I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[Milliardo]

The problem in understanding this passage is that one would presume that nothing can take us away from God; not even sin will take us away from Him then? One forgets though that the point of the passage is that one cannot be snatched from His grasp for as long as that person clings to Him; being in sin means willfully loosening ourselves from Him, thus we then become lost. So there is always this caveat, if you will, of us not losing Him if we cling to Him. Those who misuse this passage forget what Jesus Himself taught–that we must be with Him to have this salvation, and it takes more than a mere assent to Him as Saviour: it takes obedience to His will in order to do so. We go back to the Judgment passages, specifically Matthew 25:31ff where we find Jesus saying to those who have not done His will–“I knew you not”, implying that there are certainly those there who knew Him (and He knew them as well) but did not follow Him, and thus they were cast out.

 

[Pax]

And you keep working, Thing, and earning the kingdom.

If Paul said it first and Thing repeated it, then why is it that Paul was not earning his salvation, but Thing is?

 

[Reformed]

There is a problem in logic here. Likewise, these questions presume things about Catholic teaching that are completely false.

Firstly, it is illogical to set up a strawman by pitting God’s sovereignty against the free will that he created and gifted to man.

There is a basic inequality of rather cosmic proportions between the two. Likewise, they do not exist together in the fashion that you have posed them. You have logically eliminated God’s “permissive will” as it applies to the exercise of His gift of free will in man. God’s sovereign will includes the element of “man’s free will.” God’s sovereign will and man’s free will operate within the universe that God created.

A man can act as a man in the flesh against God’s desires because God allows him to do so. That is why there will be unsaved people. This is not the same as saying that a man has any sort of sovereign will within the universe that God created or that man has some sort of power over/against God’s will.

If damnation is soley our own doing and salvation is a gift of God, it makes perfect sense that there is some interplay between the two outcomes that involves man. There is some mystery here, but man’s involvement in the two outcomes is not passive in either one. Likewise, works righteousness is not part of the latter, and the Catholic Church rightly condemns such an idea.

The accusation that the Catholic Church teaches works righteousness is a false one, and is generally based on a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching and perhaps even the concept of works righteousness.

I hope this helps.

How can you have faith and trust in God if He is not completely sovereign? I find your position on free will to be very emotional but also very unbiblical. God created Adam and Eve with a free will to obey God. The will of man after the fall in no longer free. The new birth reverses the order of inclination to sin, to living a life that is pleasing to God. The Spirit of God is the power and source to our obedience. To say that man has a free will as a Christian, is to not acknowledge the power of God through the Spirit who dwells in us. To say that an unregenerate sinner has a free will is to deny the truth of the fallen nature of mankind. The old nature is in rebellion to God’s rightful rule, and when we try to usurp God’s complete sovereignty over fallen mankind as Christians, then the old nature is resurfacing in rebellion against God. Is your faith based on your ability to not apostate, or is your faith in the promises of God and His absolute ability to fulfill all of them.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

How can you have faith and trust in God if He is not completely sovereign? I find your position on free will not be emotional but unbiblical. God created Adam and Eve with a free will to obey God. The will of man after the fall in no longer free.

No offense, but you appear to the one rejecting God’s Sovereignty, or at least contradicting it. You start off talking about “sovereignty” and then say “God created Adam and Eve with a free will,” despite the fact the two cannot coexist.

…or is God powerful enough to be able to have both exist, similarly to how God can be everywhere and yet we are not God and exist?

 

[Reformed]

This argument may work against Arminianism, but it does not work against Catholicism. In an Arminian system - whether it’s the classic or OSAS version -predestination is merely God electing those He foresaw would elect Him. Hence, in Arminianism, man has the final say and God simply rubber stamps man’s choices. That is not the case in Catholicism. Of course, to be fair, Arminians have their own explanation regarding the relationship between free will and Divine Sovereignty.

God Bless,
Michael

Arminianism and Roman Catholicism are rooted in very similar ideas. For example, how many Roman Catholics have used the free will argument which is unbiblical. I even had Roman Catholics use the divine rape argument and the robot argument. Roman Catholicism is a theology of synergism which is similar to Arminianism and sem-pelagism. All those systems of are unbiblical and fight the complete sovereignty of God.

 

[Reformed]

The problem in understanding this passage is that one would presume that nothing can take us away from God; not even sin will take us away from Him then? One forgets though that the point of the passage is that one cannot be snatched from His grasp for as long as that person clings to Him; being in sin means willfully loosening ourselves from Him, thus we then become lost. So there is always this caveat, if you will, of us not losing Him if we cling to Him. Those who misuse this passage forget what Jesus Himself taught–that we must be with Him to have this salvation, and it takes more than a mere assent to Him as Saviour: it takes obedience to His will in order to do so. We go back to the Judgment passages, specifically Matthew 25:31ff where we find Jesus saying to those who have not done His will–“I knew you not”, implying that there are certainly those there who knew Him (and He knew them as well) but did not follow Him, and thus they were cast out.

Please post the Scriptures in context and see if that supports your view. Are you saying that your are stronger than God?

 

[Reformed]

No offense, but you appear to the one rejecting God’s Sovereignty, or at least contradicting it. You start off talking about “sovereignty” and then say “God created Adam and Eve with a free will,” despite the fact the two cannot coexist.

…or is God powerful enough to be able to have both exist, similarly to how God can be everywhere and yet we are not God and exist?

What I am trying to share with you is biblical truth. God created Adam and Eve without the fallen nature. They did not have a fallen nature in bondage to sin. There is much what Roman Catholics post that is based on personal opinions as compared to biblical revelation.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

What I am trying to share with you is biblical truth. God created Adam and Eve without the fallen nature. They did not have a fallen nature in bondage to sin. There is much what Roman Catholics post that is based on personal opinions as compared to biblical revelation.

That is irrelevant to the notion that Sovereignty and Free Will can co-exist. If Adam and Eve had Free Will, then either God was not Om(name removed by moderator)otent at that point, or it coexisted.

Further, the council of Orange (the most anti Pelagian council) teaches free will was weakened by the fall, unable to do anything supernaturally good on its own, but the council says free will is restored by Baptism.

 

[Milliardo]

Please post the Scriptures in context and see if that supports your view. Are you saying that your are stronger than God?

Please do not divert this issue; where do you read that I am stronger than God? There’s nothing there that can be construed as saying that.

 

[Milliardo]

The will of man after the fall in no longer free.

If that is so, then are the people before Christ mere robots?

To say that man has a free will as a Christian, is to not acknowledge the power of God through the Spirit who dwells in us.

If this is so, then are we who are now in Christ mere robots? It seems that you forget we were given the freedom to choose; are you saying then that all your actions are not of your own choice, but merely the work of something outside of your control? Is God so mean as to so completely have humans as mere pawns in a grand chess game?

 

[Pax]

How can you have faith and trust in God if He is not completely sovereign? I find your position on free will to be very emotional but also very unbiblical. God created Adam and Eve with a free will to obey God. The will of man after the fall in no longer free. The new birth reverses the order of inclination to sin, to living a life that is pleasing to God. The Spirit of God is the power and source to our obedience. To say that man has a free will as a Christian, is to not acknowledge the power of God through the Spirit who dwells in us. To say that an unregenerate sinner has a free will is to deny the truth of the fallen nature of mankind. The old nature is in rebellion to God’s rightful rule, and when we try to usurp God’s complete sovereignty over fallen mankind as Christians, then the old nature is resurfacing in rebellion against God. Is your faith based on your ability to not apostate, or is your faith in the promises of God and His absolute ability to fulfill all of them.

Since you believe my contentions to be unbiblical perhaps you show me in scripture where it says that the regenerated man has been stripped of his free will.

I would also appreciate it if you could show me in scripture where it says that fallen man does not have free will.

Please make sure that when you attempt to prove by scripture that fallen man does not have free will that you examine and explain Acts 7:51 which says:

“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.”

I would also appreciate it if you could show me in scripture where it says that God’s gift of free will in man compromises God’s sovereign will.

 

[Reformed]

That is irrelevant to the notion that Sovereignty and Free Will can co-exist. If Adam and Eve had Free Will, then either God was not Om(name removed by moderator)otent at that point, or it coexisted.

Further, the council of Orange (the most anti Pelagian council) teaches free will was weakened by the fall, unable to do anything supernaturally good on its own, but the council says free will is restored by Baptism.

I’m not sure how biblical revelation can be irrelevant. All Scripture is God-breathed…

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3

Are you saying that baptism restored your free will? If you are saying that conversion restored us to the same status as Adam and Eve, what will prevent you from falling just like Adam and Eve? Please consider Romans 6 in contrast between the old nature and new nature. The new nature is never neutral since God the Holy Spirit dwells in us and also interceeds on our behalf. Just because we don’t completely understand why God allowed Adam and Eve to fall, we know God could have prevented the fall of Adam and Eve. God could have prevented Lucifer from falling too. I do know God does all things for His own glory. And all that God has ordained, will come to pass. We also know God is never the author of evil.

Here is my challenge for the free will position. With the exception of Adam and Eve prior to the fall, please provide a biblical case for an apparent free will that you think you have. Please try to reconcile Romans 6 too with the free will idea. What is the New Covenant all about, and why is it superior than the Old Covenant?

 

[Reformed]

Since you believe my contentions to be unbiblical perhaps you show me in scripture where it says that the regenerated man has been stripped of his free will.

I would also appreciate it if you could show me in scripture where it says that fallen man does not have free will.

Please make sure that when you attempt to prove by scripture that fallen man does not have free will that you examine and explain Acts 7:51 which says:

“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.”

I would also appreciate it if you could show me in scripture where it says that God’s gift of free will in man compromises God’s sovereign will.

Start with Romans 6 and consider my last post to you.

 

[Pax]

I know Romans 6 very well and I did read your post again. Neither provides the scriptures I’m asking for.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I’m not sure how biblical revelation can be irrelevant. All Scripture is God-breathed…

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3

I never said the Bible nor Biblical Revelation was irrelevant, I said that your comments were irrelevant in that the main issue was left untouched. Your assertion was that:
God created Adam and Eve with a free will to obey God. The will of man after the fall in no longer free.
And I responded saying that if that is true then God cannot be All Sovereign, per your ‘either/or’ logic.

Are you saying that baptism restored your free will?

I said that is what the Calvinist favorite Council of Orange teaches. And yes, I would agree with it, hence all the talk of Paul saying we are no longer slaves to sin and we should not submit back to being slaves again.
Gal 5: It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

If you are saying that conversion restored us to the same status as Adam and Eve, what will prevent you from falling just like Adam and Eve?

The supernatural gifts, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, was restored, but the preternatural (freedom from pain, death, etc) were not restored. So yes, we were significantly restored, at least in the more important sense of our souls being made spiritually alive.

Nothing prevents us from falling like Adam and Eve, hence all the warnings about falling into sin and such.

Please consider Romans 6 in contrast between the old nature and new nature. The new nature is never neutral since God the Holy Spirit dwells in us and also intercedes on our behalf.

Who said anything about a “neutral nature”? The old and new natures don’t mean human nature was removed/replaced, it means your soul is spiritually alive again and does not have to submit to the lustful desires of concupiscence.

Further, if you are trying to say free will somehow doesn’t exist because the Holy Spirit indwells causes you to run into serious problems, namely the fact the Christian can still sin, even gravely.

Just because we don’t completely understand why God allowed Adam and Eve to fall, we know God could have prevented the fall of Adam and Eve.

Sure.

God could have prevented Lucifer from falling too. I do know God does all things for His own glory. And all that God has ordained, will come to pass.

Sure.

We also know God is never the author of evil.

True, but Calvinist theology is not always logically consistent on this point. For example, if free will is a myth, and sin requires an action of the will, then God is the only one left.
Calvinists like R.C. Sproul JR (not Sr.) actually say God is the author of sin:
reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jr%E2%80%99s-evil-creating-deity/

Here is my challenge for the free will position. With the exception of Adam and Eve prior to the fall, please provide a biblical case for an apparent free will that you think you have.

Please try to reconcile Romans 6 too with the free will idea. What is the New Covenant all about, and why is it superior than the Old Covenant?

I don’t have the energy to get into a long discussion about these issues if you cannot even get past the first step: the existence of free will and how it does not do away with God’s Sovereignty.

 

[Reformed]

I never said the Bible nor Biblical Revelation was irrelevant, I said that your comments were irrelevant in that the main issue was left untouched. Your assertion was that:
God created Adam and Eve with a free will to obey God. The will of man after the fall in no longer free.
And I responded saying that if that is true then God cannot be All Sovereign, per your ‘either/or’ logic.

I said that is what the Calvinist favorite Council of Orange teaches. And yes, I would agree with it, hence all the talk of Paul saying we are no longer slaves to sin and we should not submit back to being slaves again.
Gal 5: It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

The supernatural gifts, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, was restored, but the preternatural (freedom from pain, death, etc) were not restored. So yes, we were significantly restored, at least in the more important sense of our souls being made spiritually alive.

Nothing prevents us from falling like Adam and Eve, hence all the warnings about falling into sin and such.

Who said anything about a “neutral nature”? The old and new natures don’t mean human nature was removed/replaced, it means your soul is spiritually alive again and does not have to submit to the lustful desires of concupiscence.

Further, if you are trying to say free will somehow doesn’t exist because the Holy Spirit indwells causes you to run into serious problems, namely the fact the Christian can still sin, even gravely.

Sure.

Sure.

True, but Calvinist theology is not always logically consistent on this point. For example, if free will is a myth, and sin requires an action of the will, then God is the only one left.
Calvinists like R.C. Sproul JR (not Sr.) actually say God is the author of sin:
reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jr%E2%80%99s-evil-creating-deity/

I don’t have the energy to get into a long discussion about these issues if you cannot even get past the first step: the existence of free will and how it does not do away with God’s Sovereignty.

Free will means different things to different folks. Please explain what you mean by free will before we continue.

 

[moondweller]

Nothing prevents us from falling like Adam and Eve, hence all the warnings about falling into sin and such.

This is close to a partial atonement theory (if not it) in that the cross of Christ dealt with sins only up to the time of baptism. And after baptism sin (transgression) again becomes the pivotal issue for man and salvation (Law: “thou shalt not…”). This is a departure from the gospel of divine grace revealed in the N.T. Scriptures, especially the Epistles of Paul where the doctrines of the cross and God’s sovereign grace are revealed.

 

[moondweller]

Yup. No one will “snatch” them out of his hand. That doesn’t mean that we can’t willing leave.

You completely ignore the post cross doctrine of redemption. Those (sheep) who are Christ’s are His through redemption. They’ve been bought (purchased) by His blood.1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?Why?1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body” (cf. 1 Cor. 7:23). There is no teaching in the N.T. that states that Christ ever sells off His sheep once He’s purchased them. Or that by hopping over a particular fence a sheep can disown His Shepherd. Sheep have no power to disown the One who bought them. No matter where that sheep strays, it is legally His. It is up to the Shepherd to discipline His own.

 

[Thing]

You completely ignore the post cross doctrine of redemption. Those (sheep) who are Christ’s are His through redemption. They’ve been bought (purchased) by His blood.1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?Why?1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body” (cf. 1 Cor. 7:23). There is no teaching in the N.T. that states that Christ ever sells off His sheep once He’s purchased them. Or that by hopping over a particular fence a sheep can disown His Shepherd. Sheep have no power to disown the One who bought them. No matter where that sheep strays, it is legally His. It is up to the Shepherd to discipline His own.

29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Wolves kill sheep. The flock is not spared, it is dead.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Free will means different things to different folks. Please explain what you mean by free will before we continue.

The freedom to do good or evil (obey or disobey God’s teachings).
Sin is the deliberate choice to disobey God.