I got the joy joy joy joy

[Kitty_Chan]

sconea:

He would? How do you know this?

Because a brother and sister can draw a picture for their father and he will put those pictures on the fridge. He will love each picture equally.

If our fathers on earth can do such things for us then how much more can our Father in Heaven do?

 

[gelsbern]

wacky&wonderful:

I wish there were a charismatic catholic church within an hours drive of here.

Some non-catholics have said that we are still stuck at the cross, while they are celebrating that Jesus rose again and is in heaven at the right hand of the Father. They have moved past it, and we linger. I like our way better. More balanced.

Problem with that, is they have forgotten the cross, and it is BOTH the death AND resurrection that brought us salvation.

 

[Kevan]

Lischou:

This is the best explanation I’ve heard. Great job!! I’ll have to remember this.

You’re going to remember that the joy of born-agains is puppy love and we have no real commitment?

I’ve seen a lot of shallowness over here in Evangelical Land, but I’ve seen a lot of depth, too.

“Happy is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered” (Ps 32:10). I’ve passed from death unto life (John 5:24) and I know that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). These things are an anchor and a source of surpassing peace

I can’t help it; I’m happy.

 

[deb1]

When I was 12 I had an Asian friend, who had I played with frequently. One day, she asked me to assist her in gathering wild flowers from a bush. I asked if we were gathering these for her mom. A look of supreme joy suffused her features and she responded that no, we were going to put the flowers in front of a Buddha statue. Now for a southern little girl who was being brought up Baptist, this was pretty horrifying. Yet, I was intrigued that she showed the same joy that I saw in Christians. This shook my faith a bit. ( I have since been told that in pure buddhism that Buddha is not a god but this girl was reacting as though he was.)

When I was older, our school showed us a documentary on cults. I was again surprised to see the same joy and intense love in these brainwashed people as I saw during some charismatic services. If anyone watched the 20/20 documentary on the Kabbalah movement then they would have seen people reduced to tears from their strong beliefs.

My point is not that we should always doubt the sincerity or genuineness of the extreme, outward joyfulness that some Protestants show but that we should temper our opinion by the knowledge that people in other cultures and other faiths-even cults- express the same type of extreme joy.

The only way to judge another’s faith is to see how they handle difficult situations. How does a person respond during the worst times of life? How do they handle doubts?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Deb having a friend who is charasmtic and seeing her in service and at home and work. She is not glazed over at all times. Sometimes in church she is not always very happy. Yes they like to “let go” and do pew calathestics as her daugher describes it as she rolls her eyes, (and in fun not sarcasim) but they are looking for Jesus in all of it. Unlike a cult who does not.

Their “danger” they *sometimes * have to find this joy every service and thats too much to ask.

And its true when one finds a love and gets married after awhile the “dating love” starts to fall away. People then think OH Im not in Love and they divorce. But if they took some time and patience and some of the vows they took and realised that NO I am in Love, its just that the Love has changed, its grown into something new and better, deeper even.

Same as accepting Christ, at first its new then it grows. The joy changes and grows. But according to our Lord He instructed us to maintain the Childlike awe in our faith (and in our marriages) when we sing we have *joy joy joy * or even *Jesus loves me this I know. * Then we remind ouselves of His instruction and remember our “first loves reaction” and its childlike joy.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

PS

Cults are NOT experiencing Christs Joy they are experincing delerious delusion that has no ground.

They are looking for Christs Joy but are finding a poor substitute.

 

[dhgray]

wacky&wonderful:

I wish there were a charismatic catholic church within an hours drive of here.

Where are you?

 

[deb1]

Kitty Chan:

PS

Cults are NOT experiencing Christs Joy they are experincing delerious delusion that has no ground.

They are looking for Christs Joy but are finding a poor substitute.

I would agree, but the outward expressions are the same. My point is that there is no difference in appearance between a cultist and a person expressing these extreme moments of joy. I would imagine that my Buddhist friend-who was not glazed over or brainwashed- would articulate her joy in the same manner as yourself. How do you know that it is Christ’s joy that you feel? Is the only way that you differentiate between yourself and a cult is the fact that that you are a Christian? You have to realize that to members of other religions-not all are cultist- their emotional experience is every bit as real to them as ours is to us.

I think that the biggest test of a person’s faith is not when they are filled with Joy but when they hit the low point in their life. How a person handles the tragedies of their life is a greater indication of their faith for me. It is the low points in our life that end up helping us grow and mature as Christians.

By the way I do not doubt the sincerity of your religious experience. I do think that Christians should feel joy and contentment about being Christian. Occasionally I have run across dour people who seem poor examples of our Christian faith. But I also believe that it is possible that some of the people who claim to be always happy and perky are actually as guilty as whipping themselves into a delusional state as a cultist.

 

[Lischou]

Kevan:

You’re going to remember that the joy of born-agains is puppy love and we have no real commitment?

Kevan, I’m sorry to say that you understood me out of context. The comparison that dhgray was making was concerning the depth of Catholicism and not necessarily the 'lack of commitment amongst Protestants. That’s what I was remarking on but I can see how you misunderstood me and, believe me, it was not my intention (nor his, I’m sure) to cause any bad feelings.

I was Southern Baptist for 35 years and, yes, you are right, there are those who are deeply committed to Christ within the evangelical movement.

I do disagree with some of my Catholic brethren here, though. I grew up singing that song (Joy in My Heart) in Sunday School and I loved it and still do. I strongly disagree that one must be ignorant in some way or uneducated (Granny Clampet reference?) to enjoy that song. Maybe I’m misunderstanding some of you…I hope so. Please explain what you have against the song?

Lisa

 

[Della]

There’s a principle here in the discussion about joy in Christianity and in other faiths that I think is being overlooked, although not intentionally. I will try to explain what I mean in my own poor words:

God’s love and mercy extends to every person, no matter who or where they are or what they believe. Belief is a part of our reasoning and touches our hearts and souls, but it isn’t our heart and soul. It informs us but does not tell us how to react to God’s mercies and blessings–that is for the heart and soul to do.

So, when people of other faiths react with joy to the knowledge they have of God, it’s only natural that they should. These people are what is called “people of good will.” God is touching their lives where they are because he discourages no one from devotion, even if that devotion is misinformed, for they are demonstrating their will to love him and serve him as they understand it. This applies to our separated Christian brethren, as well.

God meets us where we are, but wants us to move on. This is why staying static in any faith system, true or false, does not satisfy. But, truly, only in the Catholic Church can anyone reach the full depths of spirituality and perfection because the whole of the truth subsists within the Catholic Church. People like St. Therese of Lisieux or St. Francis of Assisi come to mind. Some people of other faiths or Christian bodies manage to reach great depths just by fulling implementing what they do understand–out of pure love for God. And that ought to be a lesson to those of us who have the fullness of faith but don’t plum the depths of it, oughtn’t it?

 

[deb1]

Della:

There’s a principle here in the discussion about joy in Christianity and in other faiths that I think is being overlooked, although not intentionally. I will try to explain what I mean in my own poor words:

God’s love and mercy extends to every person, no matter who or where they are or what they believe. Belief is a part of our reasoning and touches our hearts and souls, but it isn’t our heart and soul. It informs us but does not tell us how to react to God’s mercies and blessings–that is for the heart and soul to do.

So, when people of other faiths react with joy to the knowledge they have of God, it’s only natural that they should. These people are what is called “people of good will.” God is touching their lives where they are because he discourages no one from devotion, even if that devotion is misinformed, for they are demonstrating their will to love him and serve him as they understand it. This applies to our separated Christian brethren, as well.

God meets us where we are, but wants us to move on. This is why staying static in any faith system, true or false, does not satisfy. But, truly, only in the Catholic Church can anyone reach the full depths of spirituality and perfection because the whole of the truth subsists within the Catholic Church. People like St. Therese of Lisieux or St. Francis of Assisi come to mind. Some people of other faiths or Christian bodies manage to reach great depths just by fulling implementing what they do understand–out of pure love for God. And that ought to be a lesson to those of us who have the fullness of faith but don’t plum the depths of it, oughtn’t it?

There is much wisdom in what Della wrote. When I was a Protestant I used to be bothered by the fact that people from other religious background expressed as much joy and faith as those in my faith did. Now I understand that God pulls on us all, Christian and NonChristian alike and that my Buddhist friend’s, for example, expereince was as real as it appeared. No, she does not have the fullness of the truth but she was still experiencing joy and the love of God in her own manner.

I thought you expressed this well. Far better then I would.

 

[Lischou]

Della:

God meets us where we are, but wants us to move on. This is why staying static in any faith system, true or false, does not satisfy. But, truly, only in the Catholic Church can anyone reach the full depths of spirituality and perfection because the whole of the truth subsists within the Catholic Church. People like St. Therese of Lisieux or St. Francis of Assisi come to mind. Some people of other faiths or Christian bodies manage to reach great depths just by fulling implementing what they do understand–out of pure love for God. And that ought to be a lesson to those of us who have the fullness of faith but don’t plum the depths of it, oughtn’t it?

Agreed! Ditto!

Lisa

 

[BlestOne]

I feel that Joy everytime I go to mass. Once a nun at my parish commented that I always looked happiest when I was at mass. I told her…Why not, I have just been invited to the greatest feast in the history of man? She loved my answer. Truth be told, I think this is why I don’t have problems getting kids to mass on Sundays, because I have always told them it is a Celebration!!! And we are invited!!! How much better can it get?

 

[Della]

Thank you for your kind words, deb1. Really, it’s a biblical principle that few people have explored–at least in apologetics. But, it is basic to understanding the Catholic world view, which is based on the whole of God’s revelation to his Church. John Paul II dealt with it in Dominus Iesus.

Unfortunately, when some people decided to reject parts of the revelation of Christ in his Church, they also tossed aside this principle. They began to teach that only those who believed as they did could be saved, contrary to the authentic Gospel. Their narrowness of mind in this matter has also infected many people in the Church, also unfortunately, so that we have fundamentalists in our ranks just as much as Protestants do.

It’s a gross misconception that God only blesses those whose theology is perfect, or what we think perfect, when in reality he blesses and approves of everyone who seeks his face.

 

[Eden]

Quaere Verum:

Those that I know are soooooo nice and soooo perky.

I know the perky kind of person you are describing. My question is, is “perky” really the outward projection of a deeply, profound spiritual communion with God internally? I have a hard time imaging St. Maximilian Kolbe or St. Teresa of Avila or St. Therese of Lisieux as appearing “perky”. I can’t judge anyone else’s soul. But it seems to me that a profound spiritual connection with our Lord would outwardly display itself as serenity, peace, calm - not perkiness. “Still waters run deep.”

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Eden:

I know the perky kind of person you are describing. My question is, is “perky” really the outward projection of a deeply, profound spiritual communion with God internally? I have a hard time imaging St. Maximilian Kolbe or St. Teresa of Avila or St. Therese of Lisieux as appearing “perky”.

You are soooo right. Can I imagine St. Theresa of Avila or St. Therese of Lisieux walking with a bounce in their step, using a high pitched voice with a permanent smile built in, swinging their heads as they talk, and teaching aerobics (not that there’s anything wrong with teaching aerobics)? I just can’t do it. They were much more serence peaceful people.

 

[esr]

I have noticed this with my non-Catholic friends too. They just seem so perky, like they are in “la-la land.” I wonder if it has something to do with OSAS. I have a friend who can’t wait for the “Rapture”. I think it is because they believe that they are 100% going straight to heaven when they die. While Catholics don’t presume our eternal security.

 

[slyboots]

You are soooo right. Can I imagine St. Theresa of Avila or St. Therese of Lisieux walking with a bounce in their step, using a high pitched voice with a permanent smile built in, swinging their heads as they talk, and teaching aerobics (not that there’s anything wrong with teaching aerobics)? I just can’t do it. They were much more serence peaceful people.
[/quote]

Nope but I can imagine St Teresa being overwhelmed by the love of God and the Holy Spirit as in the Bernini statue.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_of_St_Theresa

Or St Catherine’s rapture.
wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/c/caffa/s_cather.html

 

[Writer]

Quaere Verum:

What is it about the born again Christians? They seem to have this joy about them. Those that I know are soooooo nice and soooo perky. We Catholics may have the market cornered in the reverence and humility department (that’s a good thing), but they seem to own the joy market. We get to offer up our sufferings while they get to enjoy the life that God’s given them.

Is there a good combination here?

I got the joy joy joy joy
Down in my heart
Down in my heart
Down in my heart

I got the joy joy joy joy
Down in my heart
Down in my heart today.

And I’m so happy
So very happy
I’ve got the joy
Of Jesus in my heart.

And I’m so happy
So very happy
I’ve got the joy
Of Jesus in my heart.

Anybody have a Granny Clampet photo to go along with this song?

I am a Catholic and I consider myself born again. Our RCIA sponsor referred to it as the “second conversion”. As a former Protestant, I agree that the passion for the faith sometimes seems stronger across the street, so to speak, but that’s why each of us are called to do what we can for God and His Church.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hmmm we seem to still have a miscommunication here, there is perky and then there is the song of the message thread which is not perky but a expression of finding Christs Joy. The same joy He said we were to have if we were to truly know Him with a childlke faith.

And I would caution against confusing people who are exicitable about their faith with mixing them with cultists because they appear to be the same. There are those of us (my-sister-in-love being one) that while the mountain is falling on her she is still singing Christs praises. People accuse her of being happy all the time. And actually get mad at her. Ya know she just knows the secret of being contented in all things.

Besides just because someone is overly happy, maybe even a bit of that glazed look, and jumping and dancing around doesnt make them stupid or even not a true christian. At least King David didnt seem that way to me.