I have read Fr Martin's book Building A Bridge: Q 1: why need for gay community?

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Dr Martin writes as if he accepts a separate community for LGTB people, but I am confused about the need for such a community as it appears to be constituted now.

If a person has homosexual temptations, that is a cross, not a talent or something.

Most of our “communities” revolve around a shared interest or activity. But sexual temptation is something the saints tell us to avoid and not test.

There are groups for people who commit what are objectively sins, but these are support groups to help people stay away from sin. We don’t have adulterers pride parades, for example, but we do have Sex Addicts Anonymous (or something like that).

I am asking in a nice tone of voice; I hope I haven’t put this badly. I am more interested in the philosophical reasoning for this than a lot of arguing or people just saying it’s wrong for them to without an accompanying reason.

Also, I have some other questions as well, which I will ask from time to time rather than all at once.

I should add that I was pleasantly surprised overall by the book and amazed at how hard he seemed on the LGBT people and how they need to respect the Church.
 
First of all, most gay people do not consider their sexuality a sin or a cross or inferior in any way, so if you approach it from their viewpoint, the reasons are much easier to understand.

As with other minority communities, the main reasons are:

Safety and self-preservation;

Intensifying relations, communication and contact with like-minded individuals, not least of which is finding potential mates, friends and allies;

Unified and coordinated political action to secure their rights;

Preservation and transmission of a common culture and history;

Mutual aid in many areas including education, health, religion, legal issues, economic matters, etc;
Relations with other groups, the public at large and the state; and

Fulfilling a whole host of needs specific to the particular community.

Much like immigrant groups like the Jewish, Italians or Polish immigrant communities a century ago, for example.

If you view it like that, it is rather easy to understand why a distinct community (or group of interrelated communities) formed.
 
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Some LBGTQ people view themselves as a community with common issues and interests. Others have told me that homosexuality does not define them so they do not accept the gay label.
 
I like Father Martin’s humour . I remember a time when , without misunderstanding , I could have called it gay humour . 😄 ( Americans please note I have spelled humour correctly , but the video has not 😒 ).

 
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As St. Augustine discussed so well (in The City of God"), there are two “cities” on earth, inhabited by men: the City of God, and the city of man. In the one, its citizens seek God’s truth, and will, and law, and love. In the other, men define and claim their own “truth”, and seek to live their own will, and make up their own “laws”, and seek the love and approval of one another.

These two “cities” - or cultures, or “communities”, or kingdoms, or whatever word best describes the grouping - have existed ever since the Fall, and oppose one another. Both have human members/citizens, and supernatural allies. They have dwelt together exteriorly and do today, but interiorly they are irreconcilable, and mutually exclusive: there really is no compromise between the two: a man will serve either God or Mammon, either light or darkness.

Men still persist in trying to find a “happy medium” or compromise somewhere in the middle between the two: “can’t we all just get along?” But the Lord says “no”: he who does not gather with Me, scatters; it is either God or Mammon - either the only One God who IS, or ultimately the evil one - satan, who wears many many masks and costumes, presenting himself as any number of “good” “human” alternatives to the “unreasonable demands” of old-fashioned Christian Faith.

Beware of misuses of the word “community.” There is, in truth, only ONE true community, and that is the unity, the community, of men in Christ. Men-believers in the city of man use the word “community” in shallow ways, for groups of men joined in superficial commonalities, when in their hearts they are as conflicted and mutually antagonistic as ever. Only in Truth - only in Jesus, in His love - is there unity and peace.
 
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People who have common goals and interest form communities so they can be with people like themselves.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
Some LBGTQ people view themselves as a community with common issues and interests. Others have told me that homosexuality does not define them so they do not accept the gay label.
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People who have same sex attraction are often “outed” against their will by others who insist they be part of that “community” . The problem is that the gay "community " often is a whole package with expectations you must support gay marriage, abortion and other things.
 
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I wasn’t clear that I am wondering about how Catholics or the Church should consider the community of LGTB people. From a Catholic point of view, does this community make sense?

And does it make sense to try to attract “the community,” given that the response to Christ must be individual?
 
how do you think Catholics or the Church should respond to the people who consider themselves part of or supportive of the gay community?
 
Annie said:
how do you think Catholics or the Church should respond to the people who consider themselves part of or supportive of the gay community?
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With respect and love.

Fr. Martin is pointing out that the two approaches that many in the Church have taken have been unproductive, harmful and un-Christian. Those approaches are:
  1. To ignore or deny the fact that such a community exists, or even that gay people exist. This is a very common approach as evidenced by the fact that the statements in response to the Pulse shooting by by far most US bishops pointedly omitted any mention of the LGBT community or LGBT people, to the point that it is hard to interpret them as sincere gestures of sympathy. This is, in fact, the thing that inspired Fr. Martin to write the book.
  2. To demonize, marginalize or stigmatize the community and the people it comprises, often with considerable vitriol.
Fr. Martin is saying that neither of those approaches is going to foster dialog and mutual respect, and will only serve to drive LGBT and their supporters away from the Church and Christ.

Listening to and understanding the needs of the community and the individuals in it is a necessary first step in establishing a non-antagonistic relationship that allows for real evangelism or, at least, coexistence.
 
I too read Building A Bridge, and most people misunderstand Fr Martin’s agenda.

They think he’s pushing the Church to accept homosexual acts, he’s not.

Also, his chapter on respect, he did come down hard on the LGBTQ groups for their disrespect for the leaders of the Catholic Church.

He also wrote about what the parents of gay children have to deal with, when they’re devote Catholics, and the members of their Church reject their children. I know such people and it’s not easy for them.

In the end, Fr Martin’s goal is to bring understanding to both sides and to stop the stone throwing, which we have to admit, gay people have suffered from society which was often fueled by Christian rhetoric against them.

Jim
 
Your comment made me think of a question that has never occurred to me in the past.

There are subgroups of humans as countless as grains of sand on the beach. I am sure that many subgroups would like society to recognize them as a separate class or tribe. What is it specifically about sexual orientation/gender in general that would give rise to it forming communities that society itself recognizes and affords special rights and privileges?

Is it a matter of the sexual orientation/gender subgroup having superior lobbyists who tell a better story, (their voices rise above others) or is there some special unique quality that the members of the group share that cause society to view them differently than the red hair club, the vegetarian club or the monogamous club?
 
What is off base with it? Off the top of my head, hate crimes alone are special rights and privileges.

I asked the original question, because I wanted to understand from a sociologist why some groupings are deemed more valued than others. Is there something special about the sexual orientation/gender community that causes society to view it differently than the other million communities that could be recognized. I’d like you to explain further than you did with your first comment that started off the discussion.
 
Or did I ask a question that can’t be answered. (I doubt that. There must be 50 different opinions on it.)
 
Annie said:
how do you think Catholics or the Church should respond to the people who consider themselves part of or supportive of the gay community?
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There is no way for the church to make that distinction, and even if it could, there is no way for the church to understand what membership in such a community mean in terms of motivation. Why would you think the church should know of such things out of curiosity?

As far as being supportive, once again, what does that mean? There are many way to be supportive, and there are many motivations why one would want to be supportive. Praying is being supportive.

There are of course political activists that cross purposes with the church in the form of scandal, is that what you are driving at?
 
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I see no need for anything like this. We do not need this. Now, to clarify, I mean only me, and only my parish. There really isn’t anything like a gay community here, that is either persecuted or militant. Therefore, our best model is to treat with them individually, kind of like we do every other homo sapiens. There are other groups that we do have to tailor special outreach to, like the immigrant. We also have active AA programs.

Now in a community where there is some sort of active, militant, or persecuted community, then I might see where some sort of outreach would be in order. Fr. Martin deals with this stuff a lot more than I, so I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, at least in some situations.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I too read Building A Bridge, and most people misunderstand Fr Martin’s agenda.

They think he’s pushing the Church to accept homosexual acts, he’s not.

Also, his chapter on respect, he did come down hard on the LGBTQ groups for their disrespect for the leaders of the Catholic Church.

He also wrote about what the parents of gay children have to deal with, when they’re devote Catholics, and the members of their Church reject their children. I know such people and it’s not easy for them.

In the end, Fr Martin’s goal is to bring understanding to both sides and to stop the stone throwing, which we have to admit, gay people have suffered from society which was often fueled by Christian rhetoric against them.

Jim
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I have not yet read the book, but from what I understand, the problem isn’t really the book. It’s what he actually says and what he doesn’t say in public and esp on Twitter.
  1. Fr. Martin never mentions Courage, a faithful Catholic apostate for people who experience same sex attraction.
  2. Fr. Martin endorses (or at least has endorsed) “New Ways Ministry” which has been shot down by the bishops.
  3. On Twitter, Fr. Martin often types many “us vs them” statements instead of working to find a loving way to bring everyone together. Instead, he constantly says he’s right and everyone who doesn’t agree with him is wrong.
  4. Fr. Martin engages in anti-Republican politics online. Considering that (arguably) most Catholic who attend mass every day and ever Sunday, politically lean right, he’s upsetting many regular Church attendees.
Instead, Fr. Martin should be looking to Fr. Mike regarding how to properly reach out to ALL CATHOLICS regarding this issue.

 
JimR-OCDS said:
Typical response from someone who hasn’t read the book. 😉

Jim
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Yes… Perhaps so. But my issue isn’t with what he says in the book. My issue is what he’s been saying / doing on Twitter, etc.

Fr. Martin is like Trump in a way. Constantly sending Tweets that drive people insane.

Trump’s tweets make people hate him. And Fr. Martin’s tweets make people hate him too.
 
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