I enjoy the Novus Ordo Mass ...

[Brenda_V]

Dear Cat: I certainly understand your feelings but as much as chant gives you the “heebie jeebies” - so too does rock music affect me. I get put into the very awkward position of some kind of liturgical superiority since I can remember when chant got thrown out and Simon and Garfunkle came in. You will remember that Simon and Garfunkle were in the Top 40 back in the late 60s.

Some may remember Paul Simon (I mean, hey, he turned me on to Andean Music and then to Ladysmith Black Mambazo). (Honestly only because DW listened to him when we were first married) *. But realistically, how many 18 year olds today know who Simon and Garfunkle are.

For better or worse, I have seen/heard the whole thing from 1968 until today. I do not like the position into which I am pushed.

On the one hand, I grew up Catholic before Vatican II. Latin is absolutely normal to me as is chant. Not to mention all the Masses/sacred motets by Palestrina, Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Mozart, Haydn, Bruckner et al up to the present day. You will disagree with me, but I simply cannot put these composers in the same category as a Protestant “rock” composer.

So I get placed into the very unenvieable position of having to say, “OK, Cat, your protestant rock anthems are OK because that is what you grew up with before becoming a Catholic and denying my own heritage as being outre and giving you the heebie-jeebies”

I’m sorry. There is a huge disconnect here. Cat, I am more than aware that what I say may be offensive to you. I don’t want to go there… On the other hand, I was born and baptized into the Roman Catholic Church in 1951. I made my First Holy Communion in 1958. I was confirmed in 1963. Did the altar boy thing for years. Do you want to take my heritage away from me, Cat? That is what it comes down to. I am placed in the insane position of acquiseing to you in deference to your conversion or throwing out my heritage.*

Brotherhrolf - Simon and Garfunkel were not Rock, they were Folk, just to make the distinction (I confirmed that with my husband who is closer to your age than I am. )

I do understand what you are saying though and I don’t think Cat is asking you to give up our Heritage (I too am a Cradle Catholic), she is asking that maybe we have both. We are falling into the “only one” when it could be “both, just not at the same Mass”.

I personally didn’t grow up with Gregorian Chant (I was born the year you made your First Communion!) I did grow up with the Simon and Garfunkel type music, I remember actually learning one of their songs at school - I went to a Parochial school and we had mimeographed sheets with the words and our Principal would get on the PA and the whole school would sing together that way “so you can sing and help all those who don’t know the songs sing them at Mass!” This happened the year after I made my First Communion which was in the Spring of 1966 so it would have been the school year of 66’-67’. I was way too young to know that this was just not right.

I do enjoy the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo) but I go to a Parish that is very Orthodox. Every time you say something like “when was the last time…” I can usually say “Just last Sunday” or “Don’t remember but it was this year sometime minus the Latin or with a little bit of Latin”

Brenda V.

Brenda V.

 

[Cat]

brotherhrolf,

Never would I advocate taking away someone’s preferred Mass form.

I have stated it over and over on these boards–let there be both! And that’s what the Vatican says, so I am right in line with Holy Mother Church’s teachings!

If Holy Mother Church said that all Masses henceforth will be Latin, I would submit. If Holy Mother Church that all Masses henceforth will be rock Masses, I would submit.

I have also said many times on this Board that I don’t personally like rock music. I avoid our LifeTeen Mass because I don’t like rock music, but when I have to go (because of a schedule conflict), I enjoy it because others enjoy it.

brotherhrolf, ALL Protestants grew up with certain norms in our churches which have been and are being taken away. Those of us who grew up in the 1960s and 1970s went to church one day in the 1990s and discovered that our church worship service had become a theatrical production, complete with lighting and sound crews, a director, a stage manager, and actors and musicians who actually “try out” to be up on the “stage.”

The difference between the Protestant and Catholic situation is that in the Protestant churches, this re-aligning of the worship services happened gradually, while in the Catholic Churches, as you have described, it happened virtually overnight.

Protestants have had the opportunity to adjust, while you and your peers didn’t. So you are still hurting, while Protestants are just kind of numb to the innovations in their worship services at this point.

One of the problems my husband and I had with Protestant churches is that just by speaking up and being louder and often richer than everyone else, people got their way when it came to worship services. We LIKE the fact that in the Catholic Church, there are “norms” that the Church itself declares, and that the faithful must adhere to those norms. Although Catholics can share with their authorities their preferences and longing for change, no one has the “right” to just make Mass over into what they want it to be.

This is so good! And at this point, much of the stuff that some traditionalist Catholics dislike is approved of by the Church. The NO Mass is a perfectly acceptable form, and offers the same graces as the Latin.

 

[THurifer2]

brotherhrolf,

Never would I advocate taking away someone’s preferred Mass form.

I have stated it over and over on these boards–let there be both! And that’s what the Vatican says, so I am right in line with Holy Mother Church’s teachings!

If Holy Mother Church said that all Masses henceforth will be Latin, I would submit. If Holy Mother Church that all Masses henceforth will be rock Masses, I would submit.

I have also said many times on this Board that I don’t personally like rock music. I avoid our LifeTeen Mass because I don’t like rock music, but when I have to go (because of a schedule conflict), I enjoy it because others enjoy it.

brotherhrolf, ALL Protestants grew up with certain norms in our churches which have been and are being taken away. Those of us who grew up in the 1960s and 1970s went to church one day in the 1990s and discovered that our church worship service had become a theatrical production, complete with lighting and sound crews, a director, a stage manager, and actors and musicians who actually “try out” to be up on the “stage.”

The difference between the Protestant and Catholic situation is that in the Protestant churches, this re-aligning of the worship services happened gradually, while in the Catholic Churches, as you have described, it happened virtually overnight.

Protestants have had the opportunity to adjust, while you and your peers didn’t. So you are still hurting, while Protestants are just kind of numb to the innovations in their worship services at this point.

One of the problems my husband and I had with Protestant churches is that just by speaking up and being louder and often richer than everyone else, people got their way when it came to worship services. We LIKE the fact that in the Catholic Church, there are “norms” that the Church itself declares, and that the faithful must adhere to those norms. Although Catholics can share with their authorities their preferences and longing for change, no one has the “right” to just make Mass over into what they want it to be.

This is so good! And at this point, much of the stuff that some traditionalist Catholics dislike is approved of by the Church. The NO Mass is a perfectly acceptable form, and offers the same graces as the Latin.

Good point. It is very interesting though that when arcb Bugnini and company orchestrated the CHanges towards the Novus Ordo is obvious that the changes had Ecumenism in Mind. But I believe it was a False ecumenism. If one studies the Genesis of the novus ordo, one will find that the changes were based on this Ecumenism. The Mass is what the Mass is…but ask anyone in my family what they thought at the time and they would say that the churchs worship style turned protestant overnight.

Here youtube.com/watch?v=lxx1ZRMpfk8is an interesting video that is thought provoking.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Good point. It is very interesting though that when arcb Bugnini and company orchestrated the CHanges towards the Novus Ordo is obvious that the changes had Ecumenism in Mind. But I believe it was a False ecumenism. If one studies the Genesis of the novus ordo, one will find that the changes were based on this Ecumenism. The Mass is what the Mass is…but ask anyone in my family what they thought at the time and they would say that the churchs worship style turned protestant overnight.

Do you think there’s any truth to the notion that they actually studied the history of the liturgy and tried to bring it back to what was done in the early church? Rather than trying to protestantize it?

 

[Cat]

THurifer2, your comments about Protestantism are thought-provoking.

Back in the 1960s, most Protestant churches, even the shouter churches, still had a “Catholic”-style worship service. There was a prelude, opening prayer and hymn, a choir number, an offering, a reading from the Bible, a sermon, an invitation to the altar, and a closing prayer, and a closing hymn.

Certainly there were variations on this, but I was able to play piano in different Protestant churches, including mainline churches, while I was a teenager, and never felt like there was a lot of variation from this lineup. One church might have a longer choir number, perhaps several choir numbers (especially the African-American churches and the Pentecostal churches), while another church might do a much longer sermon (like the denomination I grew up in–Conference Baptists–the sermon was at least 45 minutes long, and often an hour). But at least the basic structure of a Mass was there.

So I can’t see why Vatican II made Catholic churches more "Protestant,’ as back then the Protestant churches were still “Catholic.”

 

[benedictgal]

brotherholf, I appreciate the kind tone in your post.

Here’s the deal. We’re all different. We can’t help the way we are and think and feel. Much has gone into our formation. We can try to be someone that we are not, but it doesn’t work. If someone gets the heebie jeebies listening to chant, it won’t work to pretend that it’s beautiful and spiritual.

Some people believe that rock music is extremely reverent and worthy of the Lord. Others can’t even begin to comprehend this. Having been raised with rock music in the Protestant church, I very much appreciate a really good rock piece and believe with all my heart that this music is acceptable and a “sweet fragrance” to the Lord as much as is classical or chant or any kind of music. I don’t personally like rock music very much, but I appreciate that others like it.

Even though I can’t really appreciate the more ancient practices of the Catholic Church in a personal way, I can certainly respect and appreciate them for others.

But Cat (by the way, my vision finally cleared up and I am back to my contacts:thumbsup: and thanks for the prayers. I had to buy new contacts and new eyeshadow primer, but, at least I don’t look too scary anymore ), remember what the Holy Father (as Cardinal Ratzinger) wrote regarding the use of “rock” music in the Mass. The Mass requires its own particular music and the frenzy that rock brings with it is not suited for the Holy Sacrifice. I love Duran Duran; however, I don’t think Simon Le Bon and company would be appropriate for the Mass if they stick to their usual repertoire. I also like Van Halen, but, I don’t think David, Eddie and the band would be best apt for the Mass if their music sounded like “Jump”, “Panama” or “Right Now.” I’ve heard one piece that OCP uses in their contemporary repertoire that sounds like “Kokomo” and another one that sounds like “Tomorrow People (one of the Marley songs, I can’t remember if its Bob or Ziggy)”. The choir was swaying to the beat, not exactly the appropriate thing to do during Mass. Here’s the craziest one. When I was driving to College Station (business trip), I heard Fleetwood Mac’s “Tusk”. It dawned on me that “They’ll Know We are Christians” sounds exactly like that song. You could even sing “They’ll Know…” to the beat of “Tusk”, as the rhythm is virtually the same.

The Mass requires that the music be sublime and sober. I don’t have my Spirit of the Liturgy copy with me, but, in essence, that is what Benedict says. Furthermore, in Sacramentum Caritatis, Benedict writes that “one song is not as good as another.”

Therein lies the problem.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The Mass requires that the music be sublime and sober. I don’t have my Spirit of the Liturgy copy with me, but, in essence, that is what Benedict says. Furthermore, in Sacramentum Caritatis, Benedict writes that “one song is not as good as another.”

Therein lies the problem.

So true. The problem for me is not EF vs. OF. It is the realistic prospect of the total loss of our heritage. I have read postings from far too many young posters citing “On Eagles Wings” and “Be not Afraid” as traditional Catholic hymns. How many of them could sing Adeste Fidelis which was a well known and well loved congregational hymn in Latin for the Christmas season 40 years ago? Could they sing Veni, Veni Emmanuel? They ought to. They are perfectly capable of singing O Come All Ye Faithful and O Come, O Come Emmanuel. We sang both in grade school.

I think the Holy Father sees the problem and is trying to address it. He is meeting resistance. It is not the form of the Mass or the language. I have already stated that I have no specific desire to go back to the TLM. If I wanted to do that, our neighboring parish a few blocks away has one. I want to regain the reverence and solemnity of Mass not just at my parish but across my diocese. I don’t believe you can do that with keyboards, drums, electric guitars with amps, and miked singers.

 

[brotherhrolf]

This first post embraces what I am trying to say more eloquently than I could possibly do it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3113349#post3113349

 

[Brenda_V]

So true. The problem for me is not EF vs. OF. It is the realistic prospect of the total loss of our heritage. I have read postings from far too many young posters citing “On Eagles Wings” and “Be not Afraid” as traditional Catholic hymns. How many of them could sing Adeste Fidelis which was a well known and well loved congregational hymn in Latin for the Christmas season 40 years ago? Could they sing Veni, Veni Emmanuel? They ought to. They are perfectly capable of singing O Come All Ye Faithful and O Come, O Come Emmanuel. We sang both in grade school.

I think the Holy Father sees the problem and is trying to address it. He is meeting resistance. It is not the form of the Mass or the language. I have already stated that I have no specific desire to go back to the TLM. If I wanted to do that, our neighboring parish a few blocks away has one. I want to regain the reverence and solemnity of Mass not just at my parish but across my diocese. I don’t believe you can do that with keyboards, drums, electric guitars with amps, and miked singers.

I understand now what you are trying to say. You are right. At our Christmas program this year we had to hand out sheets with the words on them to the two songs we were asking everyone to sing. The children did not even know “Silent Night” or “We Three Kings” in English let alone a foreign language! I could sing “Silent Night” in it’s original German if pressed - just don’t ask me to be in tune as I am most definitely “tone deaf”. This was so sad for me, how are these children not exposed to these songs at least in the home? We do sing some of the more traditional songs and sometimes in Latin. I can’t remember the last time we sang “On Eagles Wings”.

Brenda V.

 

[brotherhrolf]

That is so sad. The kids aren’t exposed to it at home and that is a large part of the problem. Unfortunately, I have to sing the “You who” hymn a couple of times times a year.

My kids grew up listening to the music of our Church and their father singing along at home. They have heard and experienced Christmas from the middle ages on with authentic instruments - at church. They have heard Mozart and Haydn in a liturgical context. They are now in their 20s and my oldest (26) is trying to learn the Latin responses to the Mass I learned as a child.

Certainly not every parish is able to do this. But I daresay that any of the hymns which we sung as a parish in the late 50s and early 60s are accesible. Instead of looking at OCP, why not turn back the clock and look at our heritage? For Christmas sing Adeste Fideles instead of O Come All Ye Faithful. I can guarantee you that folks my age know it. We did not sing O Come All Ye Faithful until after Vatican II.

 

[Glennon_P]

Wondering if you go for all of that other baggage that comes with the NO crowd…like The Pill, Womens Ordination, holding hands during the our father, the banishing of the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the overemphasis of communing with others…etc…

Wondering if you go for all of that other baggage that comes with the TLM crowd…like sedevacantism, “Vatican II was a false council”, “The Pope lives in Montana”, “The Pope lives in Kansas”…etc.

if you took a roomfull of people who do rebell in those practices you can bet the bank they are not EF Catholics.

And if you took a roomfull of people who do rebel in those practices I cited…you can bet the bank they are not NO Catholics.

I will apologize in advance if my generalizations offend TLM people who remain loyal to the Church…as your generalization has offended NO people who remain loyal to the Church.

For the record, my friend, I have attended both the TLM and NO masses. I prefer the NO, reverently celebrated. My wife of 20 years and I have never used any form of artificial contraception. The Church has spoken on the issue of Womens Ordination, and I humbly accept that teaching, along with all the teachings of the Magisterium. The only hands I hold during the Our Father are my own. The Mass is still the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[benedictgal]

I have said many times on this Board that I don’t personally like rock music. I avoid our LifeTeen Mass because I don’t like rock music, but when I have to go (because of a schedule conflict), I enjoy it because others enjoy it.

Protestants have had the opportunity to adjust, while you and your peers didn’t. So you are still hurting, while Protestants are just kind of numb to the innovations in their worship services at this point.

The problem is that Protestants do not have a form of liturgy. It is mostly a word service and music. They do not have a sacrificial element, as they view “communion” as a symbolic meal.

As a Catholic, I simply can’t be “numb” to the innovations because they are contrary to what the Church demands for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The “Life Teen” innovations, including the use of Protestant Praise and Worship, go against the liturgical norms. Even the Synod Fathers mentioned this in their Lineamata (working instrument) for the Synod on the Eucharist.

Pope Benedict XVI was at the Second Vatican Council as a peritus (theological consultant). When he returned to his professor’s post in Tubingen, Germany, he realized that all was not well and that the “Spirit of Vatican II” had begun to run rampant all over the place to the point that he left Tubingen to go to Regensberg. He said that whatever “innovations” were added to the Mass never should have happened. That is why he wrote three books on the subject (while he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) and was soundly criticized by those so-called “liturgical experts” because he was a “theologian” who didn’t know anything about the liturgy.

Now that he is Pope, Benedict is trying to steer the barque of Peter in the right direction. He has made the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass the cornerstone of his pontificate. That is not to say that Pope John Paul II had some trouble with the rudder. After all, JPII was the one who ordered both the Congregations for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and the Doctrine of the Faith to work together to produce Redemptionis Sacramentum. He also convened the Synod on the Eucharist to examine the negative effects of liturgical abuses on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I love Latin in the Mass. It is the language of the Church. It is an integral part of our 2,000+ years of existence. Because it is a “dead” language, it remains unchangeable, meaning that you can’t manipulate the words to follow fleeting trends and fads. There is also something very sacred about it that lends a note of sublimity to the Liturgy. Pope Benedict, himself, is urging seminaries to teach seminarians Latin. While my diocese currently doesn’t have a TLM, I try to go when my PV celebrates Mass in my parish because he is, by far, the best priest in town and he is the only one who goes through gtreat pains to celebrate the Mass with the reverence, dignity and solemnity that it deserves. He is also the best homilist in town. I sometimes wish that he were our bishop (but, he told me to never wish that upon him).

The Gregorian Chant is the default music of the Church. The Constitution on Sacred Liturty (Vatican II) gives it the pride of place and Benedict reaffirmed that in all of his pre-papal writings, as well as the documents he has issued as Pope). It is one of the Church’s oldest forms of sacred Music. These pieces, sung well, manage to pierce beyond the emotions and hit the deepest recesses of the soul. I could even sense that when I had a very bad case of the flu (by the way, Cat, maybe you could answer this in all seriousness, why is it that every time I get the flu shot, I wind up catching the darn thing, anyway? ) and woke up at 3AM and caught the closing Mass of the Synod on the Eucharist. It wasn’t the meds, believe me. I thoroughly enjoyed it (as my fever was breaking).

The bottom line is that we need to regain our sense of the sacred. Every day I thank God that the Holy Spirit inspired the cardinals to elect Joseph Ratzinger as Pope.

 

[Joysong]

CAT:

This is so good! And at this point, much of the stuff that some traditionalist Catholics dislike is approved of by the Church. The NO Mass is a perfectly acceptable form, and offers the same graces as the Latin.

In reflecting on the Christmas readings, I am always edified by God’s election of the first community gathered to worship His Divine Son. To whom were the angels sent singing Glory to God in the Highest? Lowly, despised, stinking shepherds, the commonest of the common people — NOT the rabbis in the Temple who were attuned to liturgy.

It pleased God to have ordinary folk receive the most awesome message of the Incarnation. I believe it STILL pleases God that common people bring their hearts full of joy to worship Him in settings that the spiritually elite might consider too lowly, too imperfect, too common, too ‘sacriligeous.’ Were God to wait until all things were utterly perfect, He may have to wait a loooooong time. While God could have delayed the holy birth until the ‘setting’ was more magnificent, He teaches us a silent message about the lowly stable where animals sheltered.

No, He loves us and is pleased with our songs of joy and heartfelt worship whenever we gather to celebrate liturgy, and He longs to give Himself to us in Communion.

Until liturgy changes are mandated from the hierarchy and brought down to us through the clergy, the congregation is not accountable for anything other than their own efforts to praise and worship God.

I always marvel that some try to teach us what our heart should find joy in, as if we did not really know how to love God. :doh2:

Merry Christmas, everyone!

 

[THurifer2]

For the record, my friend, I have attended both the TLM and NO masses. I prefer the NO, reverently celebrated. My wife of 20 years and I have never used any form of artificial contraception. The Church has spoken on the issue of Womens Ordination, and I humbly accept that teaching, along with all the teachings of the Magisterium. The only hands I hold during the Our Father are my own. The Mass is still the Holy Sacrifice.

You hail from Lincoln…of course…but that is unfair, you diocese has N.O. done the way they are supposed to be. The most reverent Mass in my diocese likely isn’t even close to in reverence as the least reverent Mass in your diocese.

Put it this way I have Lincoln envy.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

You hail from Lincoln…of course…but that is unfair, you diocese has N.O. done the way they are supposed to be. The most reverent Mass in my diocese likely isn’t even close to in reverence as the least reverent Mass in your diocese.

Put it this way I have Lincoln envy.

I am praying that DH gets into UNL Law, I so want to experience and truly truly reverent OF.

 

[FrCorey]

Of Course, the NO mass is beautiful if done correctly.

 

[Indyann]

In reflecting on the Christmas readings, I am always edified by God’s election of the first community gathered to worship His Divine Son. To whom were the angels sent singing Glory to God in the Highest? Lowly, despised, stinking shepherds, the commonest of the common people — NOT the rabbis in the Temple who were attuned to liturgy.

It pleased God to have ordinary folk receive the most awesome message of the Incarnation. I believe it STILL pleases God that common people bring their hearts full of joy to worship Him in settings that the spiritually elite might consider too lowly, too imperfect, too common, too ‘sacriligeous.’ Were God to wait until all things were utterly perfect, He may have to wait a loooooong time. While God could have delayed the holy birth until the ‘setting’ was more magnificent, He teaches us a silent message about the lowly stable where animals sheltered.

No, He loves us and is pleased with our songs of joy and heartfelt worship whenever we gather to celebrate liturgy, and He longs to give Himself to us in Communion.

Until liturgy changes are mandated from the hierarchy and brought down to us through the clergy, the congregation is not accountable for anything other than their own efforts to praise and worship God.

I always marvel that some try to teach us what our heart should find joy in, as if we did not really know how to love God. :doh2:

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Thank you, Joysong, for posting this beautiful, simple truth.

I was raised with the Tridentine Liturgy, had 3 years of Latin in high school, educated by nuns for 12 years, and I still prefer the N.O.

Perhaps if I ever learn to think in Latin, I will enjoy the TLM.

Blessed Christmas to everyone!

 

[XtusVictor]

In reflecting on the Christmas readings, I am always edified by God’s election of the first community gathered to worship His Divine Son. To whom were the angels sent singing Glory to God in the Highest? Lowly, despised, stinking shepherds, the commonest of the common people — NOT the rabbis in the Temple who were attuned to liturgy.

It pleased God to have ordinary folk receive the most awesome message of the Incarnation. I believe it STILL pleases God that common people bring their hearts full of joy to worship Him in settings that the spiritually elite might consider too lowly, too imperfect, too common, too ‘sacriligeous.’ Were God to wait until all things were utterly perfect, He may have to wait a loooooong time. While God could have delayed the holy birth until the ‘setting’ was more magnificent, He teaches us a silent message about the lowly stable where animals sheltered.

No, He loves us and is pleased with our songs of joy and heartfelt worship whenever we gather to celebrate liturgy, and He longs to give Himself to us in Communion.

Until liturgy changes are mandated from the hierarchy and brought down to us through the clergy, the congregation is not accountable for anything other than their own efforts to praise and worship God.

I always marvel that some try to teach us what our heart should find joy in, as if we did not really know how to love God. :doh2:

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Beautifully well said, Joysong. You live up to your nickname.

 

[Guitar]

You hail from Lincoln…of course…but that is unfair, you diocese has N.O. done the way they are supposed to be. The most reverent Mass in my diocese likely isn’t even close to in reverence as the least reverent Mass in your diocese.

Put it this way I have Lincoln envy.

It is not unfair at all. You said “NO crowd” or words to that effect. You didn’t add “except for those who attend NO in Lincoln.”

You didn’t address my earlier response to your post to Cat, which is nearly identical in content to Glennon’s except that I have never been to a TLM. (And I didn’t make any comment about “TLM baggage”.) You don’t know where I’m from and you have no idea what the NOs I’ve attended are like. I sure ain’t from Lincoln and I very much doubt things would be to your taste where I am from. They certainly would not have been in the place where I grew up. You don’t know whether I choose not to attend the TLM or whether I simply don’t have the opportunity.

[The distinction between a thing and its implementation, BTW, has always been crystal clear to me. When you say “NO”, that to me means the thing itself. If you really meant to refer to implementations of the NO that are illicit or barely licit, then a) that distinction needs to be made and b) an illicit/barely licit “NO” is not in my view an NO Mass anyway. If you exceed too many tolerances within the specification, the article eventually will no longer get through goods outwards inspection, to use a manufacturing metaphor, as it ceases to be the required article. At that point, it is illogical to be criticising the manufacturing spec. ]

 

[XtusVictor]

It is not unfair at all. You said “NO crowd” or words to that effect. You didn’t add “except for those who attend NO in Lincoln.”

You didn’t address my earlier response to your post to Cat, which is nearly identical in content to Glennon’s except that I have never been to a TLM. (And I didn’t make any comment about “TLM baggage”.) You don’t know where I’m from and you have no idea what the NOs I’ve attended are like. I can assure you I’m not from Lincoln and I very much doubt things would be quite to your taste where I am from. They certainly would not have been in the area where I grew up. You don’t know whether I choose not to attend the TLM or whether I simply don’t have the opportunity.

[The distinction between a thing and its implementation, BTW, has always been crystal clear to me. When you say “NO”, that to me means the thing itself. If you really meant to refer to implementations of the NO that are illicit or barely licit, then a) that distinction needs to be made and b) an illicit/barely licit “NO” is not in my view an NO Mass anyway.]

Your post illustrates why we should not use the language of “NO” Mass. It is properly either the mass of Paul VI or the OF. Please lets get past this ideologized language.