I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[Thing]

reformed:

According to Scripture, those who are born again are kept by God.

According to you wrong interpretation, you mean.

21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Thing]

In a myriad of possibilities, those are the only two possibilities that are viable.

The wolves don’t spare the flock, however, the wolves have no authority to determine the final disposition of the flock, but God only. And no “created thing” can separate from Him those whom He has chosen as His (cf Jn 10:28ff; Rom 8:28-39; Eph 1:3ff).

Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Dream on

 

[Reformed]

According to you wrong interpretation, you mean.

21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

First, who are the natural branches? Now consider the visible and invisible church in the natural branches. Please go to the end of Romans 2, chapters 9, 10, and 11 in Romans in regards to the true Israelite within the nation of Israel. So…too there is a remnant chosen by grace.

 

[Reformed]

Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Dream on

Why do you continue to proclaim such a weak god? It seems you have a very low view of the work of God in redemption of sinful men. How big is your God?

 

[Thing]

Why do you continue to proclaim such a weak god? It seems you have a very low view of the work of God in redemption of sinful men. How big is your God?

They are actually St. Pauls words I quoted from - Acts of The Apostles.

 

[sandusky]

Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Dream on

Dream on? I don’t need to, I have the the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the emorning star arises in your hearts (2 Pet 1:19).

 

[Thing]

Dream on? I don’t need to, I have the the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the emorning star arises in your hearts (2 Pet 1:19).

2 Peter 1: 20 - the very next verse after yours in fact…:coffeeread: …prophetic.

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

20 “No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

 

[moondweller]

Thing:

I did’nt avoid the rest of your post, I ignored it. My eyes were bleary and there was too much writing.

Translated, you could provide no answer. You ignore the doctrine of divine redemption for the sake of your own tradition.

 

[moondweller]

Mikeledes:

Perhaps you can answer the following questions:

1. If life is the vital power for fruit bearing, as you stated in a previous thread, how can you lose this vital power and not lose the life?
2. If losing the vital power can become permanent and yet you are still saved, how can you progress in experiential sanctification without this vital power to bear fruit? And if you do not have the vital power to do good, then how does one not fall into a sinful lifestyle? And how is this reconciled with Hebrews 12 which states that Christians must pursue that sanctifcation without which no one will see the Lord?
3. From what is the Christian being “thrown away?”

The John 15 passage is not about losing salvation. It’s not about salvation at all. It’s about the power to produce fruit in ministry. Your questioning is based on a false premise and a faulty interpretation.

Since “Thing” ignores my questions to him on the basic N.T. doctrine of the believer’s redemption, maybe you’ll go back and address them? That is, if you know what the N.T. doctrine of redemption means. I seriously wonder since you allude to sin being the salvation-breaker for the believer.

All of you ignore Christ’s words concerning His sheep, “…and they will NEVER perish.” You argue that they, in fact, do perish, and this based on works, one’s performance.

There’s actually two different “gospels” being presented on this thread: One of grace, the other of works.

 

[Thing]

Translated, you could provide no answer. You ignore the doctrine of divine redemption for the sake of your own tradition.

Nope.
I ignored it, my eyes were sore and bleary - I responded the following day to what you reposted, (in a shorter version), as the main point of the post.

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks for the response. Just so you know where I’m going with this, I’m asking these question to get to the heart of what being a sheep means.

We all disobey in degrees, but a sheep grows in personal obedience to God.

I agree. obedience is part of “following.”

We are a sheep by faith that Christ’s obedience is sufficient for us to be a sheep.

I’m not quite sure what you are saying here. Could you clarify?

We follow Christ through the power of the Spirit.

I agree.

Listening to the Roman Catholic Church is not an indication of being a sheep.

I know how easily I can get sidetracked, so I won’t respond.

We hear His voice by the Holy Spirit illuminating biblical revelation to us, and by the Spirit we grow in obedience and conformity to the will of God in our lives. We learn to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. This is what we were made for.

I agree.

So, I’m still thinking about what it means to be a sheep and what following Jesus means.

Later in the Gospel of John, Jesus explains : **“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. . . Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” (John 14:15, 21) **

Is following Jesus (our status as a sheep) contingent upon our actions and intentions?

 

[Reformed]

Thanks for the response. Just so you know where I’m going with this, I’m asking these question to get to the heart of what being a sheep means.
I agree. obedience is part of “following.”

I’m not quite sure what you are saying here. Could you clarify?

I agree.

I know how easily I can get sidetracked, so I won’t respond.

I agree.

So, I’m still thinking about what it means to be a sheep and what following Jesus means.

Later in the Gospel of John, Jesus explains : **“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. . . Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” (John 14:15, 21) **

Is following Jesus (our status as a sheep) contingent upon our actions and intentions?

If we work through our comments with each other, it will come down to our mutually exclusive understanding of justification. Are you Eastern Orthodox?

 

[sandusky]

2 Peter 1: 20 - the very next verse after yours in fact… …prophetic.

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

20 “No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Those verses do follow what I’ve posted, and they pertain to the ***writers of scripture—***the verses are the Spirit’s assurance to the reader that it is He who directs the writings of prophecy and scripture.

I wonder how it is, Thing, that you are, IMHO, so wrong about so much, so often?

 

[sandusky]

The John 15 passage is not about losing salvation. It’s not about salvation at all. It’s about the power to produce fruit in ministry. Your questioning is based on a false premise and a faulty interpretation.

Since “Thing” ignores my questions to him on the basic N.T. doctrine of the believer’s redemption, maybe you’ll go back and address them? That is, if you know what the N.T. doctrine of redemption means. I seriously wonder since you allude to sin being the salvation-breaker for the believer.

All of you ignore Christ’s words concerning His sheep, “…and they will NEVER perish.” You argue that they, in fact, do perish, and this based on works, one’s performance.

There’s actually two different "gospels" being presented on this thread: One of grace, the other of works.

.

[SIGN]Amen!![/SIGN]

 

[ryanoneil]

If we work through our comments with each other, it will come down to our mutually exclusive understanding of justification. Are you Eastern Orthodox?

I’m Roman Catholic.

 

[East_and_West]

.

[SIGN]Amen!![/SIGN]

Two different gospels. The Gospel of Grace taught by Jesus Christ and preserved by the Catholic Church.And the Gospel of Cheap grace taught by mere men, i.e. Protestants.

 

[sandusky]

East and West:

Two different gospels. The Gospel of Grace taught by Jesus Christ and preserved by the Catholic Church. And the Gospel of Cheap grace taught by mere men, i.e. Protestants.

That’s great E&W, another “cliché;” however, you yet to explain the “robot” cliché.

How about the robot cliché, E&W? Will you explain that now, or will you take another powder
for a few days?

 

[Reformed]

Two different gospels. The Gospel of Grace taught by Jesus Christ and preserved by the Catholic Church.And the Gospel of Cheap grace taught by mere men, i.e. Protestants.

The message that you proclaim is weak and anemic. The person and work of Jesus Christ on behalf of sinners is much more powerful and effectual than you can imagine. It will accomplish all that God has intended that it will.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

• Gal 2

 

[Thing]

Those verses do follow what I’ve posted, and they pertain to the ***writers of scripture—***the verses are the Spirit’s assurance to the reader that it is He who directs the writings of prophecy and scripture.

I wonder how it is, Thing, that you are, IMHO, so wrong about so much, so often?

Please compile a big list of the protestants on this board and all their individual personal interpretations of a few Scripture verses, then pick the correct interpretations for those verses. Thanks.

The Holy Spirit directs also the interpretation of the writing he inspired - He does not allow the riff-raff to mess with His words, OK, hence Christ founded one Church and sent the Holy Spirit into it to guide it to all truth.

20 “No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

 

[sandusky]

Please compile a big list of the protestants on this board and all their individual personal interpretations of a few Scripture verses, then pick the correct interpretations for those verses. Thanks.

The Holy Spirit directs also the interpretation of the writing he inspired - He does not allow the riff-raff to mess with His words, OK, hence Christ founded one Church and sent the Holy Spirit into it to guide it to all truth.

20 “No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

You didn’t answer my question, Thing.