jewish Religion.
If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a** liar**; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
I really don’t get why Catholics would want to be mean to the Jews. After all, Jesus was a Jew, and so were Joseph and Mary. The Jews are still the Chosen People.
If we had been born before the time of Christ, we would all want to belong to the Jewish Religion.
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Seamus_L
Guest
It get’s a bit tiresome to hear only how Catholics hate Jews.
14 For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men;
16 Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.
Apocalypse 3
9 Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan (Pharisees i,e Modern Judaism), who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. 10 Because
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From the Douay Online 1 Thessalonians16 Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.
Apocalypse 3
9 Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan (Pharisees i,e Modern Judaism), who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. 10 Because
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GerardP
Guest
Another bogus attack on the Catholic Church. It’s amazing how you dislike the “broad brush” when it’s directed against Jews but you have no problem using it yourself. Hypocrite.
This is a “So, I see you recently stopped beating your wife.” statement.
No. Actually the rise of Hitler was due to his aping Judaism, the whole concept of “the Master Race” is a counterpart to “the Chosen People.”
The Church’s reinforcement of teaching against racial bias was undergone precisely to prevent people from calumniating the Church and using it’s teachings about the error of Judaism as an excuse for persecution.
This of course has been repaid by liberal Jews with nothing but further calumniation. And meanwhile like their Muslim brethren, you will rarely if ever hear outspoken leaders in the Jewish community condemn injustices from their own ranks.
The tribal mentality of many Jewish communities is the cause of their troubles, not their race.
Rabbis Marvin Heir, Schmuley Boteach and Abe Foxman (the theif) make their attacks on Catholicism in particular very prominent then they play the victim the whole time. In discussing the issue, cartoonist Will Eisner once described it as a race towards gaining the victim status.
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Cathryn
Guest
"The Jew and the Christian begin to hate each other at that moment when both look for external causes of their misery, and Jew putting all the blame on the Christian story of the Crucifixion, and the Christian putting all the blame on the Jews.
The Jew and the Christian begin to love one another when both look for the *internal *causes of their misery; that is, their sins and their forgetfulness of the moral law of God."
Bishop Fulton Sheen
Fulton Sheen as Bishop of the Church and spokesman for the Church, taught this to millions from the early twentieth century, first on radio (1930) , then Television. He was a traditionalist in the finest sense of the word. His love of the traditional latin Mass can be found in his book This Is The Mass.]
The Jew and the Christian begin to love one another when both look for the *internal *causes of their misery; that is, their sins and their forgetfulness of the moral law of God."
Bishop Fulton Sheen
Fulton Sheen as Bishop of the Church and spokesman for the Church, taught this to millions from the early twentieth century, first on radio (1930) , then Television. He was a traditionalist in the finest sense of the word. His love of the traditional latin Mass can be found in his book This Is The Mass.]
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latinmass
Guest
The Church and Traditionalists have always prayed for the conversion of all those oustide the Church so that we may all become fullfilled Jews as Christians following the teachings of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Please site some Church document or Church leader to back up this ridiculous accusation of anti-semitism. The Chuch prays for all, for outside the Church there is no salvation.
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Shoshana
Guest
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Seamus_L
Guest
On the subject of Catholic-Jewish relations I’d like to bring up the subject of the Good Friday prayer for the Jews.
Let us pray also for the perfidious Jews: that our God and Lord may remove the veil from their hearts; that they also may acknowledge Our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray. (‘Amen’ is not responded, nor is said ‘Let us pray’, or ‘Let us kneel’, or ‘Arise’, but immediately is said
Almighty and Eternal God, Who dost not exclude from Thy mercy even the faithless Jews: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of Thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same Lord Jesus Christ, Who livest and reignest with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, through all endless ages. Amen.
Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. (Silent prayer) Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.
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Prior to 1960, this was the prayer said throughout the world.
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By 1970 that prayer had been changed to So which of the two was anti-Jewish ? I imagine many people would say the original, but upon simple examination we see that in the first prayer, the church in no uncertain terms prays for the conversion and salvation of the Jewish people. In the latter prayer we have the false claim "that they may continue to grow in the love of HIS name and in faithfulness to HIS covenant" Obviously those who follow the teachings of Judaism DO NOT love HIS name or embrace his New Covenant. To me the ultimate hatred is to allow the lost to remain lost eternally.
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TMC
Guest
You don’t find the word “perfidious” anti-Semitic in this context? Its a classic anti-Semitic claim, that the Jews are betrayers. Do you believe that the Jews are, as a people, betrayers?On the subject of Catholic-Jewish relations I’d like to bring up the subject of the Good Friday prayer for the Jews.
Let us pray also for the perfidious Jews: that our God and Lord may remove the veil from their hearts; that they also may acknowledge Our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray. (‘Amen’ is not responded, nor is said ‘Let us pray’, or ‘Let us kneel’, or ‘Arise’, but immediately is saidCode:Prior to 1960, this was the prayer said throughout the world.
Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. (Silent prayer) Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.Code:By 1970 that prayer had been changed to
Code:So which of the two was anti-Jewish ? I imagine many people would say the original, but upon simple examination we see that in the first prayer, the church in no uncertain terms prays for the conversion and salvation of the Jewish people. In the latter prayer we have the false claim "that they may continue to grow in the love of HIS name and in faithfulness to HIS covenant" Obviously those who follow the teachings of Judaism DO NOT love HIS name or embrace his New Covenant. To me the ultimate hatred is to allow the lost to remain lost eternally.
On the larger topic, “Traditionalist” has many definitions so its hard to say what any “Traditionalist” believes. I think it is true, however, that while many Traditionalists are not anti-Semites, anti-Semitism has been an unfortunate feature of some of the larger Traditionalist organizations and leaders. I believe it is an overreaction to their perception that ecumenism has gotten out of hand. In response, they “over-correct” the other way. Many claim not to be anti-Semitic while simultaneously holding what most would call anti-Semitic views. If you want to know about a particular group you need to take a close look at what they say and what their leaders publish and make up your own mind if you think their attitudes towards Jews is appopriate.
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Metaron
Guest
Woah, woah, woah! That is way out-of-line! He said it wasn’t all Jews! He didn’t make a cover-all statement. He said the Orthodox are the ones that should be admired. We should love all Jews, and hope they convert to Christianity (Catholicism).
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Seamus_L
Guest
The best translation of the Latin word perfidis is faithless, so I think it’s quite appropriate. Back then we didn’t mince words and here’s the part of the same Good Friday prayer that applied to Protestants and the Orthodox churches
Let us pray also for heretics and schismatics: that our Lord and God would be pleased to rescue them from their errors; and recall them to our holy mother the Catholic and Apostolic Church. Let us pray. Let us kneel. Arise. Almighty and eternal God, Who savest all, and wouldest that no one should perish: look on the souls that are led astray by the deceit of the devil: that having set aside all heretical evil, the hearts of those that err may repent and return to the unity of Thy truth. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who livest and reignest with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, through all endless ages. Amen
Let us pray also for the pagans: that Almighty God take away iniquity from their hearts: that leaving aside their idols they may be converted to the true and living God, and His only Son, Jesus Christ our God and Lord. Let us pray. Let us kneel. Arise. Almighty and Eternal God, Who seekest always, not the death, but the life of sinners: mercifully hear our prayer, and deliver them from the worship of idols: and admit them into Thy holy Church for the praise and glory of Thy Name. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who livest and reignest with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, through all endless ages. Amen.
Let us pray also for heretics and schismatics: that our Lord and God would be pleased to rescue them from their errors; and recall them to our holy mother the Catholic and Apostolic Church. Let us pray. Let us kneel. Arise. Almighty and eternal God, Who savest all, and wouldest that no one should perish: look on the souls that are led astray by the deceit of the devil: that having set aside all heretical evil, the hearts of those that err may repent and return to the unity of Thy truth. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who livest and reignest with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, through all endless ages. Amen
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Or for the Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists etc Some pretty strong language there, yet the only ones who really complained were the Jews. Back then, we as a church believed in the necessity of belief in Jesus Christ. Now it's all warm and fuzzy, feel good let's not offend anyone.
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TMC
Guest
Well in English most people understand “perfidious” to mean “treacherous” and its the adjective most often used to describe Judas. The three on-line Latin to English dictionaries I consulted all rendered perfidis or perfidia as “treacherous” or “deceitful”.
But whether this particular prayer needed to be changed or not, do you agree that some of the Traditionalist movements encourage anti-Semitism? I don’t think they all do by any stretch. Certainly FSSP is not anti-Semitic in any way that I can tell. SSPX, though, is another matter, in my opinion.
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
No.
and as per my Latin Dicitionary the word is defined as *treacherous, faithless * and even websters dictionary defines it as “faithless”
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Seamus_L
Guest
No TMC, I do not believe that the Traditionalist movements encourage anti-semitism. As for the SSPX, I’m not a member, but their teachings on the topic are much more in line with the historic teachings of our church, then that which has been written on the matter since the 1960’s.
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jj2011
Guest
Hold the phone, everybody.
If you study and work with ecclesiastical Latin, as I have for years, tthe word perfidia refers either to faithlessness or unbelief. St. Cyprian in one of his epistles referred to the Roman Church, to which perfidia [unbelief] has no access.
I’m enjoying the citations from the trad Holy Week orations, tthough. Let’s pray them every day, I say.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Yes European anti-Semitism most certainly did culminate with the Holocaust, but it was mostly a Protestant/Satanic phenomenon. For instance in Catholic Germany most provinces opposed Hitler while Protestant provinces supported him. Hitler started his own “Aryan Church” which was intended to become the state church but thankfully failed and is pretty similar to the modern day Christian Identity movement. I’m sick of seeing the myth perpetuated that the Catholic Church somehow ‘caused’ the Holocaust. Nationalism is not compatible with Catholicism…
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TMC
Guest
Are you aware that SSPX teaches that the Jewish people carry a blood curse because of deicide and that this curse has rendered them incapable of discerning good from evil, resulting in their preoccupation with the things of this earth? Do you believe the Church taught this in the 1960’s? Do you think that Peter and Paul believed it was true of their childhood friends and uncles, of their mother’s rabbi? I don’t.
This is not merely EENS rejection of the Old Covenant. Not all who admire SSPX believe this, but it is what they teach. Take a look at their website, lots of “interesting” things there.
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TMC
Guest
I agree. People talk about how the Pope could have done more, and maybe he could have. So could have Chamberlain, and Roosevelt and the rest of the Western world. Nazism was not Catholic.
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