I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[sandusky]

Well here it is again in case it gets lost in all the personal oponions posted above.

The wolves get the sheep. The flock are the people who belong to Him.

That’s your tradition; that’s neither the teaching of the apostle, nor the teaching of the Lord.

 

[Thing]

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Are you living in His hand, MD. What does that mean?

'Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.
’
Lets see what ‘Abide’ means;

To remain in a place.
To continue to be sure or firm; endure. Synonyms, stay (To keep up in a race or contest).
To dwell or sojourn.

Remain in His hand MD and you will bear fruit.
Remain not in His hand and ‘he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and be burneth.’

The wolves are among the flock, His people, and they will not spare them.
As long as you remain in His hand, endure, abide, you are safe.
If you, the flock, His believers, cease to believe and remain in His hand, then the wolves have succeeded and have killed your soul and snatched you away because you remained not, abided not, in his hand.

 

[Reformed]

John 15 in context. If Jesus is speaking to His disciples, consider His prayer in John 17 too.

John 15

I Am the True Vine

15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, [1] for the servant [2] does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

 

[moondweller]

Thing:

Are you living in His hand, MD. What does that mean?

'Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Jesus said this to His Apostles in regards to producing fruit - not obtaining or maintaining their redemption. You confound doctrines.

Lets see what ‘Abide’ means;

To remain in a place.
To continue to be sure or firm; endure. Synonyms, stay (To keep up in a race or contest).
To dwell or sojourn.

Remain in His hand MD and you will bear fruit.
Remain not in His hand and ‘he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and be burneth.’

The wolves are among the flock, His people, and they will not spare them.
As long as you remain in His hand, endure, abide, you are safe.

If you’re going to use the John 15 passage for either gaining or maintaining salvation, then you’re presenting a salvation based, ultimately, on fruit bearing. IOW, a “gospel” of works. Paul warned the Galatians of such “gospel.”

In John 10:27-30 Jesus states nothing about the condition of “abiding in His hand.” You (not Christ) add that clause. He simply states that no one (that would include “wolves”) will snatch them “out of” His hand; His Father has given them to Him; and He is greater than all (even wolves). Thing, is it your contention that wolves are greater than God? Was Christ lying when He said the Father is greater than all? Or was Christ, because of His humanity, simply deceived?

Those who are His “sheep” are His through redemption, i.e., He purchased them by His own blood.1 Cor 6:19 “Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body” (cf. 1 Cor. 7:23)…writes Paul to the Corinthian believers (sheep).

So the only way possible for His sheep to no longer be His possession is if He sold them off Himself. Can you show me where it is taught that Christ ever sells off His sheep? And under what condition does it state that He sells them over to their enemies (and His)?

Was Jesus lying by saying “and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish?” Was He deceived or deceitfully hiding from us the fact that there are “wolves” out there who are greater than God and have the power to cause us to, in fact, perish?

What did Jesus mean when He said, “but you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep” (Jn. 10:26)? Would not believing His words be evidence of not being His sheep? Certainly “wolves” believe neither in Him nor His words.

 

[ryanoneil]

…but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10

Paul taught what our Lord Jesus taught. Let’s continue on the same issues, but be nice.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. - Apostle Paul

Jesus says “My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” (John 10:27)

Would you agree that we must hear Jesus’ voice and follow Him in order to be considered one of His sheep?

If so, how do we follow Him?

 

[Thing]

Jesus said this to His Apostles in regards to producing fruit - not obtaining or maintaining their redemption. You confound doctrines.If you’re going to use the John 15 passage for either gaining or maintaining salvation, then you’re presenting a salvation based, ultimately, on fruit bearing. IOW, a “gospel” of works. Paul warned the Galatians of such “gospel.”

Remain on the Vine. Why? What does it mean?

‘he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and be burneth.’

That is what happens to the branch that does not remain, (abide), on the Vine.
It dies. And it is gathered up and burned.

 

[mikeledes]

Passages like Hebrews 6 confirm that a truly righteous person can fall away:

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

How can you be renewed again to something that never really happened? Both the words “renewed” and “again” mean that there is a repetition and renovation of an act that has taken place in the past. If “repentance” refers to “false profession”, then why on earth would anyone want a renewal to a “false profession” again? It is obvious that the repentance being referred to here is a genuine one that has resulted in being made partakers of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I believe that God acts passively and actively. Who restrains evil? When God removes the restrains of evil, what is the result? What is your understanding of Pharoh whom God hardened so His name would be feared among the pagan nations? How about Romans 1 and the removal of restraining grace. God has His ways to accomplish His will without being the author of sin.

I agree. I believe that God allows sin. However, the issue that you raised is that free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. So how do you reconcile the free will of Adam with divine sovereignty?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[moondweller]

Remain on the Vine. Why? What does it mean?

‘he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and be burneth.’

That is what happens to the branch that does not remain, (abide), on the Vine.
It dies. And it is gathered up and burned.

John 15 is not about salvation, it’s about producing fruit by constantly depending on Christ, “the Vine.” The most you can conclude from that passage is that apart from Christ a believer (the branch) cannot produce fruit. And that condition can become permanent. But salvation itself is not based on fruit bearing, but belief. You’re teaching a salvation based on works - a false gospel.

You avoided the rest of my post on redemption. After purchasing His sheep with His blood does He then sell them to His enemies to perish? If so, how then does He say: “…I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.”

 

[Thing]

John 15 is not about salvation, it’s about producing fruit by constantly depending on Christ, “the Vine.” The most you can conclude from that passage is that apart from Christ a believer (the branch) cannot produce fruit. And that condition can become permanent. But salvation itself is not based on fruit bearing, but belief. You’re teaching a salvation based on works - a false gospel.

You avoided the rest of my post on redemption. After purchasing His sheep with His blood does He then sell them to His enemies to perish? If so, how then does He say: “…I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.”

I did’nt avoid the rest of your post, I ignored it. My eyes were bleary and there was too much writing.

"…I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.

They will never perish as long as they stay in His hand.
Otherwise instructucting them to ‘Abide’, remain, in Him would be superfluous.

Remain in Me because you have to remain in Me to have Life eternal.

Remain in Me because I have forced and compelled you to remain in Me.

 

[mikeledes]

John 15 is not about salvation, it’s about producing fruit by constantly depending on Christ, “the Vine.” The most you can conclude from that passage is that apart from Christ a believer (the branch) cannot produce fruit. And that condition can become permanent. But salvation itself is not based on fruit bearing, but belief. You’re teaching a salvation based on works - a false gospel.

You avoided the rest of my post on redemption. After purchasing His sheep with His blood does He then sell them to His enemies to perish? If so, how then does He say: “…I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.”

Perhaps you can answer the following questions:

1. If life is the vital power for fruit bearing, as you stated in a previous thread, how can you lose this vital power and not lose the life?
2. If losing the vital power can become permanent and yet you are still saved, how can you progress in experiential sanctification without this vital power to bear fruit? And if you do not have the vital power to do good, then how does one not fall into a sinful lifestyle? And how is this reconciled with Hebrews 12 which states that Christians must pursue that sanctifcation without which no one will see the Lord?
3. From what is the Christian being “thrown away?”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Thing]

22 See then the goodness and the severity of God:
towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity;
but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

…Ouch.

 

[mikeledes]

I did’nt avoid the rest of your post, I ignored it. My eyes were bleary and there was too much writing.

"…I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.

They will never perish as long as they stay in His hand.
Otherwise instructucting them to ‘Abide’, remain, in Him would be superfluous.

Remain in Me because you have to remain in Me to have Life eternal.

Remain in Me because I have forced and compelled you to remain in Me.

Amen! Just as a branch is united to a vine and hence a member of the vine, Christians are “branches” because they are united to Christ the True Vine and hence members of His Body. Just as a branch must remain united to the vine in order to have life and bear fruit, the Christian must remain united to Christ in order to have spiritual life and bear fruit. Just look at the order of events in John 15:6:

6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The branch in question is not thrown away because it dried up. It dries up because it is thrown away, cut off from the source of life. Wither means death. A dried up branch is a dead branch and it is dead because it has not remain united to the vine. The Bible also says the following regarding abiding:

1 John 2:24-25

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

I take it that the wolves are not physical wolves but spiritual wolves and they do not spare the flock, - that either means something or it means nothing. If the wolves are powerless then it is pointless for God to point out that wolves will not spare them. If the attack is spiritual and from a mortal foe like a wolf and if you are not spared the attack then you die, spiritually.

And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. - 2 Cor 11

I think false teaching through false teachers is one of Satan’s greatest weapons. False teachers are counterfeits who sound like the real thing. They appear like Angels of Light. I believe God allows it so that the sheep will grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. These sheep learn to become more and more dependent on God in the spiritual realm. We cling to Christ and the Word of God when confronted with wolves. All Christians try in some degree to walk their spiritual journey through their own efforts… but are refined through trials, tribulation, testing, and suffering which ultimately drive us back to God. We know that God has the power and ability to purge all false teachers from the church if He wanted. But in His sovereignty, God has a reason for wolves to remain in the church. I personally tend to grow in the grace and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ when I discuss with others that reject that the Holy Scriptures as God’s authoratative revelation. We all believe in things that are not true because God is infinite and we know in part. The biggest question on this forum is where do we seek truth from?

 

[Thing]

And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. - 2 Cor 11

I think false teaching through false teachers is one of Satan’s greatest weapons. False teachers are counterfeits who sound like the real thing. They appear like Angels of Light. I believe God allows it so that the sheep will grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. These sheep learn to become more and more dependent on God in the spiritual realm. We cling to Christ and the Word of God when confronted with wolves. All Christians try in some degree to walk their spiritual journey through their own efforts… but are refined through trials, tribulation, testing, and suffering which ultimately drive us back to God. We know that God has the power and ability to purge all false teachers from the church if He wanted. But in His sovereignty, God has a reason for wolves to remain in the church. I personally tend to grow in the grace and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ when I discuss with others that reject that the Holy Scriptures as God’s authoratative revelation. We all believe in things that are not true because God is infinite and we know in part. The biggest question on this forum is where do we seek truth from?

The point is that ‘the flock’ are not spared.

That is what we do know.

It means one of two things;

1. God is unable to save the flock.
2. The flock are unable to remain in God.

 

[Reformed]

Jesus says "My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27)

Would you agree that we must hear Jesus’ voice and follow Him in order to be considered one of His sheep?

If so, how do we follow Him?

We all disobey in degrees, but a sheep grows in personal obedience to God. We are a sheep by faith that Christ’s obedience is sufficient for us to be a sheep. We follow Christ through the power of the Spirit. Listening to the Roman Catholic Church is not an indication of being a sheep. We hear His voice by the Holy Spirit illuminating biblical revelation to us, and by the Spirit we grow in obedience and conformity to the will of God in our lives. We learn to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. This is what we were made for.

 

[Reformed]

Remain on the Vine. Why? What does it mean?

‘he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and be burneth.’

That is what happens to the branch that does not remain, (abide), on the Vine.
It dies. And it is gathered up and burned.

You are describing the tares and goats in the visible church. God’s warning is to the entire visible church. Goats will manifest themselves by not remaining because that were never in-grafted into Christ in an eternal way. John 15 needs to be understood in the context of John 15, the entire book of John, and the entire Bible. You can see this same pattern with Israel. Who is the true Israelite according to the Scriptures?

 

[Reformed]

Passages like Hebrews 6 confirm that a truly righteous person can fall away:

Hebrews 6:4-6

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

How can you be renewed again to something that never really happened? Both the words “renewed” and “again” mean that there is a repetition and renovation of an act that has taken place in the past. If “repentance” refers to “false profession”, then why on earth would anyone want a renewal to a “false profession” again? It is obvious that the repentance being referred to here is a genuine one that has resulted in being made partakers of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
Michael

Sure, Hebrews 6 can be a difficult passage if you reject the truth of the invisible church. Our children have been partakers of the Holy Spirit growing up in a household of faith. However, in reality, many children in a household of faith have not been born from above by the Spirit of God. Baptismal regeneration is false because many who have been baptized by the Catholic Church are no longer Christians. I grew up with many Roman Catholics in high school and college. According to Scripture, those who are born again are kept by God. I believe the difficulty of Roman Catholic theology is caused by the teaching of baptismal regeneration, and baptism done by men and not necessarily by the Spirit of God. Therefore, many who have been baptized were never converted and have not been united to Christ. I was actually listening to the Oregon Catholic radio station. A well qualified Priest was teaching on the Catechism and he stated that some catholics have not been converted. If he believes that there can be catholics who were baptized and remain unconverted, what does that say about the teaching of baptismal regeneration?

1 John 5

Overcoming the World

5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. (no baptismal regeneration here) 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Testimony Concerning the Son of God

6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

That You May Know

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God [1] will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 John

 

[Thing]

You are describing the tares and goats in the visible church. God’s warning is to the entire visible church. Goats will manifest themselves by not remaining because that were never in-grafted into Christ in an eternal way. John 15 needs to be understood in the context of John 15, the entire book of John, and the entire Bible. You can see this same pattern with Israel. Who is the true Israelite according to the Scriptures?

Again He said the wolves would not spare ‘the flock’.
The flock are His sheep.
His sheep know His voice.

The flock are not those who are not His.

 

[sandusky]

Thing:

The point is that ‘the flock’ are not spared.

That is what we do know.

It means one of two things;

1. God is unable to save the flock.
2. The flock are unable to remain in God.

In a myriad of possibilities, those are the only two possibilities that are viable.

The wolves don’t spare the flock, however, the wolves have no authority to determine the final disposition of the flock, but God only. And no “created thing” can separate from Him those whom He has chosen as His (cf Jn 10:28ff; Rom 8:28-39; Eph 1:3ff).