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Xantippe
Guest
MJJean,
I agree with everything you said.
I agree with everything you said.
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moon1234
Guest
This is just an observation, but you should NEVER buy things on credit. ALL of these problems are due to incurred debts to others.
It may sound cliché, but if you get yourself out of debt and only pay for things with available cash, you will BOTH be a much happier couple. CUT all of the credit cards up. YOU take the checkbook and give him only cash. Remove access to the “Joint” checking account. If he MUST have checks, open a 2nd checking account into which you will deposit money.
Once you no longer have debts, then almost all of these money issues will no longer loom over your head. Then you can make headway on the real problems in your marriage, which are NOT financial, but communication. If you don’t talk to each other then things will just keep getting worse.
You are also feeling MANY of the same stresses that MEN feel in their traditional family role. MANY men lie awake at night worrying if there is going to be enough money, debt, etc.
Use the Bankruptcy to get rid of as much debt as possible. DO NOT turn unsecured loans (credit cards, etc.) into secured loans. That is CRAZY. What state do you live in? I live in a marital property state and it is not possible to sever the debt from one spouse incurred by another. If you are married you both own the debt, does not matter who files for bankruptcy.
It may sound cliché, but if you get yourself out of debt and only pay for things with available cash, you will BOTH be a much happier couple. CUT all of the credit cards up. YOU take the checkbook and give him only cash. Remove access to the “Joint” checking account. If he MUST have checks, open a 2nd checking account into which you will deposit money.
Once you no longer have debts, then almost all of these money issues will no longer loom over your head. Then you can make headway on the real problems in your marriage, which are NOT financial, but communication. If you don’t talk to each other then things will just keep getting worse.
You are also feeling MANY of the same stresses that MEN feel in their traditional family role. MANY men lie awake at night worrying if there is going to be enough money, debt, etc.
Use the Bankruptcy to get rid of as much debt as possible. DO NOT turn unsecured loans (credit cards, etc.) into secured loans. That is CRAZY. What state do you live in? I live in a marital property state and it is not possible to sever the debt from one spouse incurred by another. If you are married you both own the debt, does not matter who files for bankruptcy.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
If you want to work all these hours and have him stay at home, that is fine. If you are overwhelmed by the number of hours you have to put in, not fine.I can’t get the lease … I’m in bankruptcy. My mom won’t co sign. The only way is if he did if since his credit is fine.
I mean… I am trapped in this lease. I tried suggesting the move and he wouldn’t do it because the place I found was too far from our son’s school.
Then he will say… Fine I’ll just get a job at 40k and then we will pay the same amount as I make after taxes… For child care. And he’s about right unfortunately.
The situation is not much different for you than if it was the husband working and the wife staying at home: either they live on what one can bring home in the number of hours that doesn’t overwhelm the paid worker, or both of them get jobs. You can’t work one spouse into the ground just because the one earns a higher hourly wage. One goose only has so many golden eggs in her.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
You shouldn’t hate to admit that you are getting resentful. Of course you are. Some people can juggle two jobs, but sometimes more than one full-time job is too much. Tell you husband the clock has run out on his business dream, because he has not done thing number one, part a, section i on it–nothing! He can either choose to live on what you make with one job or else get a job himself, because you are not going to kill yourself while your son grows up sight unseen any more.It has hit me that i would probably not get custody of my son because of my work schedule. I am required to work until 8:30pm. I am off of my “day job” only before noon while my son is in school. So, I can imagine my husband would get him most of the time.
It kills me to think that would be my fate. My son is everything to me, and it’s why I have stayed this long. But, you see… That it’s not exactly helping me in the long run. Not much would really change other than I would sleep elsewhere… I rarely see our son as it is.
This is hard. And I am getting resentful. I hate to admit it… But I am.
Your son needs you, too, not just your husband, and he’s not getting you.
X
Xantippe
Guest
EasterJoy said:
“Your son needs you, too, not just your husband, and he’s not getting you”
Right.
“Your son needs you, too, not just your husband, and he’s not getting you”
Right.
G
Gullveig
Guest
It sounds like you need to consult a lawyer and an accountant, if you haven’t already. They might be able to help you figure out a solution.
Also, I know, co-dependency and everything and it’s hard, but for your own sanity you really need to do the hard thing and put your foot down. Your husband seems like he’s more concerned about himself than he is about you, and that is just not okay. If he won’t take steps to fix that, then you need to separate. It’s not going to do your son any favors in the long-run if his mother is a burned out wreck and his father is too lazy and afraid to get back in the job market. You need to explore your options with a lawyer, in case your husband doesn’t get his act together. I would, quite frankly, insist that your husband file bankruptcy right along with you, if possible, since one of the issues is him not being protected under bankruptcy. I know you want to protect him, but he seems to have no interest in protecting or helping you and that is just awful.
Also, I know, co-dependency and everything and it’s hard, but for your own sanity you really need to do the hard thing and put your foot down. Your husband seems like he’s more concerned about himself than he is about you, and that is just not okay. If he won’t take steps to fix that, then you need to separate. It’s not going to do your son any favors in the long-run if his mother is a burned out wreck and his father is too lazy and afraid to get back in the job market. You need to explore your options with a lawyer, in case your husband doesn’t get his act together. I would, quite frankly, insist that your husband file bankruptcy right along with you, if possible, since one of the issues is him not being protected under bankruptcy. I know you want to protect him, but he seems to have no interest in protecting or helping you and that is just awful.
M
mega1
Guest
I tend to think this will end in separation/divorce. He’s going to be so cold and abrasive about this…he will NOT do any of the things suggested.
He gets freelance jobs…and can make 4k in a month…but the problem is he’s just waiting for them to come to HIM. He wants me to do all the marketing and networking FOR HIM.
The freelance work he has now will hold us through this month…but as I mentioned to him, what about next month? He said “oh something will come along”…
But, here’s the disconnect for me. I don’t want just enough money to survive. I want enough money to live and save…and repay my 401k that I began cashing out…
He seems to have no urgency for that. BTW…to answer another poster…my son is not in private school right now. He’s in public.
To be honest…I desperately wish I could move on…and find someone who would treat ME the way I treat and provide FOR HIM. I know that sounds terrible…but I’ve worked so hard all my life…and it’s gotten me bankrupt…nothing to show for it.
A few years ago …he even said he was buying me jewelry (after in therapy I said he never gives me anything or does anything for me)… So he got me to the store and told me to pick between 2 pieces. He was so happy to give this to me. When I picked …he told me I would need to open a credit application because I chose the more expensive one.
He hasn’t done THAT …but that’s how he acts toward me…
He gets freelance jobs…and can make 4k in a month…but the problem is he’s just waiting for them to come to HIM. He wants me to do all the marketing and networking FOR HIM.
The freelance work he has now will hold us through this month…but as I mentioned to him, what about next month? He said “oh something will come along”…
But, here’s the disconnect for me. I don’t want just enough money to survive. I want enough money to live and save…and repay my 401k that I began cashing out…
He seems to have no urgency for that. BTW…to answer another poster…my son is not in private school right now. He’s in public.
To be honest…I desperately wish I could move on…and find someone who would treat ME the way I treat and provide FOR HIM. I know that sounds terrible…but I’ve worked so hard all my life…and it’s gotten me bankrupt…nothing to show for it.
A few years ago …he even said he was buying me jewelry (after in therapy I said he never gives me anything or does anything for me)… So he got me to the store and told me to pick between 2 pieces. He was so happy to give this to me. When I picked …he told me I would need to open a credit application because I chose the more expensive one.
He hasn’t done THAT …but that’s how he acts toward me…
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Unless you’ve done it already, grab that bankruptcy attorney for a few minutes and ask some questions about all of this. You’re guessing and going on what your husband says. You need to* know* what the legal repercussions are for the things you’re either doing or not doing. You can’t change the past, but my sense is that you have some options immediately before you that could make a huge difference in your future, married or not. Never assume you know what the law is for your situation, because the law and what “makes sense” are not the same thing. Find out where the sink holes are. (If you have the law on your side, your husband may act very differently, too. It never hurt any of us, when faced with temptation, to find that self-interest is all of a sudden on the same side as “doing the right thing.”)I tend to think this will end in separation/divorce. He’s going to be so cold and abrasive about this…he will NOT do any of the things suggested.
He gets freelance jobs…and can make 4k in a month…but the problem is he’s just waiting for them to come to HIM. He wants me to do all the marketing and networking FOR HIM.
The freelance work he has now will hold us through this month…but as I mentioned to him, what about next month? He said “oh something will come along”…
But, here’s the disconnect for me. I don’t want just enough money to survive. I want enough money to live and save…and repay my 401k that I began cashing out…
He seems to have no urgency for that. BTW…to answer another poster…my son is not in private school right now. He’s in public.
To be honest…I desperately wish I could move on…and find someone who would treat ME the way I treat and provide FOR HIM. I know that sounds terrible…but I’ve worked so hard all my life…and it’s gotten me bankrupt…nothing to show for it.
A few years ago …he even said he was buying me jewelry (after in therapy I said he never gives me anything or does anything for me)… So he got me to the store and told me to pick between 2 pieces. He was so happy to give this to me. When I picked …he told me I would need to open a credit application because I chose the more expensive one.
He hasn’t done THAT …but that’s how he acts toward me…
M
mega1
Guest
I am in a situation now because of the last bankruptcy hearing not going well…where I have to start with a new attorney in our new state. It’s a big mess. I do need to hire another attorney here…but I am waiting for my next hearing in October…to see if things end as badly as expected with that case.
The other thing is my husband can’t take pressure. He has been charge of our son’s school stuff …since I’m an enabler the therapist told us awhile back that I needed to delegate more and try to trust him.
This is a good example of why that doesn’t work. Our son has a medical condition…in an emergency he needs medication. The school nurse called me a couple of weeks ago and told me that the medication was not in her possession. So I asked my husband. He made apt for son to get meds and gave me the RX to drop off. I did so… Then, the nurse told me that there was no consent form on file…in the office. I said…my husband said he filled that out. SHe said no. So I called my husband and he said that he would do it…that there “must be more”. That was over 2 weeks ago. This week the nurse called me to tell me she still didn’t have the paperwork. She yelled at me…and said that it was irresponsible parenting because she can’t help him in an emergency. I called my husband. He said he would take it to the doctor to get signed later in the week. Well, the doctor still hasn’t gotten it to the nurse and now he just called me at WORK to complain about how the nurse ordered him to take the medication off the grounds…until he could get his paperwork completed. That she didn’t want there to be any belief on our part that she could use it without the doctor’s consent forms.
When I tried to explain that to him and that she was just trying to make a point…he basically hung up on me. I told him I was at work…
So…that gives you a little idea of what happens when he gets cornered…
The other thing is my husband can’t take pressure. He has been charge of our son’s school stuff …since I’m an enabler the therapist told us awhile back that I needed to delegate more and try to trust him.
This is a good example of why that doesn’t work. Our son has a medical condition…in an emergency he needs medication. The school nurse called me a couple of weeks ago and told me that the medication was not in her possession. So I asked my husband. He made apt for son to get meds and gave me the RX to drop off. I did so… Then, the nurse told me that there was no consent form on file…in the office. I said…my husband said he filled that out. SHe said no. So I called my husband and he said that he would do it…that there “must be more”. That was over 2 weeks ago. This week the nurse called me to tell me she still didn’t have the paperwork. She yelled at me…and said that it was irresponsible parenting because she can’t help him in an emergency. I called my husband. He said he would take it to the doctor to get signed later in the week. Well, the doctor still hasn’t gotten it to the nurse and now he just called me at WORK to complain about how the nurse ordered him to take the medication off the grounds…until he could get his paperwork completed. That she didn’t want there to be any belief on our part that she could use it without the doctor’s consent forms.
When I tried to explain that to him and that she was just trying to make a point…he basically hung up on me. I told him I was at work…
So…that gives you a little idea of what happens when he gets cornered…
X
Xantippe
Guest
mega1 said:
“He gets freelance jobs…and can make 4k in a month…but the problem is he’s just waiting for them to come to HIM. He wants me to do all the marketing and networking FOR HIM.”
Nope–don’t do it.
It’s an awful thing to have to say, but you have to ask yourself, if I knew we were getting divorced in the next year or two, would I do this thing? In this particular case, should you go out on a limb to hustle up business for him, when that could damage your reputation if/when he screws up? You would probably not be recommending him purely on his professional merits. (If you would, carry on.)
“But, here’s the disconnect for me. I don’t want just enough money to survive. I want enough money to live and save…and repay my 401k that I began cashing out…”
And rightly so. Don’t take any more money out of that account. Unless it’s to save somebody’s life, don’t touch it.
“He seems to have no urgency for that. BTW…to answer another poster…my son is not in private school right now. He’s in public.”
Good.
“but I’ve worked so hard all my life…and it’s gotten me bankrupt…nothing to show for it.”
There are people who work a lot less than you and make less who are more financially secure.
Take Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University.
daveramsey.com/fpu/preview/
EasterJoy said:
“You’re guessing and going on what your husband says. You need to know what the legal repercussions are for the things you’re either doing or not doing.”
Right.
Ever notice that your husband has a million reasons why you guys shouldn’t do the stuff that he doesn’t want you to do?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
“He gets freelance jobs…and can make 4k in a month…but the problem is he’s just waiting for them to come to HIM. He wants me to do all the marketing and networking FOR HIM.”
Nope–don’t do it.
It’s an awful thing to have to say, but you have to ask yourself, if I knew we were getting divorced in the next year or two, would I do this thing? In this particular case, should you go out on a limb to hustle up business for him, when that could damage your reputation if/when he screws up? You would probably not be recommending him purely on his professional merits. (If you would, carry on.)
“But, here’s the disconnect for me. I don’t want just enough money to survive. I want enough money to live and save…and repay my 401k that I began cashing out…”
And rightly so. Don’t take any more money out of that account. Unless it’s to save somebody’s life, don’t touch it.
“He seems to have no urgency for that. BTW…to answer another poster…my son is not in private school right now. He’s in public.”
Good.
“but I’ve worked so hard all my life…and it’s gotten me bankrupt…nothing to show for it.”
There are people who work a lot less than you and make less who are more financially secure.
Take Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University.
daveramsey.com/fpu/preview/
EasterJoy said:
“You’re guessing and going on what your husband says. You need to know what the legal repercussions are for the things you’re either doing or not doing.”
Right.
Ever notice that your husband has a million reasons why you guys shouldn’t do the stuff that he doesn’t want you to do?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
X
Xantippe
Guest
mega1 said:
“but I am waiting for my next hearing in October…to see if things end as badly as expected with that case.”
Bankruptcy isn’t really much of an out for high-earners like yourself.
About the school story–there are 16-year-olds who would have handled that better.
“but I am waiting for my next hearing in October…to see if things end as badly as expected with that case.”
Bankruptcy isn’t really much of an out for high-earners like yourself.
About the school story–there are 16-year-olds who would have handled that better.
M
mega1
Guest
Yes…you are right. It’s very true. but even though I make more than most…the finances are probably worse than the majority in a MAJOR way.
Also…in addition to the school story…he just followed up with a text…complaining that AT &T wouldn’t give him a new cell phone because it’s my account and I’m not with him…
AND…when he went outside to the car…a dump truck had parked behind him. He says it’s one of the worst days ever…
Lovely, right?
Also…in addition to the school story…he just followed up with a text…complaining that AT &T wouldn’t give him a new cell phone because it’s my account and I’m not with him…
AND…when he went outside to the car…a dump truck had parked behind him. He says it’s one of the worst days ever…
Lovely, right?
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Do not bring anything up with him today, because he may be (whether knowingly or not) pining for a drama. In that little drama, you would be cast as the antagonist, because he is the playwright, producer, and casting director. If he wants to stage a pity party, let it be a one-man show. The run will be shorter that way.Yes…you are right. It’s very true. but even though I make more than most…the finances are probably worse than the majority in a MAJOR way.
Also…in addition to the school story…he just followed up with a text…complaining that AT &T wouldn’t give him a new cell phone because it’s my account and I’m not with him…
AND…when he went outside to the car…a dump truck had parked behind him. He says it’s one of the worst days ever…
Lovely, right?
Abraham Lincoln went bust early in his life, too, and it wasn’t for lack of integrity or the willingness to work hard.
cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/11/19/mf.successful.people.survived.bankruptcy/
Is yours more of a Burt Reynold’s bankruptcy? Oh, well. If it is water under the bridge, let it go. Learn about money and don’t let it happen again. The best financial book I know is Jane Bryant Quinn, but Suzy Orman is good from the “emotional” standpoint. (And Suzie Orman went broke, once, too! biography.com/people/suze-orman-524060)
S
styrgwillidar
Guest
You need to sit down and determine your priorities, such as:
Next you need to sit down with your husband and explain your priorities and hear his. I’m tempted to tell you to drag him into the bankruptcy with you. But honestly, that may not be in your best interest- PROVIDED you and your husband agree on how his having good credit will support your mutual goals.
Your mutual plan may be some compromise over your personal objectives, however, you need to understand your must haves. For example, you will reduce your hours to have some time with your son while he’s still young. Even if this means a reduced standard of living and less future security. If husband is unhappy with that-- what’s his solution?
- Health (mental and physical)
- Quality of life in terms of time with your son/husband
- Standard of living in terms of type of house/car/neighborhood
- Future Security (i.e. 401K / retirement funding)
- Financial Stability (living within your means)
- Your marriage quality
- Your vows/word (keeping ones vows doesn’t ensure a good marriage, just that you’ll keep your commitment. It takes two to make a good marriage.)
Next you need to sit down with your husband and explain your priorities and hear his. I’m tempted to tell you to drag him into the bankruptcy with you. But honestly, that may not be in your best interest- PROVIDED you and your husband agree on how his having good credit will support your mutual goals.
Your mutual plan may be some compromise over your personal objectives, however, you need to understand your must haves. For example, you will reduce your hours to have some time with your son while he’s still young. Even if this means a reduced standard of living and less future security. If husband is unhappy with that-- what’s his solution?
E
EasterJoy
Guest
OK, so he’s getting a failing grade as a SAH dad, too. Your son is in grade school…are you sure they don’t have reasonably-priced aftercare at the school? Many schools do, and it is offered on an as-needed basis. There is no way that expense will exceed the income from a full-time job.I am in a situation now because of the last bankruptcy hearing not going well…where I have to start with a new attorney in our new state. It’s a big mess. I do need to hire another attorney here…but I am waiting for my next hearing in October…to see if things end as badly as expected with that case.
The other thing is my husband can’t take pressure. He has been charge of our son’s school stuff …since I’m an enabler the therapist told us awhile back that I needed to delegate more and try to trust him.
This is a good example of why that doesn’t work. Our son has a medical condition…in an emergency he needs medication. The school nurse called me a couple of weeks ago and told me that the medication was not in her possession. So I asked my husband. He made apt for son to get meds and gave me the RX to drop off. I did so… Then, the nurse told me that there was no consent form on file…in the office. I said…my husband said he filled that out. SHe said no. So I called my husband and he said that he would do it…that there “must be more”. That was over 2 weeks ago. This week the nurse called me to tell me she still didn’t have the paperwork. She yelled at me…and said that it was irresponsible parenting because she can’t help him in an emergency. I called my husband. He said he would take it to the doctor to get signed later in the week. Well, the doctor still hasn’t gotten it to the nurse and now he just called me at WORK to complain about how the nurse ordered him to take the medication off the grounds…until he could get his paperwork completed. That she didn’t want there to be any belief on our part that she could use it without the doctor’s consent forms.
When I tried to explain that to him and that she was just trying to make a point…he basically hung up on me. I told him I was at work…
So…that gives you a little idea of what happens when he gets cornered…
Whatever you do, though, do not spend your time on his business and certainly don’t let him spend any money on it that he didn’t earn himself. I hope you just have a guy who’s going through a bad bout of self-doubt, but another book you can check out is “The Sociopath Next Door”. Whether or not your husband is a sociopath (some experts say that as many as 5% of the US population lacks a working emotional conscience), the book is an eye-opener with regards to how manipulative personalities work. As the author, Martha Stout, put it, by the way, one of the best clues that you may be dealing with someone who has an impaired or absence conscience is the pity play:
“…the best clue is, of all things, the pity play. The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy…More than admiration–more even than fear–pity from good people is carte blanche. When we pity, we are, at least for the moment, defenseless…”
E
EasterJoy
Guest
*The Sociopath Next Door *by Martha Stout is carried in many libraries. Here are a few pearls:
How do you spot a sociopath?
A sociopath has no conscience, no ability to feel shame, guilt or remorse. Since 1 in 25 ordinary Americans is a sociopath, you almost certainly know one or more than one already. How can you recognize him or her?
•Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they live only to dominate others and win.
•They have a kind of glow or charisma that makes them more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They are more spontaneous, more intense, complex, or even sexier than everyone else.
•They crave stimulation and excitement, often showing brief intense enthusiasms that they later drop.
•They are seductive, encouraging others to take risks.
•They will tell you that you are just like them. Don’t believe it.
IOW, not every bad husband or lazy co-worker is a sociopath. Some people have ADD and they get a lot of big ideas and then don’t follow through when there is no outside structure to get them to do it. Those people are not sociopaths. So why bring it up at all? Because the difference between what a sociopath says and what they do is so great that it is very dangerous for a person with a normal conscience to have one in his or her life without being aware of it. Sociopaths do not run according to the same rules as everyone else, making them unpredictable. They tend to be cunning, manipulative, and spiteful. They use erosion of the self-esteem of others in order to control those others. They are not people you can approach just like anyone else without losing a hand in the process, because they will bite any hand that feeds them when it suits their purpose. They can act warm and fuzzy, but they have the consciences of a reptile.
Thirteen Rules for Dealing with Sociopaths in Everyday Life
1.The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience, and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson or a Ferengi bartender. They look like us.
2.In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on – educator, doctor, leader, animal-lover, humanist, parent – go with your instincts.
Whether you want to be or not, you are a constant observer of human behavior, and your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them. Your best self understands, without being told, that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone who did not have it to begin with.
3.When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has.
Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you’re dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.
Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.
4.Question authority.
Once again – trust your own instincts and anxieties, especially those concerning people who claim that dominating others, violence, war, or some other violation of your conscience is the grand solution to some problem. Do this even when, or especially when, everyone around you has completely stopped questioning authority. Recite to yourself what Stanley Milgram taught us about obedience. (At least six out of ten people will blindly obey a present, official-looking authority to the bitter end.) The good news is that having social support makes people somewhat more likely to challenge authority. Encourage those around you to question, too.
5.Suspect flattery.
Compliments are lovely, especially when they are sincere. In contrast, flattery is extreme, and appeals to our egos in unrealistic ways. It is the material of counterfeit charm, and nearly always involves an intent to manipulate. Manipulation through flattery is sometimes innocuous and sometimes sinister. Peek over your massaged ego and remember to suspect flattery. This “flattery rule” applies on an individual basis, and also at the level of groups and even whole nations. Throughout all of human history and to the present, the call to war has included the flattering claim that one’s own forces are about to accomplish a victory that will change the world for the better, a triumph that is morally laudable, justified by its humane outcome, unique in human endeavor, righteous, and worthy of enormous gratitude. Since we began to record the human story, all of our major wars have been framed in this way, on all sides of the conflict, and in all languages the adjective most often applied to the word war is the word holy. An argument can easily be made that humanity will have peace when nations of people are at last able to see through this masterful flattery.
How do you spot a sociopath?
A sociopath has no conscience, no ability to feel shame, guilt or remorse. Since 1 in 25 ordinary Americans is a sociopath, you almost certainly know one or more than one already. How can you recognize him or her?
•Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they live only to dominate others and win.
•They have a kind of glow or charisma that makes them more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They are more spontaneous, more intense, complex, or even sexier than everyone else.
•They crave stimulation and excitement, often showing brief intense enthusiasms that they later drop.
•They are seductive, encouraging others to take risks.
•They will tell you that you are just like them. Don’t believe it.
IOW, not every bad husband or lazy co-worker is a sociopath. Some people have ADD and they get a lot of big ideas and then don’t follow through when there is no outside structure to get them to do it. Those people are not sociopaths. So why bring it up at all? Because the difference between what a sociopath says and what they do is so great that it is very dangerous for a person with a normal conscience to have one in his or her life without being aware of it. Sociopaths do not run according to the same rules as everyone else, making them unpredictable. They tend to be cunning, manipulative, and spiteful. They use erosion of the self-esteem of others in order to control those others. They are not people you can approach just like anyone else without losing a hand in the process, because they will bite any hand that feeds them when it suits their purpose. They can act warm and fuzzy, but they have the consciences of a reptile.
Thirteen Rules for Dealing with Sociopaths in Everyday Life
1.The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience, and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson or a Ferengi bartender. They look like us.
2.In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on – educator, doctor, leader, animal-lover, humanist, parent – go with your instincts.
Whether you want to be or not, you are a constant observer of human behavior, and your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them. Your best self understands, without being told, that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone who did not have it to begin with.
3.When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has.
Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you’re dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.
Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.
4.Question authority.
Once again – trust your own instincts and anxieties, especially those concerning people who claim that dominating others, violence, war, or some other violation of your conscience is the grand solution to some problem. Do this even when, or especially when, everyone around you has completely stopped questioning authority. Recite to yourself what Stanley Milgram taught us about obedience. (At least six out of ten people will blindly obey a present, official-looking authority to the bitter end.) The good news is that having social support makes people somewhat more likely to challenge authority. Encourage those around you to question, too.
5.Suspect flattery.
Compliments are lovely, especially when they are sincere. In contrast, flattery is extreme, and appeals to our egos in unrealistic ways. It is the material of counterfeit charm, and nearly always involves an intent to manipulate. Manipulation through flattery is sometimes innocuous and sometimes sinister. Peek over your massaged ego and remember to suspect flattery. This “flattery rule” applies on an individual basis, and also at the level of groups and even whole nations. Throughout all of human history and to the present, the call to war has included the flattering claim that one’s own forces are about to accomplish a victory that will change the world for the better, a triumph that is morally laudable, justified by its humane outcome, unique in human endeavor, righteous, and worthy of enormous gratitude. Since we began to record the human story, all of our major wars have been framed in this way, on all sides of the conflict, and in all languages the adjective most often applied to the word war is the word holy. An argument can easily be made that humanity will have peace when nations of people are at last able to see through this masterful flattery.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
continued…
6.If necessary, redefine your concept of respect.
Too often, we mistake fear for respect, and the more fearful we are of someone, the more we view him or her as deserving of our respect.
I have a spotted Bengal cat who was named Muscle Man by my daughter when she was a toddler, because even as a kitten he looked like a professional wrestler. Grown now, he is much larger than most other domestic cats. His formidable claws resemble those of his Asian leopard-cat ancestors, but by temperament, he is gentle and peace-loving. My neighbor has a little calico who visits. Evidently the calico’s predatory charisma is huge, and she is brilliant at directing the evil eye at other cats. Whenever she is within fifty feet, Muscle Man, all fifteen pounds of him to her seven, cringes and crouches in fear and feline deference.
Muscle Man is a splendid cat. He is warm and loving, and he is close to my heart. Nonetheless, I would like to believe that some of his reactions are more primitive than mine. I hope I do not mistake fear for respect, because to do so would be to ensure my own victimization. Let us use our big human brains to overpower our animal tendency to bow to predators, so we can disentangle the reflexive confusion of anxiety and awe. In a perfect world, human respect would be an automatic reaction only to those who are strong, kind, and morally courageous. The person who profits from frightening you is not likely to be any of these.
The resolve to keep respect separate from fear is even more crucial for groups and nations. The politician, small or lofty, who menaces the people with frequent reminders of the possibility of crime, violence, or terrorism, and who then uses their magnified fear to gain allegiance is more likely to be a successful con artist than a legitimate leader. This too has been true throughout human history.
7.Do not join the game.
Intrigue is a sociopath’s tool. Resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociopath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze, or even banter with him. In addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself.
8.The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.
Psychologists do not usually like to recommend avoidance, but in this case, I make a very deliberate exception. The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous. Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life. You will not hurt anyone’s feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.
You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual. Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain. Avoid hi/her anyway.
If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.
9.Question your tendency to pity too easily.
Respect should be reserved for the kind and the morally courageous. Pity is another socially valuable response, and should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or who have fallen on misfortune. If, instead, you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to one hundred percent that you are dealing with a sociopath.
Related to this – I recommend that you severely challenge your need to be polite in absolutely all situations. For normal adults in our culture, being what we think of as “civilized” is like a reflex, and often we find ourselves being automatically decorous even when someone has enraged us, repeatedly lied to us, or figuratively stabbed us in the back. Sociopaths take huge advantage of this automatic courtesy in exploitive situations.
Do not be afraid to be unsmiling and calmly to the point.
10.Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.
Second (third, fourth, and fifth) chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses.
At some point, most of us need to learn the important if disappointing life lesson that, no matter how good our intentions, we cannot control the behavior-- let alone the character structures-- of other people. Learn this fact of human life, and avoid the irony of getting caught up in the same ambition he has-- to control.
If you do not desire control, but instead want to help people, then help only those who truly want to be helped. I think you will find this does not include the person who has no conscience.
The sociopath’s behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever. It is also not your mission. Your mission is your own life.
6.If necessary, redefine your concept of respect.
Too often, we mistake fear for respect, and the more fearful we are of someone, the more we view him or her as deserving of our respect.
I have a spotted Bengal cat who was named Muscle Man by my daughter when she was a toddler, because even as a kitten he looked like a professional wrestler. Grown now, he is much larger than most other domestic cats. His formidable claws resemble those of his Asian leopard-cat ancestors, but by temperament, he is gentle and peace-loving. My neighbor has a little calico who visits. Evidently the calico’s predatory charisma is huge, and she is brilliant at directing the evil eye at other cats. Whenever she is within fifty feet, Muscle Man, all fifteen pounds of him to her seven, cringes and crouches in fear and feline deference.
Muscle Man is a splendid cat. He is warm and loving, and he is close to my heart. Nonetheless, I would like to believe that some of his reactions are more primitive than mine. I hope I do not mistake fear for respect, because to do so would be to ensure my own victimization. Let us use our big human brains to overpower our animal tendency to bow to predators, so we can disentangle the reflexive confusion of anxiety and awe. In a perfect world, human respect would be an automatic reaction only to those who are strong, kind, and morally courageous. The person who profits from frightening you is not likely to be any of these.
The resolve to keep respect separate from fear is even more crucial for groups and nations. The politician, small or lofty, who menaces the people with frequent reminders of the possibility of crime, violence, or terrorism, and who then uses their magnified fear to gain allegiance is more likely to be a successful con artist than a legitimate leader. This too has been true throughout human history.
7.Do not join the game.
Intrigue is a sociopath’s tool. Resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociopath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze, or even banter with him. In addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself.
8.The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.
Psychologists do not usually like to recommend avoidance, but in this case, I make a very deliberate exception. The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous. Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life. You will not hurt anyone’s feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.
You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual. Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain. Avoid hi/her anyway.
If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.
9.Question your tendency to pity too easily.
Respect should be reserved for the kind and the morally courageous. Pity is another socially valuable response, and should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or who have fallen on misfortune. If, instead, you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to one hundred percent that you are dealing with a sociopath.
Related to this – I recommend that you severely challenge your need to be polite in absolutely all situations. For normal adults in our culture, being what we think of as “civilized” is like a reflex, and often we find ourselves being automatically decorous even when someone has enraged us, repeatedly lied to us, or figuratively stabbed us in the back. Sociopaths take huge advantage of this automatic courtesy in exploitive situations.
Do not be afraid to be unsmiling and calmly to the point.
10.Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.
Second (third, fourth, and fifth) chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses.
At some point, most of us need to learn the important if disappointing life lesson that, no matter how good our intentions, we cannot control the behavior-- let alone the character structures-- of other people. Learn this fact of human life, and avoid the irony of getting caught up in the same ambition he has-- to control.
If you do not desire control, but instead want to help people, then help only those who truly want to be helped. I think you will find this does not include the person who has no conscience.
The sociopath’s behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever. It is also not your mission. Your mission is your own life.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
cont.
11.Never agree, out of pity or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character.
“Please don’t tell,” often spoken tearfully and with great gnashing of teeth, is the trademark plea of thieves, child abusers-- and sociopaths. Do not listen to this siren-song. Other people deserve to be warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets.
If someone without conscience insists that you “owe” him or her, recall what you are about to read here-- that “You owe me” has been the standard line of sociopaths for thousands of years, quite literally, and is still so. It is what Rasputin told the Empress of Russia. It is what Hannah’s father implied to her, after her eye-opening conversation with him at the prison.
We tend to experience “You owe me” as a compelling claim, but it is simply not true. Do not listen. Also, ignore the one that goes, “You are just like me.” You are not.
12.Defend your psyche.
Do not allow someone without conscience, or even a string of such people, to convince you that humanity is a failure. Most human beings do possess conscience. Most human beings are able to love.
13.Living well is the best revenge.
11.Never agree, out of pity or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character.
“Please don’t tell,” often spoken tearfully and with great gnashing of teeth, is the trademark plea of thieves, child abusers-- and sociopaths. Do not listen to this siren-song. Other people deserve to be warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets.
If someone without conscience insists that you “owe” him or her, recall what you are about to read here-- that “You owe me” has been the standard line of sociopaths for thousands of years, quite literally, and is still so. It is what Rasputin told the Empress of Russia. It is what Hannah’s father implied to her, after her eye-opening conversation with him at the prison.
We tend to experience “You owe me” as a compelling claim, but it is simply not true. Do not listen. Also, ignore the one that goes, “You are just like me.” You are not.
12.Defend your psyche.
Do not allow someone without conscience, or even a string of such people, to convince you that humanity is a failure. Most human beings do possess conscience. Most human beings are able to love.
13.Living well is the best revenge.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
We’ve all tried the pity play, but most of us see it as one of our bad moments where we fail to exhibit good character, not an example of how bad the rest of the world is and how put upon we are. The question is this: Is the pity party your husband’s “go-to pitch”? The second question is this: does he also run the “gas light” play, where you know something is wrong and he talks you out of trusting your own sense of things, in favor of an untruth that suits him better? If it is, absolutely get yourself an attorney, even if you have to borrow money from your parents or your best friend to do it.
There could be a lot of things going on here. Your husband may just have some attention deficit thing going on. That makes him a very poor candidate for owning his own business. The self-employed need to be self-motivated. That’s not a criticism of those of us who can’t make it without someone above us to answer to; that is just the way it is. Since your husband will not make himself accountable to you, don’t be his business partner. Tell him he needs a boss in his organization, a leader, and so far it doesn’t have one. Don’t invest good time on top of bad on that.
Since you are declaring bankruptcy, you may find that Catholic Charities can help you find a counselor. It’s just a thought.
There could be a lot of things going on here. Your husband may just have some attention deficit thing going on. That makes him a very poor candidate for owning his own business. The self-employed need to be self-motivated. That’s not a criticism of those of us who can’t make it without someone above us to answer to; that is just the way it is. Since your husband will not make himself accountable to you, don’t be his business partner. Tell him he needs a boss in his organization, a leader, and so far it doesn’t have one. Don’t invest good time on top of bad on that.
Since you are declaring bankruptcy, you may find that Catholic Charities can help you find a counselor. It’s just a thought.
M
mega1
Guest
Thank you for sharing that…I know…I don’t think he’s a full blow sociopath…but I see some elements of it.
As for gas lighting…I truly think that may be happening to me. It’s hard to see the forest through the trees…but it could be happening.
He also senses when I’m getting upset or ticked off. Tonight he told me he’s surprising me with a special dinner out tomorrow night… He knows that I’m upset …I’m not right. He is ready to smooth things over…
This is the cycle…
As for gas lighting…I truly think that may be happening to me. It’s hard to see the forest through the trees…but it could be happening.
He also senses when I’m getting upset or ticked off. Tonight he told me he’s surprising me with a special dinner out tomorrow night… He knows that I’m upset …I’m not right. He is ready to smooth things over…
This is the cycle…
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