I enjoy the Novus Ordo Mass ...

[Nechasin]

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you were not implying that those who attended the EF are outside the CHurch.

With that in mind are you implying that those who prefer the EF should join N.O. parishes or remain in N.O. Parish to change it into a EF parish?

I will also give you the benefit of the doubt when you imply that people who attend the NO are outside the church.

I wasn’t implying that. I just get tired of the holy than thou attitude that is given from people who support the EF and how they complain (brag) about how they have to drive past x number of NO Masses to get to an EF Mass.

I apologize if I let my emotions finally get to me on this subject. And I hope that you accept my sincere apology.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m not sure that you do get my point. Abuses in Mass are common. And they can and do damage the faith of the people who are forced ( yes - forced) to attend. These things are evil and they must be stopped.

James, I do get your point. What is most troubling is that many parishes are using songs that will do some serious doctrinal damage, especially those that regard the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as merely a meal and downplay the Real Presence of Jeuss in the Blessed Sacrament. These songs focus more on the community and are a celebration of ourselves than take into account the Divine Majesty of God. Hymns such as Gather Us In, We Remember, Song of the Body of Christ and the Bread of Life version by Bobby Peter, while sounding rather innocuous, manage to subliminally chip away at the core Catholic belief in the Mass and its purpose. Gather Us In doesn’t even mention Christ, let alone the Father. Heck, in some hymns, God is no longer referred to as Father, which is a very troubling trend. Bread of Life focuses more on our relationship to each other rather than our relationship with Jesus. We Remember relegates the Holy Sacrifice to a mere meal, while Song of the Body of Christ has the word “we” a whopping 16 times and little, if no, mention of God.

When priests take it upon themselves to change the wording in the Eucharistic prayer (or any other part of the Roman Missal), when the roles of the laity are “confused” (having them preach) and when the rubrics are treated as optionals rather than requirements, it does slowly chip away at one’s faith.

 

[JDHallKY]

Hypothetically now. if you put a roomfull of 1000 Catholics who practiced ABC what percentage of them would you GUESS attended the N.O. vs. what percentage of them attended the EF?

Obviously, they would be almost all attend the NO, if they even go to Mass very much at all. But, that’s because the EF is attended by a small percentage of Catholics who are extremely faithful to the teachings of the Church. There are also such people attending the NO. But, yes, you are correct that cafeteria Catholics don’t go to the trouble to find and attend the EF.

Both forms are the Mass. That’s the point I was trying to make. Faithful Catholics who attend can get the same thing from both. Understanding, of course, that some people are going to have personal preferences for elements of one or the other.

And, I am sympathetic to the fact that finding a faithful NO is very difficult in many dioceses. I wish that were not the case.

 

[ac_claire]

Wow I am sorry for extremely offending you.

Hypothetically now. if you put a roomfull of 1000 Catholics who practiced ABC what percentage of them would you GUESS attended the N.O. vs. what percentage of them attended the EF?

yeah…
This is so not a good argument. You are better than this!
I do love how you threw “holding hands during the Our Father” up there with women’s ordination and denying the sacrifice of the mass.

 

[ac_claire]

Maybe a clown Mass isn’t the norm. But illicit Masses are the norm for many people here.
I’m not sure that you do get my point. Abuses in Mass are common. And they can and do damage the faith of the people who are forced ( yes - forced) to attend. These things are evil and they must be stopped.

like I said, I will take your word for what you’ve experienced. I just don’t know if all the examples I am seeing are a fair representation of most NO masses. Maybe on this forum there’s some lumping together of the truly evil abuses with things that are more personal taste issues …?

Feel free to come to Columbus anytime. We’ll pick 10 or so parishes to visit. At most we are likely to see licit Masses in only one or 2.
And that has been my experience in Cleveland and Cincinnati as well. You have to look hard to find a priest who knows how to read the black and do the red.

Off topic for a sec–

I kid you not, I am actually going to Columbus for Christmas! (My mom and brother live there.) Small world. I won’t keep you to the 10 masses invite…But I am curious, my family is taking me to St. Patrick’s parish. I’ve never been…Is it one of the ones you were talking about…?

 

[brotherhrolf]

I just get tired of the holy than thou attitude that is given from people who support the EF and how they complain (brag) about how they have to drive past x number of NO Masses to get to an EF Mass.

Just to set the record straight, I drive 25 miles past x number of NO Masses to get to a reverent NO Mass. It’s not a holier than thou attitude which drives me but the abuses. Sure, I remember what the Mass was like in 1960. I also remember the Mass in 1970. Guess what? Your average NO Mass in you average parish today does not even remotely resemble the Mass in 1970 which was the NO. It’s not about the EF, it is about what the NO was supposed to be and isn’t.

Look, the vast majority of us in the pews in 1970 had been brought up with the Mass in Latin. The minority took over in 1970. In my parish, out went the organ and in came the guitars.

“Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”. “And They’ll Know We are Christians by Our Love” in addition to Simon and Garfunkle. I was 19 in 1970 and attended Mass with my entire family. We quit attending our usual 10:30 Mass with choir to attend the 8:00 Mass without choir because of the guitars and the music. 1970. 1970. The abuses started that far back. And then the Communion rails disappeared.

My eyes have seen. My ears have heard. The reports of abuses are questioned because they are now accepted as normal. The NO in 1970 as said does not resemble what goes on in most parishes today.

 

[THurifer2]

I was 4 years old in 1970 my earliest memories of mass begin aroun 1973 and from about 1974 I vividly remember most of what mass was. I asked my mom and she said things started to go downhill about '74-'75 in our diocese…then things got really bad in 1976 when a bunch of women (many from our parish) went to a convention in Detroit title call to action which of course was the beginnings of Call to Action. My hometown parish is still run by those 5 or 6 women who have a held a very strong stranglehold on that poor parish for over 30 years now…they are all in thier 70s now but the damage they have cause could last for decades after they are gone. The parish itself is one of only 2 in the entire county and the other one is 20 miles away. The parish itself is nearly dead in fact Catholicism in that town of 6000 is nearly dead…it is very sad because in the 50s and 60s and early 70s it was a vibrant parish. There are scores of people that come from very active families in that parish that have left the faith…most of them left religion altogether.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

ddd86;3094669

I feel like i’m out of place within these forums.

Don’t feel out of place.

Remember, the NO is the ordinary, whereas the TLM is the extraordinary and for most dioceses, is attended by the minority of Catholics.

Jim

 

[DJgang]

Welcome Home! Welcome to the forums!

I enjoy the NO Mass as well … however, I don’t care to be reminded of my protestant days, sorry…as long as there are no abuses and we don’t overdo the guitar festival, I’m okay…

It’s still the same Apostolic Sucession, and the same Blessed Sacrament…

 

[THurifer2]

ddd86;3094669

Don’t feel out of place.

Remember, the NO is the ordinary, whereas the TLM is the extraordinary and for most dioceses, is attended by the minority of Catholics.

Jim

To quote Fr. Richard McBrien…those who admire the EF are a “TINY” group of Catholics…Of course one would wonder why McBrien would spend several weekly columns devoted to this “tiny” group of Catholics which he often refers to as a “fringe” group. Truth is, the man is likely terrified by the fact that the cause that he worked so hard to destro…oooops I mean change the church hasn’t worked and in fact is becoming unraveled before his very eyes. No doubt this TIny finge group of apparent nutcases scares the blarney out of him…Hey now that I think about it…are not Mustard seeds Tiny?

 

[IrishBrigade]

I’m with the OP. I greatly prefer the NO. I doubt I would have ever become Catholic if the only experience I had was TLM. I think it’s weird and spooky. Sorry to all who consider it reverent and meaningful. I can’t help the way I feel.

I don’t like hearing a foreign language because it means nothing to me, even with a translation. I live in the U.S. and I like the English language…

…the two phrases above carry about as childish an intellectual quotient that I’ve seen on these boards…*weird and spooky???*Time honored traditions you haven’t experienced generate fear in you? *Don’t like hearing a foreign language??? *The Bible was composed in Koine Greek, with subsequent translations into many languages…does it also mean nothing to you…

 

[pippin]

I hear a lot of complaints about bishops not allowing more TLM masses, but I wonder where the bishops are supposed to get the priests to say the TLM. Most priests today were never trained in the TLM and additionally training is optional. I know that my pastor is not interested in learning the TLM. He is very faithful to the GIRM being a Canon lawyer. He says he doesn’t speak Latin well and doesn’t have time to study it. I can understand as he is head of the dioceian tribunal as well as our pastor. With the current priest shortage it seems most priests are doing double duty. Many travel to parishes without priests to say mass. I don’t think the shortage of TLMs is all a conspiracy.

Pray for vocations.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Pray for vocations.

That is the most important part in all of this. We need to PRAY PRAY PRAY for vocations. It doesn’t matter if it’s a TLM or an NO- faithful men will become priests. so— PRAY!!!

 

[James0235]

Off topic for a sec–

I kid you not, I am actually going to Columbus for Christmas! (My mom and brother live there.) Small world. I won’t keep you to the 10 masses invite…But I am curious, my family is taking me to St. Patrick’s parish. I’ve never been…Is it one of the ones you were talking about…?

St. Patrick is not the parish I usually attend. Most Sundays you can find me at Holy Family (which is only about 3 miles from St. Pats). Holy Family has the TLM and does the NO pretty darn well. And (if anyone can believe this) I also volunteer with a Life Teen program at another parish.

But, I will say that the Dominicans at St. Patrick’s offer about the most beautiful and reverent Novus Ordo Mass in the diocese of Columbus.

You are likely to hear some chant and a little Latin. In advent at least they will actually chant the Entrance Antiphon instead of an opening hymn and I absolutely love that. I wish more parishes would do it.

For communion everyone receives kneeling at the altar rail.

And the priests typically hear confessions 7 days a week before or after every Mass although I’m sure they probably won’t be doing this on Christmas.

While I am a little partial to the TLM at Holy Family I think that overall St. Pats is one of the finest parishes in the diocese. I don’t think your family could have made a better choice.

It was actually on the Feast of the Assumption in 2003 at St. Pat’s that I had what I consider to be my first actual Catholic worship experience after having been a cradle Catholic for 20-some years. I saw Mass celebrated in a way I had only read about in books. It was an amazing experience. Before that all I had known was tackiness and liturgical abuse.

James

 

[IrishBrigade]

. *He says he doesn’t speak Latin well and doesn’t have time to study it. *

…sorry, but Latin is a phonetic language using our own alphabet, and in fact is less difficult to speak in than Spanish, because nobody today can tell whether it’s being mispronounced or not…as far as not having time to study it, well, sorry again, because it might take all of a couple of weeks to become familiar with the limited and repetitious amount of Latin required to fulfill the TLM…conspiracy may not be afoot hfere, but complacency and lack of initiative certainly is…

 

[XtusVictor]

Thanks for the OP. Both forms of the Mass are fine with me. Each has its strengths and each has its weaknesses. Benedict did a most wise thing in liberating the Extraordinary Form. But most Catholics will likely go their entire lives without experiencing the old mass and do not miss it.

One of the greatest travesties in the modern church is the constant denigration of the Ordinary Form of the Mass. In the long run this will only do harm to the church and perhaps lead ppl to Orthodox or other traditionalist jurisdictions.

Upset over abuses is reasonable. Denigration of the Rite is itself an abuse.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Why must these threads always descend into name calling and [edited by Moderator] contests about whose Mass is better?

Yes- the OF has issues, the EF had them as well. You all are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Fine- go to your EF and spurn those of us who hold to the Mass that we grew up with. Believe it or not, we love it, despite it’s uncouth appearance to some of you.
But it still contains Our Lord in the Blesses Sacrament. The OF and the EF give us the same thing- Our LORD in the Blessed Sacrament.

There needs to be a lot of people getting off their high horses. I had to get off of mine, and already know that it is the most humbling experience in the world.

We, as Catholics who are faithful to the Magestarium and everything that it teaches, need to work harder to bring the Church back than those who changed it in the first place. RS calls us to make sure that our Priests are conducting Mass the way that it was intended. We, as faithful Catholics, need to begin movements to bring people back to the Church we know and love!

It is my opinion that this new church year (what is it, BTW?)should be a movement among faithful OF attending Catholics to help being the Church home. I think that anyone who reads this should begin kneeling to receive. Perhaps send a letter to the Music Ministry requesting chant? But we need to start a movement to bring people home to the Truth. It will only take a few of us, but those few of us need to get it together so that we can make a difference.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Upset over abuses is reasonable. Denigration of the Rite is itself an abuse.

Exactly!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I hear a lot of complaints about bishops not allowing more TLM masses, but I wonder where the bishops are supposed to get the priests to say the TLM. Most priests today were never trained in the TLM and additionally training is optional. I know that my pastor is not interested in learning the TLM. He is very faithful to the GIRM being a Canon lawyer. He says he doesn’t speak Latin well and doesn’t have time to study it. I can understand as he is head of the dioceian tribunal as well as our pastor. With the current priest shortage it seems most priests are doing double duty. Many travel to parishes without priests to say mass. I don’t think the shortage of TLMs is all a conspiracy.

Pray for vocations.

My cathedral rector is in his 70s and has openly stated in our parish bulletin that he celebrated the TLM in Rome this summer. Our bishop “acknowledged” the MP. Our choir has been singing Latin motets and chant for years. We’ve got the choir. We’ve got the priest, so why don’t we have an EF? Answer: our bishop who “acknowledged” the MP. Truth is, the bishop could celebrate the EF. He was chaplain at my Catholic boy’s high school in 1969 and he had been ordained years before.

The resources ARE there. The desire is not - at the episcopal level.

 

[XtusVictor]

I wonder if there is not some tension between your bishop and pastor. If you pastor celebrated the EF this summer without his bishop’s approval, he was in error as the new law did not take effect until Sept. 14.

In any case, the celebration of the EF is the pastor’s discretion, not the bishop’s. I have head of attempts by bishops to put certain restrictions on eligibility to celebrate the EF, but have not heard of any bishop forbidding its celebration outright. If this is occuring, I would explect to be seeing well circulated lists of dissident bishops, which I have not seen at all. If you bishop is actively forbidding the celebration of the EF, this needs to be communicated to resources like Fr. Z. so that the proper Roman authorities can be notified.