I need ADVICE! Badly!

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for sharing that…I know…I don’t think he’s a full blow sociopath…but I see some elements of it.

As for gas lighting…I truly think that may be happening to me. It’s hard to see the forest through the trees…but it could be happening.

He also senses when I’m getting upset or ticked off. Tonight he told me he’s surprising me with a special dinner out tomorrow night… He knows that I’m upset …I’m not right. He is ready to smooth things over…

This is the cycle…

Uh-huh. Wow, this is not looking good.

Hey, I’m not a big believer in labels. In one way, it doesn’t matter if he has something diagnosable or not. What helps me is to see the strategies that someone might use, like what a sociopath uses, and in that case to know the strategies that a person who (for whatever reason, most of us indulge in jabbing forks in our spiritual eyes sometimes) has chosen to suspend their empathy and to secretly act out of self-serving motives, instead. This is the thing about people who have given themselves over, whether it is addiction or a sociopath or a narcissist or a borderline personality or whatever: You cannot predict what they will do by considering what you would do in their place. If you’re ever in their place, you won’t be thinking or acting like yourself. You have to learn how people act when they look at the world in a way you can’t imagine. For instance, it is the bread and butter of a sociopath to “pass” for someone with typical emotions…only the “emotions” come when it serves an end. Somehow when the emotions don’t serve the self, they vanish. These are people who live double lives and just stun everyone around them, because some of them are such accomplished actors.

His behavior does seem to have that sort of pattern…that is, his shows of love for you have been calculated to be self-serving, rather than being sacrificial and primarily aimed at your good instead of his profit. But no, he may just be selfish in how he deals with you, he may be very immature, or something you don’t understand may be going on. Learn how to deal with a sociopath, though, and you will be ready for what he might try to slip past you. (I would not trust him, and especially look out for crocodile tears or plays for your pity.)

Speaking of, you really need to see a good lawyer and get solid and specific advice about what to do or not to do in order to position yourself to gain sole custody, if it comes to that. For instance, it may be that you will need to document things such as the issue with the school nurse, because you may need evidence that he is not trustworthy as a sole custodial parent. I mean you need to be able to document the truth, because for all the world he seems to be getting you to go along with planting all sorts of evidence that flies in the face of the truth.

Diagnosing your relationship is out of my league, but I can say your husband is routinely violating boundaries that you a) ought to feel you can enforce and b) that you ought to be ready to find are symptoms of a truly dangerous and unpredictable personality, someone who can really run a bulldozer through your life. Heads up on that. Always defend the truth, because the bad actors will always try to bury it as deeply as they possibly can.

 

[judynurse]

I am also not qualified to diagnose this man’s problem, but I can say from experience that it is not NORMAL or healthy – for you or your son! I think you should take the other’s advice, gain all the proof you can of his unreliability as a parent and husband. Talk to a lawyer, especially a Bankruptcy lawyer in the state you now live in. Go to the school Counselor at your son’s school (even if you must take a day off work!) and let them know what the problem is. Talk to your son’s doctor, and your doctor. Talk to another Priest, contact Catholic Social Services, get yourself some help, girl!!! This situation is not going to improve by ignoring it or “getting by”. You need to start enabling YOU and not HIM! Think of your son growing up to be “just like Daddy” or to end up hating the idea of marriage because of the example he saw growing up!

You absolutely need help, and professional help! Catholic Social Services can assist you with legal and other issues and they don’t cost you any money! Don’t keep looking for “magic answers” on the Internet, although we all are trying to help you and are praying for you – you need to start doing something about them, before you break entirely. I continue to pray for you daily!

 

[AnneTeresa]

Is there any indication he may have an addiction? To porn or something else? I ask because many of the things you are describing (your codependency, his coldness then trying to be nice, the craziness and chaos) sound similar to what I went through with my husband when he was acting out his addiction.

You really need to set firm boundaries and you will need help to stick with them, you can find support in 12 step groups or with a therapist.

I amreallysorry for your pain. Will pray for you.

 

[mega1]

Wow, I am really nervous right now, because I am seeing evidence that I am clearly clueless to my husband’s behavior. I want to believe that he doesn’t have any ill intentions with his behavior…but I think you guys are helping me lift the veil on this.

I can see SO much of myself in this.

---

How do you know if you are being gaslighted? If any of the following warning signs ring true, you may be dancing the Gaslight Tango. Take care of yourself by taking another look at your relationship, talking to a trusted friend; and, begin to think about changing the dynamic of your relationship . Here are the signs:

1. You are constantly second-guessing yourself
2. You ask yourself, “Am I too sensitive?” a dozen times a day.
3. You often feel confused and even crazy at work.
4. You’re always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend, boss.
5. You can’t understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren’t happier.
6. You frequently make excuses for your partner’s behavior to friends and family.
7. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don’t have to explain or make excuses.
8. You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.
9. You start lying to avoid the put downs and reality twists.
10. You have trouble making simple decisions.
11. You have the sense that you used to be a very different person - more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed.
12. You feel hopeless and joyless.
13. You feel as though you can’t do anything right.
14. You wonder if you are a “good enough” girlfriend/ wife/employee/ friend; daughter.
15. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don’t have to explain or make excuses.

 

[EasterJoy]

Think of this as a diagnostic test. Yes, you’re right, your intuition that this isn’t right was correct. Now it is time to get someone who is competent to diagnosis to help you. Whatever you do, get someone who has experience with manipulative personalities to help you. There are therapists out there who are vulnerable to manipulation.

 

[retire_early]

I hope that your posting in this forum has helped you in some way.

I read many of the posts, but not all, relating to your situation.

Your story strikes me as unreal and you seem to be very strangely focused on money and Bad Things Happening.

Why don’t you just work a normal job, bring home what money you can, kindly encourage your husband to get his own job and relax? You can’t control what other people do, only what you do.

If your income goes down, then just reduce your expenses to fit.

But you seem like a real driven money-maker, and also, you seem like you really thrive on Living-on-the-Edge and High Drama. Whatever for?

Get this: I don’t have a TV, a cell phone or a car. I just recently stopped eating butter, cheese and red meat as well as desserts and started eating more whole grains and vegetables and guess what? I feel better. I think my cholesterol is improving. Life is good.

You want a happy life? Go, get one.

 

[mega1]

I hear you loud and clear. It’s a good baseline test.

I wonder what would happen if I told my husband that I no longer want to work full time. That I just can’t do this anymore… And since I’m bankrupt… It’s the perfect time for me to let go of these obligations. What if I told him I need him to be the sole provider for a bit… And I’ll work on a side business…

That would probably not get much of a reaction, because he knows I’d never do that. But still…

Think of this as a diagnostic test. Yes, you’re right, your intuition that this isn’t right was correct. Now it is time to get someone who is competent to diagnosis to help you. Whatever you do, get someone who has experience with manipulative personalities to help you. There are therapists out there who are vulnerable to manipulation.

 

[Xantippe]

I wouldn’t go so far as EasterJoy with regard to sociopathy. Maybe I’m being naive, but the OP’s husband mainly sounds weak, fearful, passive aggressive, emotionally needy and manipulative. It sounds like they’re in a sort of dance, where the OP blows up regularly and he appeases her and then she quiets down and he stops appeasing her and then she blows up and he appeases her, etc. I don’t know how you get off that carousel (a therapist could help, I suppose).

mega1 said:

"I wonder what would happen if I told my husband that I no longer want to work full time. That I just can’t do this anymore… And since I’m bankrupt… It’s the perfect time for me to let go of these obligations. What if I told him I need him to be the sole provider for a bit… And I’ll work on a side business…

“That would probably not get much of a reaction, because he knows I’d never do that. But still…”

See, that sounds like the carousel again. My advice to you is to only say things to your husband that you can follow through on. Don’t threaten, don’t dramatize. Make a plan, calmly explain it to your husband, and follow through. I think both of you have a tendency to say stuff that you don’t really mean–for instance your husband “threatening” to take a $40k a year job.

Say what you mean, mean what you say. Be consistent and explain that you are doing what is best for the family as a whole. Say something like this: “I can only work so long and so hard without breaking down and I want to see and enjoy our son. We are going to need to adjust our budget to our income. I am going to work my job 50 hours a week and we are going to need to adjust our lifestyle down to match the money that the two of us bring in. And that needs to be the income that we bring in every month. If we have a particularly good month, we should pay off my 401(k) loan and save. I’m not going to be able to work forever. We need to either save a pile of money or learn to live on a couple thousand dollars a month.”

To him, that may sound like mwa-wa-wa-wa adult talk like in the cartoon version of Peanuts, but you’ll have tried.

Also, get him to Financial Peace University or a Dave Ramsey live event. You may need to dangle something shiny in front of him to get him to go, but get him there.

 

[mega1]

Yes, I didn’t say sociopath… I did, however, see evidence of gas lighting once I read about it.

It’s our annivsary this weekend and his birthday… And I am really torn on what to do …

I feel as if I will lose strength and clarity… If I give in and initiate sex with him and showr him with gifts as I once did.

 

[EasterJoy]

I wouldn’t go so far as EasterJoy with regard to sociopathy. Maybe I’m being naive, but the OP’s husband mainly sounds weak, fearful, passive aggressive, emotionally needy and manipulative. It sounds like they’re in a sort of dance, where the OP blows up regularly and he appeases her and then she quiets down and he stops appeasing her and then she blows up and he appeases her, etc. I don’t know how you get off that carousel (a therapist could help, I suppose).

mega1 said:

"I wonder what would happen if I told my husband that I no longer want to work full time. That I just can’t do this anymore… And since I’m bankrupt… It’s the perfect time for me to let go of these obligations. What if I told him I need him to be the sole provider for a bit… And I’ll work on a side business…

“That would probably not get much of a reaction, because he knows I’d never do that. But still…”

See, that sounds like the carousel again. My advice to you is to only say things to your husband that you can follow through on. Don’t threaten, don’t dramatize. Make a plan, calmly explain it to your husband, and follow through. I think both of you have a tendency to say stuff that you don’t really mean–for instance your husband “threatening” to take a $40k a year job.

Say what you mean, mean what you say. Be consistent and explain that you are doing what is best for the family as a whole. Say something like this: “I can only work so long and so hard without breaking down and I want to see and enjoy our son. We are going to need to adjust our budget to our income. I am going to work my job 50 hours a week and we are going to need to adjust our lifestyle down to match the money that the two of us bring in. And that needs to be the income that we bring in every month. If we have a particularly good month, we should pay off my 401(k) loan and save. I’m not going to be able to work forever. We need to either save a pile of money or learn to live on a couple thousand dollars a month.”

To him, that may sound like mwa-wa-wa-wa adult talk like in the cartoon version of Peanuts, but you’ll have tried.

Also, get him to Financial Peace University or a Dave Ramsey live event. You may need to dangle something shiny in front of him to get him to go, but get him there.

Thank you for the clarification, because this is what I meant:

A sociopath is someone who doesn’t have an emotional conscience. They treat people badly, they use people, they pretend emotions they do not feel in order to gain the trust of others, they manipulate others to please themselves, they go through life looking for whatever makes them feel the best and the most well-regarded by others, whether deserved or not, and they feel no remorse about it. A true sociopath will even find the entire concept of remorse and empathy to be a fable, something people in power made up in order to control people who are gullible and weak.

My point is not to put the label of sociopath on her husband! My point is not to say that he has the attitude of a true sociopath!! No! My point is that he may be going through a phase of his life where he has let go of empathy, sinking only into self-concern. This is something that any of us might go through, and therein lies my point: When someone is in this kind of phase, it is important to realize that they may not be seeing the world in anything like the way that you would. If they do not have a strong intellectual conscience, they will have become someone that it will be very dangerous to trust.

You have to accept that there are people in the world who have given leave of their emotional conscience–not just those who never had one, but those who have become enslaved to sin or addiction or who have distortions in the chemical balance of their brains. Here is the take-home message: For some people, especially among contemporary Americans, the emotional conscience is the only conscience they have. If that goes, if they stop feeling guilty for taking care of themselves first and foremost (and by extension, leaving the rest to the devil), then in that case they do not have an intellectual conscience to force them to do what is right and reject what is wrong. They will be guided purely by self-serving motives, in a way that person with either empathy or conscience might not be able to imagine. They will have lost their moral bearings entirely, and what they will choose to do cannot be predicted based on what a person of conscience would choose to do.

That does not mean they’ll never come to their senses. It does mean they cannot be trusted to do the right thing until they do, and that they have to be held to account by outside entities. They will have stopped holding themselves to account, and that means they cannot be trusted without great peril. The person who still has her conscience will have to open her eyes and use her imagination to consider what this person is capable of, because she will not be able to imagine it by imagining what she would do under similar circumstances or even what he would do when his empathy and natural affection was in working order.

If her husband has never acted in ways other than the ways he is acting now, that is when I would be scared. There is no true sense of empathy for a sociopath to regain, but only a faked sense of empathy. A person without moorings can come to their senses, but a true sociopath is a very dangerous person. Most experts will tell you that the best path is to very carefully cut ties with them as quickly as possible. Unless the OP has a revelation about her husband’s durable character, though, that is not what she will want to do. If lack of true empathy and affection is not his durable character, she has a marriage to save, for her son’s sake, for her sake, and for her husband’s sake, too.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, I didn’t say sociopath… I did, however, see evidence of gas lighting once I read about it.

It’s our annivsary this weekend and his birthday… And I am really torn on what to do …

I feel as if I will lose strength and clarity… If I give in and initiate sex with him and showr him with gifts as I once did.

I think you need to figure out how to find someone who can help you diagnose your own situation. Call Catholic Charities; they may be able to help you find counseling from your present financial circumstances. When you get an appointment, make it clear that you fear your husband may have some sort of permanent or transient personality disorder, or that maybe there is some other reason, but he is saying one thing and yet acting in a totally different way, actively undermining your own sense of things, and that you need help to navigate that in a clear-headed, non-destructive, and non-paranoid way.

 

[MJJean]

I wouldn’t go so far as EasterJoy with regard to sociopathy. Maybe I’m being naive, but the OP’s husband mainly sounds weak, fearful, passive aggressive, emotionally needy and manipulative. It sounds like they’re in a sort of dance, where the OP blows up regularly and he appeases her and then she quiets down and he stops appeasing her and then she blows up and he appeases her, etc. I don’t know how you get off that carousel (a therapist could help, I suppose).

I totally agree. This is a man that either does not want or cannot handle real adult responsibility and has learned how to manipulate his wife so that she will not divorce and will continue supporting him. Period. And she is allowing it to happen again and again.

I was in a similar marriage with a similar man only we were very poor because I had no skills or education and worked cruddy jobs and he wouldn’t be responsible for at home parenting and house maintenance nor would he work a full time, long term job. But he would sure step it up when he sensed I was close to blowing my top and kicking him out into the world where he’d have no choice but to live with momma or grow the heck up.

I “got off that carousel” by filing for divorce.

I am now remarried to a wonderful man who takes care of me and the children from my first marriage as well as the one we have together. We own our home, we have running vehicles that are paid off and zero credit card debt. If we can’t pay for it out of our bank account, we don’t have it.

My ex…well. He is remarried and living with momma. He still doesn’t work nor does he do pretty much anything else one would expect of a 40 year old adult male.

Either stop the insanity by actually filing for divorce or sincerely take some of the other posters advice and remove his name from all accounts, you handle all household finances, and he is expected to get a real job within 90 days, like it or not. He must also keep that job come rain or shine, Hell or high water. Otherwise, you’ll file and he’ll be out on his arse.

Frankly, even with your work schedule, you’d have a good chance of getting custody and your husband having to pay child support. The court tends to be biased toward women, you can prove your husband is NOT responsible just with the school medication incident as well as his employment record. The court really isn’t sympathetic to a man who refuses to work, especially if he has education and/or a marketable job skill. Believe me, I have been there enough times with my ex. Judges don’t want to hear excuses. All you’d need to show the court you are a fit parent would be to A) be working and providing and B) have childcare after school hours arranged with someone reliable. Either a daycare or a private sitter would work. There are an awful lot of working women who have custody.

 

[Xantippe]

EasterJoy said:

“For some people, especially among contemporary Americans, the emotional conscience is the only conscience they have.”

I think that’s very insightful.

MJJean said:

“Frankly, even with your work schedule, you’d have a good chance of getting custody and your husband having to pay child support. The court tends to be biased toward women, you can prove your husband is NOT responsible just with the school medication incident as well as his employment record.”

Courts are kind of unpredictable, though–remember that weird judge who gave a 50-something teacher a 31-day sentence for the statutory rape of a 14-year-old who later committed suicide? I would be very concerned about drawing a self-consciously “progressive” judge who would give the OP’s husband custody just to prove what a sensitive new age guy (or gal) he or she is.

Definitely document stuff like the medication episode. Actually, come to think of it, he was endangering your child’s life by dropping the ball on that. Maybe treat that as a first strike, and if there is any other episode of severe negligence of that sort, be prepared to leave (under a lawyer’s guidance, of course). I don’t think there should be a third strike. A lot of people would argue that there shouldn’t even be a second strike. (I’m not sure I would mention this to the husband, either, as he has such a long track record of temporarily pulling himself together and then screwing up again.)

 

[mega1]

I’m so grateful for all of this amazing insight and knowledge! You all don’t realize how much you are helping me gain clarity.

Can I ask a question? How would you go about getting documentation from the school without tipping off anyone?

Also, how would you treat this dinner he has planned out tonight and gifts? Knowing that I’m going to talk to a divorce attorney…

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m so grateful for all of this amazing insight and knowledge! You all don’t realize how much you are helping me gain clarity.

Can I ask a question? How would you go about getting documentation from the school without tipping off anyone?

Also, how would you treat this dinner he has planned out tonight and gifts? Knowing that I’m going to talk to a divorce attorney…

Go out to dinner with an open mind…he’s still your husband, and maybe this is just a temporary loss of moorings due to the loss of his job. The consultation with the attorney is not for the purpose of filing for divorce, but for the purpose of preparing for a divorce that you can’t avoid. It is like having an evacuation plan or knowing how to clip your bushes around your house in the case of a wildfire. You are not wishing for a wildfire by preparing for one!! He would hardly be the first to suffer from loss of confidence and direction due to a forced career change, let alone a career change due to pursuit of a dream that is proving harder to pursue than he had imagined. Maybe that is all you are dealing with. Let’s hope so!! Let also hope that no one here is pushing you towards a divorce you could have avoided.

You may realize that what he needs is encouragement to do for himself what he can do for himself. You may realize that while this is a situation that needs to change, it may not at all be a situation that calls for divorce. So while you have to be ready for the worst, you also need to hope and work for the best…and the best is that you get through this financial mess and your husband’s lack of gumption, get back on the tracks, and find yourself 25 years from now “married happily ever after”!

As for documentation from the school, you may not need it and if you do you won’t know what you would need until you talk to an attorney. Again: Getting ready for a wildfire because you see smoke on the horizon does not mean that you are going to lose your home. Your goal is to be prudent, not to bolt and run prematurely.

I say this because I know both people who were convince they needed a divorce who are still happily married and people who later came to regret their divorce because they did not fully understand their options or what could be wrong before they took the jump. Others were blindsided by what divorce could do to them, and taken advantage of because their spouse’s attorney took advantage of their lack of foresight. Your job is to aim for the fixed marriage that is made stronger by having weathered the storm, but you also have to be ready to evacuate if it doesn’t work out that way. The two goals do not have to work against each other, so try not to let them do that.

BTW, I would also look into the possibility that he has some attention deficit issues. Like the sociopath, the person with ADD can have great plans that they somehow never figure out how to follow through on. The causes behind the difficulties and the prognosis for getting beyond that difficulty is totally different, however! Likewise, many of the strategies of the sociopath are the strategies of a typical person who finds themselves in an embarrassing situation that they don’t want to have discovered. Not every bad pattern of behavior is rooted in a disordered personality. Sometimes it is something that can be fixed with recognition and a true pattern of true repentance, a recognition of the strategies such a person may need that others don’t need, or just some encouragement that the person won’t lose face or love by having to admit to not performing up to snuff.

 

[mega1]

No I understand. But what you don’t have the full background on… Due to my lack of providing it… Is that this is a consistent cycle. He smoothed things over and I retreat… Although, not happily.

Do you have the sense that you would feel a huge gaping hole if the love of your life left?

I don’t. It would be more about covering the chores and our son. Ive heard people consistently compliment their spouses on here… About finding a “wonderful man”. I can’t say I’ve EVER felt that way about him. We got married young and he was the mean hard to get guy that I so badly wanted approval from. He was rude… Acted like a leach back then. But no one could break me away… We dated for 8 months.

I tried to call off the wedding, but my mother flipped out. So I went through with it.

This is not just a blip on the radar, unfortunately.

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy said:

“For some people, especially among contemporary Americans, the emotional conscience is the only conscience they have.”

I think that’s very insightful.

You see it most often in divorce, don’t you think? The spouses can stop caring “how that would feel if someone did that to you” because their immediate thought is “well that IS what someone is doing to me, and I won’t take it lying down!!”

IOW, when we are going through something painful with someone we feel we ought to have been able to trust, we can have a desire to return pain for pain. The “how would you feel” gauge of morality totally fails us. This is when the intellectual conscience is needed, the conscience that reminds us that the ends do not justify the means, that Christ calls us beyond “an eye for an eye,” let alone an eye in advance for an anticipated eye that we won’t be able to take out if they blind us first!

Likewise, when we’re going through a very difficult time of our lives, we can turn in on ourselves and stop seeing how our actions affect others. That is another time that “how would that feel if someone did that to you?” can fail us, because of course we don’t pay any attention to how others are feeling, only to our own pained insides.

 

[EasterJoy]

No I understand. But what you don’t have the full background on… Due to my lack of providing it… Is that this is a consistent cycle. He smoothed things over and I retreat… Although, not happily.

Do you have the sense that you would feel a huge gaping hole if the love of your life left?

I don’t. It would be more about covering the chores and our son. Ive heard people consistently compliment their spouses on here… About finding a “wonderful man”. I can’t say I’ve EVER felt that way about him. We got married young and he was the mean hard to get guy that I so badly wanted approval from. He was rude… Acted like a leach back then. But no one could break me away… We dated for 8 months.

I tried to call off the wedding, but my mother flipped out. So I went through with it.

This is not just a blip on the radar, unfortunately.

That is unfortunate. Get yourself some pastoral care, because I have been talking theory, for you to use as you see fit in your discernment, and you are talking reality. That is a pay grade above mine. By all means, though, be ready for a wildfire to come through. Hang in there. You can do this, and you can survive whatever comes!!

Do get “The Sociopath Next Door” if this is a consistent cycle. Again: he doesn’t have to be an actual sociopath for you to gain some appreciation for what someone might do to you when you think he is playing with a full conscience while he has chosen to take leave of it. I’m not making a diagnosis, remember that. I’m suggesting that you learn what the lay of the land may be, because this may be country like you have never seen before. You cannot afford to have that take you by surprise. (You’d still survive it, God does not abandon the unprepared, but you’d weather the storm with far less shelter. Rely on God, but look at the map and row away from the rocks!)

 

[Xantippe]

Also, try Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men.” Your husband doesn’t sound (on the surface) angry, but I think you could learn a lot from the book. The answer to the title is–because it works. Your husband’s behavior, dysfunctional as it is, does, to some extent, produce more or less the results that he wants.

The way out, if there is one, is to make it stop working for him.

 

[EasterJoy]

Also, try Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men.” Your husband doesn’t sound (on the surface) angry, but I think you could learn a lot from the book. The answer to the title is–because it works. Your husband’s behavior, dysfunctional as it is, does, to some extent, produce more or less the results that he wants.

The way out, if there is one, is to make it stop working for him.

I have gained so many insights from this strategy: that is, from a willingness to see similarities in the human nature by learning about people who might seem on the surface to be very different from ourselves. If you learn what an alcoholic has to learn to stay sober, for instance, you can learn so much about how to respond when you want to self-medicate a painful situation where that is the last thing that will help you. If you learn what co-dependents need to know, you learn about drawing boundaries to keep others out of what is your duty and responsibility as well as boundaries that keep you from straying into what is theirs. If you learn the patterns of the “angry” and the “controlling”, you learn the temptations that we each face when we are frustrated or fear a loss of control–which everyone does feel from time to time!