I have a question about the concept of Hell

[openmind77]

Well we do have one thing in common, heaven.

But Jesus offered us proof that he was God by bringing himself back to life. So I have to go with Jesus. Hindu dosen’t offer such proof but just states it’s beliefs.

May you be blessed with happiness.

Of course you should go with Jesus. I would to - Jesus definitely knew what he was talking about. But Jesus never said there was eternal hell or that you would go there if you used contraceptives or masturbated. And the fact of reincarnation was just suppressed by some powerful Roman emperor, Jesus had nothing to do with that.

Actually there is no proof either way on which theory is true - eternal damnation for trivial sins(or unfortunate circumstances - like being killed before chance to repent). Or punishment proportional to crime or sin and another chance at life to do better. There can be no proof unless we meet someone from the other side.

Absent any proof, the only thing we have left is logic, common sense and a theory that is just and equitable, because if we believe in a loving and just God, it must be so.

Is it just that a eighteen year old gets condemned to hell if he commits some mortal sin and gets hit by a bus before he can repent? And that a nasty old man who has not done anything for anyone in his whole life, but who repents all sins just before death gets to go to eternal heaven? Is it just that the fate of unbaptized babies is unknown, that perhaps all of them do not go to heaven? - But if they do go to heaven, what have they done to deserve that - is it fair? Do you believe in a just God? Or do you believe in some historical dogma which is not backed by Jesus’s personal words?

 

[DMC12]

Well, if we have true free will, there would be no ‘wrong choice’. Hell seems to be a punishment for not making the correct choice.

yes, this can be confusing, and I think I have seen Catholics that really dont know how to answer this (or maybe i did not understood what they meant).

In my opinion the thing as many (wrongly) perceive it, is that God give us 2 choices, either to follow Him or to go to Hell, and that is really not freedom, it is like saying that if someone is pointing a gun at you asks your money you have the total freedom of choosing what to do, and yes you indeed have some freedom, you can eihter give him your money, or resist which could get you shot. and I really dont think that is what God do to us-

Now this is what i think about the freedom He gave us, let me explain it with Human laws that are easier for us to understand, can you say you are free? you probably will say yes. then why can’t you just take the money from other peoples wallets without them or the police trying to stop you? I think you will understand the diference between freedom and licentiousness. you are to choose which car to buy (in your pockets limits) what to do on your free time and several stuff, yet you are not free to commit crimes.I think it is the same with God, he gave us free will, and we are free to live the life like we want, yet at the same time the free will makes us able to do things that we are not free to do, and that deserve punishment.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

I know that your question is directed to other Catholics on the forum, but I just can not help responding because the idea of eternal damnation for something as trivial as the use of contraceptives seems so silly to me.

It’s worth remembering that only unrepented mortal sin leads to eternal damnation. For a sin to be mortal, it must be grave matter (objectively serious), freely chosen, by someone with full knowledge of the sinful nature of the act.

So if you imagine someone who truly believes that contraception is a grave evil, and that committing it will result in their damnation, and yet freely chooses to do it, and then never makes an effort to turn back to God, what should God do? The person’s choices show that they do not want to go to heaven. Why should God force them there against their will?

 

[Cathoholic]

RRusso1982. Concerning your point in post number 14:

OK. Here is my case in point. Suppose you have a person who is overall a good person, lives a clean life, helps others, and the worst thing that person has ever done is have premarital sex or missed mass a few times, but overall a good person. If that person dies, do you honestly think that person deserves to rot in hell for all eternity? I would say maybe a stint in purgatory at worst.

You cannot “earn” your way to Heaven by being what you think is a basically "a good person”. It is NOT good enough. All of our “faith”, “hope” and “charity” (sometimes translated as “love”) MUST be supernaturalized by the Holy Spirit in GRACE otherwise it is in vain.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

NOBODY deserves to go to Heaven to be with God.

Grave sin, if done willingly and knowingly MUST be repented of (hint: Use the Confessional in this situation).

If you think a little premarital sex against someone made in the image and likeness of God is OK, go tell your spouse that you think “a little extra-marital sex is OK too" and see where that gets you.

If this is grave sinning even against your spouse (and it would be), how MUCH MORE is this sinning unacceptable against an All-Holy INFINITE God?

Serious sin is NOT AOK (see Galatians 6:7).

We MUST have God’s Holy Spirit or we will not even WANT to be in God’s presence eternally after we die. We will ASK for and CHOOSE self-condemnation.

CCC 679b . . . . By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589

. . . the worst thing that person has ever done is have premarital sex or missed mass a few times, but overall a good person. If that person dies, do you honestly think . . .

The problem is in doing such things (or omitting such things) you are “rejecting the Spirit of love”.

What if I were to say . . .

I mean really. Is neglecting Mass and not repenting of it, REALLY THAT big of a deal?

(Part of that answer is here)

Meditate on the utter holiness of God and the infinite goodness of God. Really think about it for a moment. WORSHIP God for awhile (have a prayer session where you don’t “ask” for anything. Just worship God because He is God).

Then re-word what you said to . . . .

OK. Here is my case in point. Suppose you have a person who is overall a good person, lives a clean life, helps others, and the worst thing that person has ever done is “rejecting the Spirit of love”.

 

[Cathoholic]

One other way to look at all of this RRusso1982 is:

OK. Here is my case in point. Suppose you have a person who is overall a good person, lives a clean life, helps others, and the worst thing that person has ever done is have premarital sex or missed mass a few times, but overall a good person. If that person dies, do you honestly think that person deserves to rot in hell for all eternity? I would say maybe a stint in purgatory at worst.

Now think of it this way . . . .

OK. Here is my case in point. Suppose you have a person who is overall a good person, lives a clean life, helps others, and the worst thing that person has ever done is. . .

. . . . .well really nothing too bad. Oh I OMMITTED doing things I SHOULD have done and I KNOW I should have done, but I never even had premarital sex or missed mass a few times, but I was overall “a good person”.

Oh I admit I didn’t try to feed the hungry (not just “food” but “truth”), etc. but mere sins of omission? I mean it’s really not that big of a deal. . . .

. . . . Is it?

NOT MATTHEW 25:31-46 (Phantom Verse) 31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, . . . . 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 **Then he will say to those at his left hand, do you honestly think that you guys deserve to rot in hell for all eternity? I would say maybe a stint in purgatory at worst. So have a little time in Purgatory playing volleyball and have fun. We will see you when you’ve run out of beer. **
42 Yes I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ . . . 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away knowing that they did not deserve to rot in hell for all eternity. They merely get a little stint in purgatory at worst. But the righteous go into eternal life right with these guys.”

Or is this what Sacred Scripture REALLY teaches . . . . .

MATTHEW 25:31-46 31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You and I are going to be there for this event some day RRusso1982. Now is the time when we can (with God’s grace) decide where we are going!

If this is true concerning sins of omission, how much more true is it for sins committed?

What will the Lord say regarding that old girlfriend or old boyfriend that you (or some other reader) may have abused?

I don’t know but it may be something like . . . ."'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

NOW is the acceptable time RRusso1982.

 

[openmind77]

It’s worth remembering that only unrepented mortal sin leads to eternal damnation. For a sin to be mortal, it must be grave matter (objectively serious), freely chosen, by someone with full knowledge of the sinful nature of the act.

So if you imagine someone who truly believes that contraception is a grave evil, and that committing it will result in their damnation, and yet freely chooses to do it, and then never makes an effort to turn back to God, what should God do? The person’s choices show that they do not want to go to heaven. Why should God force them there against their will?

Sorry, I did not realize that as long as you do not believe that use of contraceptives is a grave evil, then it is OK to go ahead and use them and you will not be damned for using them. I am sure 90% of those who use them do not believe that they are a grave matter.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Sorry, I did not realize that as long as you do not believe that use of contraceptives is a grave evil, then it is OK to go ahead and use them and you will not be damned for using them. I am sure 90% of those who use them do not believe that they are a grave matter.

Well, to be clear, there is a continuity of opinion on exactly what “full knowledge” means. Some think that as long as a person has been exposed to the teaching in some way, that constitutes full knowledge. Some think that a person who has heard the teaching but honestly disagrees does not have full knowledge. It’s a little ambiguous.

What we know is that you can’t trick God. You can’t use willful or feigned ignorance as an excuse to do what you please, and then expect to say “Hey, I didn’t know!”

And we also know that God wants people to go to heaven more than the people want it. So to an extent, we can trust in the mercy of God in ambiguous cases.

Speaking for myself, from what I’ve learned, I’m convinced that nobody goes to hell by accident, or for an honest error in judgement. But like I said, there are various opinions on the point.

 

[RRusso1982]

So, you are saying that a person may not think it is really a huge deal to miss mass on occasion or have premarital sex? They just don’t know the gravity of it. In that case “full knowledge” may not apply?

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

That is how I read the conditions for mortal sin, yes. It seems to me that if a person honestly doesn’t think that these things are “big deals”, then they will not be held as culpable for them.

Again - there are other opinions. Technically, the catechism says “knowledge”, not “belief”. Maybe that means that any exposure to the teaching suffices. I don’t know, but that seems incongruous with my understanding of God’s mercy.

Do you think it’s a big deal to miss mass or have premarital sex? I think both of those are a lot bigger than our culture would have us believe.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

That is how I read the conditions for mortal sin, yes. It seems to me that if a person honestly doesn’t think that these things are “big deals”, then they will not be held as culpable for them.

Again - there are other opinions. Technically, the catechism says “knowledge”, not “belief”. Maybe that means that any exposure to the teaching suffices. I don’t know, but that seems incongruous with my understanding of God’s mercy.

Do you think it’s a big deal to miss mass or have premarital sex? I think both of those are a lot bigger than our culture would have us believe.

I think a lot more people would be ignorant.

Many people say one chooses hell, but i think many people choose sin with a perceived benefit or good, and not choosing eternal despair and suffering.

If many people saw hell, no one would choose it. But since no one living has seen it, no one chooses hell, they choose themselves and their pleasure. I would think everyone would be ignorant then unless youve personally seen hell and still chose it.

 

[God_s_Beloved]

It might be helpful to look at the following links in light of your question. I remember when Pope John Paul II was asked about hell and the answer he gave. See the links below. I hope this is helpful.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm?p=20-paragraph21.xhtml%23para1035

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm

Live Jesus

 

[Cathoholic]

RRusso1982. You stated:

So, you are saying that a person may not think it is really a huge deal to miss mass on occasion or have premarital sex? They just don’t know the gravity of it. In that case “full knowledge” may not apply?

This is a partial truth.

Here is what the CCC says (CCC 848 and 1790 for example) affirming what you say (but that’s only PART of the package) . . .

CCC 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

CCC 1790b . . . Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

**BUT! . . . . . **

CCC 1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

CCC 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases,** the person is culpable for the evil he commits. **

And EVEN if he were NOT culpable there are still effects of sins that remain isn’t there?

A profoundly mentally retarded man who molests a child or rapes a woman may not be culpable at all on his judgment day, but evil acts always have consequences.

If this man merely threw a rock threw a window, he might not be culpable . . . but the window is still broken.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Lots of people are going to be surprised, it seems, when they meet God and it also seems that some of those that will be most surprised will be those that believe in God and have God and everything about God all figured out.

 

[eccehomo]

OK. Here is my case in point. Suppose you have a person who is overall a good person, lives a clean life, helps others, and the worst thing that person has ever done is have premarital sex or missed mass a few times, but overall a good person. If that person dies, do you honestly think that person deserves to rot in hell for all eternity? I would say maybe a stint in purgatory at worst.

Hi RRusso1982: FINALLY someone mentioned Purgatory. Heaven is for erfect", not almost perfect. God gave us all, even the worst of us, an out - it is Confession. Use this grace, and you may be invited to Purgatory. Don’t use it and you will die forever. One of the commentators mentioned if we were forced to Heaven it wouldn’t BE Heaven. So very true. We put ourselves in Hell by not Confessing our sins often, And making true and sincere repentance. So, Pure Love, God, gives us free will to try to enter Heaven, knowing that we are flawed, so He gives us the Grace of Confession and Repentance to help. Couple that with Purgatory, kind of a laundry for your soul, and “the many” may be saved - NOT ALL, many.
Marv

 

[steve_b]

I have a question about hell. I remember in high school (I went to a Catholic High School) learning about sin, mortal and venial. Things like masturbation, premarital sex, missing mass, all being mortal sins. If you do just one of these things, you can end up going to Hell.

Just for clarification, if one dies in mortal sin, they won’t go to heaven.
RR:

I have a problem with the concept of Hell. I can think of plenty of people that I don’t like. I can’t think of anybody that I want to see rot in Hell for all eternity, and God is far more forgiving, merciful, and loving than I will ever be. If this is the case, why does it seem so hard to get into heaven?

stating it in a simplistic human way, Heaven wouldn’t be heaven if people in heaven were no different / better in heaven, than what they are like here in this life.

Theologically speaking, why would Jesus go through what He did for us, if the bar He set for us, was not to be set high?

 

[steve_b]

OK. Here is my case in point. Suppose you have a person who is overall a good person, lives a clean life, helps others, and the worst thing that person has ever done is have premarital sex or missed mass a few times, but overall a good person. If that person dies, do you honestly think that person deserves to rot in hell for all eternity? I would say maybe a stint in purgatory at worst.

we have a ton of things we can do without prohibition. However God tells us to specifically avoid certain sins you mention because if we die in those sins we will be separated from God for all eternity. The warnings are there.

• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, ……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass on Sunday deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.

people who live in mortal sin and die in mortal sin, aren’t by definition, living a “clean” life, and they really aren’t “good” people either. They also show they aren’t afraid of warnings or consequences from God. That means they also have faith issues.

When you ask the question “If that person dies, do you honestly think that person deserves to rot in hell for all eternity?”

The answer is in Eph 5:3-5 and Heb 10:25-26, if they die in mortal sin they won’t inherit heaven.

 

[mikekle]

RRusso1982. Concerning your point in post number 14:

You cannot “earn” your way to Heaven by being what you think is a basically "a good person”. It is NOT good enough. All of our “faith”, “hope” and “charity” (sometimes translated as “love”) MUST be supernaturalized by the Holy Spirit in GRACE otherwise it is in vain.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

NOBODY deserves to go to Heaven to be with God.

.

So, if a person lives a good life while alive, helps others, donates money to help, volunteers when needed, etc, BUT is not a religious person and basically chooses to live life they way they see fit…

if what you say is accurate, then this person is no better than a run of the mill criminal, who only cares about themselves and what they can get, or better yet, this person is placed in the same category as Satan and the other fallen angels, and they both end up in the same place…what kind of logic is this LOL?

I think if this were entirely accurate, we would have alot more people committing crimes in this world, maybe if they knew no matter how good a person they are, but if they are not religious and have God in their life, it is all for nothing and they could have lived there life as a bank robber and ended up looking the same in Gods eyes lol

In our society there is a general sense of what is right and wrong, thats why we dont have a majority of people going out and killing others, robbing banks, stealing everything they can, etc. but the more I think about it, if they truly knew what God thought of them, I think our society would be crime ridden to an extreme never before seen, If you are not a religious person, then why even try to be a good person?

 

[Michael19682]

So, if a person lives a good life while alive, helps others, donates money to help, volunteers when needed, etc, BUT is not a religious person and basically chooses to live life they way they see fit…

if what you say is accurate, then this person is no better than a run of the mill criminal, who only cares about themselves and what they can get, or better yet, this person is placed in the same category as Satan and the other fallen angels, and they both end up in the same place…what kind of logic is this LOL?

I think if this were entirely accurate, we would have alot more people committing crimes in this world, maybe if they knew no matter how good a person they are, but if they are not religious and have God in their life, it is all for nothing and they could have lived there life as a bank robber and ended up looking the same in Gods eyes lol

In our society there is a general sense of what is right and wrong, thats why we dont have a majority of people going out and killing others, robbing banks, stealing everything they can, etc. but the more I think about it, if they truly knew what God thought of them, I think our society would be crime ridden to an extreme never before seen, If you are not a religious person, then why even try to be a good person?

Isn’t the promise of Jesus that each is in the end judged according to his deeds? If your right hand says smack the fool, but you give him needed necessities: Personally you should get some credit, don’t you think – especially if you can make that habit of holy action? The point for me is not that you can’t earn the gift that was already freely given, but that refusing the gift might be preceded in some way by non recognition of the gift, ie never having been shown adequate love by another person, to the end that one has faith in one’s good actions, ie they produce good effects. That’s Paul’s point about love? and also gets to the matter that even if a person despises his good acts, yet does them obediently and out of faith (even a hard hearted faith) in the law of charity and love work good – then he might be miserable on earth, but would go to heaven like that Centaurion
Cornelius, to whom faith in faith was credited as faith greater than in all of Israel.

 

[WalterM]

Have any of you read Benedict XVI’s Spe Salvi? He has a brilliant description of the afterlife in terms of the situations that guarantee God’s justice. The bottom line is that of personal choice as many of you re saying. Imagine someone arriving the other side of death. They are a “separated soul” which is a difficult reality to see. But their mind and will are filled with the “sight” or “intuition” of God. Then they can only say one of three things. Either:Wow Lord you are really fantastic, I have been seeking you all through my life. Or else, Wow Lord you are all beautiful, and I still detect a few spots of pride and vanity lingering in my soul. Where is this Purgatory place so I can do a clean up job to be worthy to be in our presence, to become the kind of person You want me to be! And finally there is the third awful possibility. Well Hello God. I have been dodging You all my life, and I have not the slightest interest in being in your Presence now. I am heading for the Dark Domain.
The conclusion is that we have to try and purify ourselves here in this life, apparently it is easier than in Purgatory. And we have to persuade people to try and go to Confession more frequently so that they can work their way towards being the kind of Person God wants in heaven.
Walter.

 

[Contarini]

So, if a person lives a good life while alive, helps others, donates money to help, volunteers when needed, etc, BUT is not a religious person and basically chooses to live life they way they see fit…

if what you say is accurate, then this person is no better than a run of the mill criminal, who only cares about themselves and what they can get, or better yet, this person is placed in the same category as Satan and the other fallen angels, and they both end up in the same place…what kind of logic is this LOL?

Logic following from the premise that there is a God who is loving and merciful and offers forgiveness to “run of the mill criminals.”

People do not go to hell for “not being religious.” If a person is “not religious” because the truth and goodness they have encountered (i.e., God as they have known Him) have not led them in the direction of Christianity or some other religion, then that wouldn’t cause them to go to hell. And one thing is clear: religious people–devout, orthodox Christians–are in more danger of hell than anyone else. So I think your picture is a bit wrong. But certainly the Church teaches that it’s possible to do lots of “good works” in an external sense and go to hell, if those “good works” stem from pride or a desire to be socially respectable or something like that.

What saves is faith formed by love. Good works not motivated by love are worthless.

I think if this were entirely accurate, we would have alot more people committing crimes in this world, maybe if they knew no matter how good a person they are, but if they are not religious and have God in their life, it is all for nothing and they could have lived there life as a bank robber and ended up looking the same in Gods eyes lol

The purpose of the Gospel is not to keep people from committing crimes. The Gospel does that, of course. But that’s not the standard by which a version of Christianity should be judged.

On the other hand, doing something against charity always drives you farther from God, whether that’s robbing a bank or sneering in your heart that those “run of the mill criminals” who seem inferior to you.

In our society there is a general sense of what is right and wrong, thats why we dont have a majority of people going out and killing others, robbing banks, stealing everything they can, etc. but the more I think about it, if they truly knew what God thought of them, I think our society would be crime ridden to an extreme never before seen, If you are not a religious person, then why even try to be a good person?

It’s not about being “religious” per se. You can be extremely religious and go to hell, and if you believe in good faith that no religion is true, then you may be following God most sincerely by being an atheist. (Of course, we Christians think that this belief is wrong and that if you are acting in good faith you are likely, depending on circumstances, to come to realize this.)

But it’s true that mere social respectability and following society’s rules does not have much spiritual value by orthodox Christian standards. Christian faith offers hope to prostitutes and criminals, and it stands in judgment on the moral and respectable who think that they can earn God’s favor.

Edwin