I Need Help with Poem of the Man-God

  • Thread starter Thread starter Atanatar
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thank you, but after going back and reviewing the entries, I think my apology was necessary. I think it would be a good idea for me to re-read what I write before hitting the “Submit Reply Button”. You didn’t offend me at all, I understand that you are as compelled as I am in supporting your position and views. You are correct is saying; “That we may disagree, but we each have points on both our sides”. God Bless You and your family this wonderful Christmas season.
 
I guess for someone who considers sworn statements from three distinguished Priests (one being a Prior of the International College of the Servites of Mary in Rome), in addition to a sworn statement from the Cardinal who held the position as Vatican Recorder in 1948 to be hearsay. This support would not be taken lightly by anyone who has an ounce of rational thought. Do you have a Last-Will-And-Testament? That is supported by only two witnesses, (not even Roman Catholic Priests or a Cardinal, as in this case)., and that would be valid, in the USA, even if you were a billionaire.
I can understand your confusion on this point because you seem to think that these sworn statements hold the same type of witness quality as the witnessing of a common legal document. In this case and all cases concerning judgments of a Pontiff they do not. This is why I say they are hearsay because no matter if they were sworn before a subsequent Roman Pontiff they would still be treated to hearsay per canon law. Judgments of a Roman Pontiff are his alone and if they cannot be verified by him alone then any claim of anyone cleric or lay is not valid for a canonical argument involving the judgments of the Holy Father.

I am not speaking against the moral standing of the individual men but rather I am speaking about matters of procedure which exist for just such a case. Because there is no verification there is no action so the only actions that matter are the verified actions of later Pontificates who hold fast to the position that the so called “Poem of the Man-God” is not a matter of the supernatural.
 
Try to think of it this way; If you were a Priest and the Pope ordered you to do something, and afterwards a Cardinal told you to do the exact opposite, whose orders would you follow?
-quoted from greg 11430

I would go back to the pope and ask for clarification. If that Pope were dead, I would go to the present one, and follow his instructions.

A lone Raven
If a Cardinal gave me a contradictory order from what the Pope directed me to do I would most certainly do what the Pope tells me and then report to the Pope what the Cardinal said.
 
I’ve been told by several Catholic friends who read the Poem of the Man-God that Pope Paul VI was an enthusiastic promoter of these books, so much so that his entourage and staff used to try curb his comments on the topic. I found several sites that say that when he was the Archbishop of Milan he had these books placed in the seminary library. But I can’t find anything in addition to this. Does anyone know more on this topic.
 
🙂 I think this may be of help. A few years ago a friend lent me a book entitled “The Virgin Mary In the Writings of Maria Valtorta” by Father Gabriel Roschini. I recall being startled at finding the first two pages contained a letter of admiration of Father Gabriel’s book by Pope Paul VI, complete with the Vatican insignia, in English, with a photocopy of the original Papal letter in Italian. I can’t remember the exact wording, but I can recall the letter calling Father Gabriel’s book “obvious proof”, and thanking him wholeheartedly for his new testimony. I know that this is far from a direct Papal approval of the Poem of the Man-God by any means, but I think that at the minimal, it is strong evidence that The Poem of the Man-God cannot be considered heresy, as those hostile to this lovely gift from God are saying.
 
The Annunciation.
Code:
What I see, Mary, a very young girl: She looks fifteen years old, at most.  She is in a small rectangular room: a room most suitable for a girl.  Along one of the longer walls, there is a bed: a low bed, without bedstead, covered with thick mats or carpets, which appear to be laid on boards or came-trellis, because they are very stiff and without any curve, as is usual beds.  Against the other wall there is a kind of bookcase with an oil lamp, some rolls of parchment, some needlework carefully folded: it seems to be embroidery work.

Beside the bookcase, towards the door, which opens onto the kitchen garden and which is now covered by a curtain gently moved by a light breeze, there is the Virgin sitting on a low stool.  She is spinning some linen which is as white as snow and as soft as silk.  Her little hands, just a little darker than linen, are whirling the spindle very quickly.  Her beautiful young face is slightly bent forward and She is smiling gently as if She were caressing or following some sweet thought.

There is a great silence in the little house and in the kitchen garden.  There is a great peace both on Mary's face and in the surrounding place.  There is a peace and order.  Everything is neat and tidy and the room, although very modest looking and very modestly furnished, it is almost as bare as a cell, has something austere and regal about it because of its cleanliness and the care which everything is laid: the clothes on the bed, the rolls, the lamp, the copper pitcher near the lamp, with a bunch of branches in bloom in it.  I do not know whether they are peach or pear branches.  They are certainly branches of a fruit-tree, with pinkish white flowers.

Mary begins to sing in a low voice, then She raises Her voice slightly.  But She does not sing loudly.  Still, it is a voice vibrating in the little room and one can perceive the vibration of Her soul in it.  I do not understand the words as they are spoken in Hebrew.  But as now and again She repeats "Jehovah" I realize that it is a sacred song, perhaps a psalm.  Mary is probably remembering the songs of the Temple.  And it must be a happy memory because She lays Her hands in Her lap, while still holding the yarn and the spindle, and lifts Her head leaning against the wall:  Her face is beautifully flushed and Her eyes are lost behind.  I wonder what sweet thought.  Her eyes are shining with tears, which appear but do not overflow and they make Her eyes look larger.  And yet those eyes are smiling, they are smiling at a thought they can see and by which Mary is abstracted from the earthly world.  Mary's face, flushed and girded by the plaits She wears rolled up like a crown round Her head, seems a beautiful flower, as it emerges from Her plain white dress.

The song changes into a prayer: "Most High Lord God, do not delay any longer in sending Your Servant to bring peace to the world.  Grant us the favorable time and the pure and prolific virgin for the coming of Your Christ.  Father, Holy Father, grant Me, Your servant to offer My life for this purpose.  Grant Me to die after seeing Your Light and Your Justice on earth and after knowing that our Redemption has been accomplished.  O Holy Father, send the Promise of the Prophets to the earth.  Send the Redeemer to Your maidservant, so that in the hour of my death, Your abode may be opened to Me, as its gates have already been opened by Your Christ for all those who have hoped in You.  Come, come, O Spirit of the Lord.  Come to the faithful who are expecting You.  Come, Prince of Peace!"  Mary remains absorbed thus.

The curtain moves fast, as if someone behind it ventilated it of shook it to draw it.  And a pearl white light mixed with pure silver makes the slightly yellow walls clearer and makes the colors of the cloths brighter and Mary's raised face more spiritual.  And in such light, while the curtain is still drawn on the mystery to be accomplished, the Archangel prostrates himself: the curtain no longer moves: it is hanging stiff against the doorposts like a wall separating the inside from the outside.

The Angel must necessarily take a human appearance.  But it is a trans-humanized appearance.  Of what flesh is this beautiful and gleaming figure made?  With what substance did God form it to make it perceptible to the senses of the Virgin?  Only God can possess such substances and use them so perfectly.  It is a face, a body, eyes, a mouth, hair and hands like ours.  But they are not our dull matter.  It is a light that has taken the color of flesh, of eyes, hair, lips, a light that moves and smiles, looks and speaks.
 
“Hail, Mary, full of Grace, Hail!” The voice is a sweet arpeggio as of pearls thrown on a precious metal plate.
Mary is startled and lowers Her head. And She is even more startled when She sees the shinning creature kneeling at about a meter, [1 meter equals 3.281 ft], from Her and looking at Her with infinite veneration, his hands crossed over his chest.
Code:
Mary jumps to Her feet and She squeezes against the wall.  She turns pale and red alternately.  Her face shows surprise and fear.  She subconsciously presses Her hands against Her breast hiding Her body as much as possible.  An attitude of gently modesty.

"No.  Do not fear.  The Lord is with You!  You are blessed amongst all woman!"

But Mary continues to be afraid.  Where has that extraordinary being come from?  Is he a messenger of God or of the Deceiver?

"Do not fear, Mary!"  repeats the Archangel.  "I am Gabriel, the Angel of God.  My lord has sent me to You.  Do not be afraid, because You have found grace in the eyes of God.  And You will conceive and bear a Son and You will call Him "Jesus":  He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High (and such He will really be).  And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His Ancestor David and He will rule over the House of Jacob forever, and His reign will have no end.  Understand, o Holy Virgin loved by God, Daughter blessed by Him, called to be the Mother of His Son, what Son You will generate!"

"How can this come about, since I do not know man?  Perhaps the Lord God will no longer accept the offer of His maidservant and does not want Me a Virgin for His love?"

"Not by deed of man You will be a mother, Mary.  You are the Eternal Virgin, the Holy Virgin of God.  The Holy Spirit will come upon You and the power of the Most High will cover You with its shadow.  So the Child born of You will be called Holy and Son of God.  Our Lord God can do everything.  Elizabeth, the barren one, in her old age has conceived a son who will be the Prophet of Your Son, and will prepare His ways.  The Lord has removed her disgrace and her memory will remain amongst peoples together with Your name, as the name of her creature will be joined to the name of Your Holy Son, and until the end of centuries you will be called blessed, because of the grace of the Lord which has come to both and particularly to You, by means of Whom Grace has come to all peoples.  Elizabeth is in her sixth month and her burden lifts her to joy, and will lift her even more when she hears of Your joy.  Nothing is impossible to the Lord, Mary, full of Grace.  What shall I tell my Lord?  Let no thought whatsoever disturb You.  He will protect Your interests if You trust in Him.  The world, Heaven, the Eternal Father are awaiting Your word!"

Mary crosses Her hands over Her breast and bowing down deeply, She says: "I am the handmaid of the Lord.  Let what you have said be done to Me."

The Angel shines out of joy.  He kneels in adoration because he certainly sees the Spirit of God descend upon the Virgin bent down in assent, and he disappears without moving the curtain, but leaves it well drawn over the holy Mystery.
 
I suspect the reason no one has wasted their time on this thread trying to answer your critique of the New American Bible commentary is because the issue has nothing to do with the Poem of the Man-God.

Mike
It is a waste of time to answer to false dichotomy which is the Modus operandi of groups like the False jehovah’s witnesses.
 
I guess your intelligence must be superior to two Roman Catholic Popes, a litany Cardinals Bishops and Priests. And your aptitude must also be more advanced to the skeptic Archeologists who discovered and excavated towns and villages that were unknown before Maria Valtorta’s death, being exactly were she said they would be.
 
Now, it is clear that as late as 1993, the Church has spoken quite authoritatively that the “visions” and “dictations” are not of supernatural origin.
While even private revelation which has been confirmed to be of supernatural origin (i.e. apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima, for example), we are not required to assent to them. However, whenever the Church states clearly that something is not of supernatural or divine origin, we are seriously erring in believing that, in this case, the visions and dictations are real.

Even if one humbly submits their will to that of the Church, but reads these texts anyway, places themselves at serious risk of believing something that has been shot down.

This information has been taken from this website.

Lux_et_veritas;1120349 I thank you and those who have agreed with what you have written for you postings. I thank those who have posted portions of this work which sounds demonic to me. Their information and behavior on this fourm has convinced me that It would be a shamefull waste of time to read this poem. It is sad to read of people who so easly dismiss the inspired guidance of our Pope for a work that appears to be pornagraphic.
 
I guess your intelligence must be superior to two Roman Catholic Popes, a litany Cardinals Bishops and Priests. And your aptitude must also be more advanced to the skeptic Archeologists who discovered and excavated towns and villages that were unknown before Maria Valtorta’s death, being exactly were she said they would be.
I may be assuming wrongly but I don’t think you have read the entire thread. If you have, than your are ignoring those who have pointed out that there is no credible evidence that any Pope approved this. The fact is this was condemned by the Church.
Bad things have come out of this. To go back to the topic of the thread.
However, the group I am dealing with, continues to promote this work. They claim, in a short summary because I do not have the time to quote everything right now, though I will if people respond and ask for quotation, they claim that the Bishops of today have failed to realize that the Poem is divine revelation. They claim it is an error to say that “private revelations” do not need to be believed, but the Poem is supposed to be public, it should be believed. Also, they would claim the Poem to be of “post Apolstolic revelation.”
This group because of this book is teaching heresy as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread.
It is unfortunate that when a posting disagrees with those who believe in this that ad homen attacks are made. Of course, this undermines their position. I suspect that this thread will soon disappear since Love4Mary2 has violated forum rules.
Thread pruned of off-topic posts.
Remain on topic or expect the thread to be closed.
 
Thanks, I read through the postings, the original Papal Order by Pope Pius XII outweighs the defiances of those attempting to annul his edict. No one has the clout to overturn a Papal Order. Anyone who considers otherwise is calling the three Priests (Posting 56 - Fr. R. Migliorini (Maria’s spiritual director), Fr. C. Berti, professor of Dogmatic and Sacramental Theology at Marianum, Pontifical Faculty of Theology, in Rome, and Fr. A. Cecchin, Prior of the Servites International College) and Cardinal Gagnon who witnessed it liars.
 
You are suspect that this thread will soon disappear since Love4Mary2 has violated forum rules? Is this because she is a supporter who made a quote? What about the guy who put all the partial quotes in order to make Jesus look like a Homo? That’s okay?
 
Thanks, I read through the postings, the original Papal Order by Pope Pius XII outweighs the defiances those attempting to annul his edict. No one has the clout to overturn a Papal Order. Anyone who considers otherwise is calling the three Priests (Posting 56 - Fr. R. Migliorini (Maria’s spiritual director), Fr. C. Berti, professor of Dogmatic and Sacramental Theology at Marianum, Pontifical Faculty of Theology, in Rome, and Fr. A. Cecchin, Prior of the Servites International College) and Cardinal Gagnon who witnessed it liars.
Posts
306 296
answer this assertion. These men heard what they wanted to hear. If the Pope had wanted this printed he would have stopped the condemnation. He did not and no one has logically explained why. How do you explain the screws in her story?
 
You are suspect that this thread will soon disappear since Love4Mary2 has violated forum rules? Is this because she is a supporter who made a quote? What about the guy who put all the partial quotes in order to make Jesus look like a Homo? That’s okay?
It is because she is not on topic. The topic was narrowly defined many postings were eliminated.
Forum rules:

.​

Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (especially replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).​

Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.​

Her posting was two posts long of a quote.
And she obviously was promoting an agenda.

Do not post copyrighted material.​

Do not post material from unapproved private revelations.​

She is guilty of breaking both these rules.
I find it odd that both she and you came on the forum at nearly the same time and only post in this thread. I would suspect you both have an agenda.
 
🙂 I think this may be of help. A few years ago a friend lent me a book entitled “The Virgin Mary In the Writings of Maria Valtorta” by Father Gabriel Roschini. I recall being startled at finding the first two pages contained a letter of admiration of Father Gabriel’s book by Pope Paul VI, complete with the Vatican insignia, in English, with a photocopy of the original Papal letter in Italian. I can’t remember the exact wording, but I can recall the letter calling Father Gabriel’s book “obvious proof”, and thanking him wholeheartedly for his new testimony. I know that this is far from a direct Papal approval of the Poem of the Man-God by any means, but I think that at the minimal, it is strong evidence that The Poem of the Man-God cannot be considered heresy, as those hostile to this lovely gift from God are saying.
If anybody can refute that Pope Paul VI “thanked” Father Gabriel’s book I would certainly like to see it as otherwise I can’t see how any true Catholic can condemn The Poem of the Man-God as neither anybody here (who do not support the book or the publishers) nor certainly the Pope would praise a book that endorses, supports and affirms the Poem of the Man-God and the messages contained therein.

I realize that Poem of the Man-God is based on private revelation and that anybody is free to not accept it and I certainly have no intention of ramming it down anybody’s throat but if Pope Paul VI approves it (not in the legal Church sense but nonetheless as Pope he is certainly capable of determining error) then no sincere catholic can say it would be bad for them to read it.
 
Reading through the posts, I can see what happened. I looks like the Holy Office had what would amount to a hissy-fit over these priests going above there heads. I still consider that Pope Pius the twelfths order holds superior authority. The Poem was put on the index after that particular Pope died, I saw that explained too many times to even comment, as with the screws and screwdrivers. There were plenty of long quotes. Everyone posting here has an agenda.
 
As you said, it was Father Gabriel’s book not the Poem itself. It cannot be honestly construed as an endorsment to authenticty to the Poem that is a stretch.
then no sincere catholic can say it would be bad for them to read it.
An illogical assumption for there can be honest disagreement with that statement. Is it harmful? Just look at the op statement that group has fallen into heresy over the book.
 
Reading through the posts, .
Very selective reading. Pope Pius XII never issued an imprimatur as proven that it was condemned during his life time, nine years before his death.
as with the screws and screwdrivers. There were plenty of long quotes.
You are aware that the PotMG has screws when they were not invented at that time?
Yes I have an agenda the Truth.
 
You are arguing in favor of the Poems copy protection and against a Papal order that was well witnessed and documented? Aren’t we getting a little silly? The word screw or screws as the little gadget to fasten stuff with is never used in the Poem, you are getting bad info.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top