I Need Help with Poem of the Man-God

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adrift said:
As you said, it was Father Gabriel’s book not the Poem itself. It cannot be honestly construed as an endorsment to authenticty to the Poem that is a stretch.
An illogical assumption for there can be honest disagreement with that statement. Is it harmful? Just look at the op statement that group has fallen into heresy over the book.
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Thank you for your comments adrift however I must comment on the following. Father Gabriel’s book is titled, The Virgin Mary In the Writings of Maria Valtorta. While I haven’t read the book I think it would be logical for Father Gabriel’s book to endorse Poem of the Man-God. Going on that basis, if there were errors in Poem of the Man-God then I can’t see how Pope Paul VI would endorse a book that supports Poem of the Man-God. Certainly as Pope, Pope Paul VI wouldn’t need a commission to know error. He is eminently capable of seeing that himself. If he truly endorsed Father Gabriel’s book then I can’t see how it can be truly bad.

As for the “group” I will reserve judgement to God
 
Liz101 said:
You are arguing in favor of the Poems copy protection and against a Papal order that was well witnessed and documented? Aren’t we getting a little silly? The word screw or screws as the little gadget to fasten stuff with is never used in the Poem, you are getting bad info.
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Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195,
The so called Papal order has been disproven. Pope John condemned it as did the current Pope. That should have ended it.
 
Now I understand, Pope Paul VI endorsed a book that endorses heresy. It all makes sense now.

I just looked it up, she says “some small screwdrivers”. They are probably some tools like a chisel or something. Jesus does not use them in the text. There are no mentions of screws. So what, Scientist in Athens, Greece found a 2,000 year old astronomical gismo with gears and springs having the size and complexity of a Swiss Watch. Maybe they put it together with some little screw drivers.

“A team including British, Greek and U.S. scientists used specially developed X-ray scanning and imaging technology to analyze the corroded bronze, revealing hidden machinery and a form of written user’s manual. “We have used the latest technology available to understand this mechanism, yet the technological quality in this mechanism puts us to shame,” project leader Mike Edmunds, professor of astronomy at Cardiff University. “If the ancient Greeks made this, what else could they do?” He spoke at a two-day conference that opened in Athens on Thursday. The team’s findings also were published in Nature magazine. Known as the Antikythera Mechanism - from the island off which the Roman ship sank - the assemblage of cogs and wheels looks like the innards of a very badly maintained grandfather clock. But the first clockwork devices appeared more than a thousand years later in Western Europe. “It was a pocket calculator of the time,” said John Seiradakis, a professor of astronomy at the University of Thessaloniki who served on the international team. Ever since its discovery a century ago, the complex mechanism has baffled scientists.
 
Liz101 said:
That would make the screwdriver an additional proof of the Poem!
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The purpose of this thread is not to support or give proof of the Poem of the Man-God. It is to deal with the OP’s question which is
However, the group I am dealing with,…claim that the Bishops of today have failed to realize that the Poem is divine revelation. They claim it is an error to say that “private revelations” do not need to be believed, but the Poem is supposed to be public, it should be believed. Also, they would claim the Poem to be of “post Apolstolic revelation.”
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The claim that the Poem is not private revelation is a heresy. The Chuch has spoken and has said that all public revelation ended with the Apostles.
They claim that it is a post Apostolic revelation which is also a heresy. How do you deal with a group that is so hell bent in preaching heresy. They have discarded Church authority and have substitued their own. Anyone who has read this thread is aware that telling them the obvious, that it was put on the index and the present Pope has said that even though the index has been abolished it didn’t suddenly make all those books o.k. to read, that the evidence that two Pope’s supported it is skimpy they ignore it. So I wish the OP luck but your butting your head against people who want to believe at all cost despite what the Church rules.
 
Mousey said:
The purpose of this thread is not to support or give proof of the Poem of the Man-God. It is to deal with the OP’s question which is

The claim that the Poem is not private revelation is a heresy. The Chuch has spoken and has said that all public revelation ended with the Apostles.
They claim that it is a post Apostolic revelation which is also a heresy. How do you deal with a group that is so hell bent in preaching heresy. They have discarded Church authority and have substitued their own. Anyone who has read this thread is aware that telling them the obvious, that it was put on the index and the present Pope has said that even though the index has been abolished it didn’t suddenly make all those books o.k. to read, that the evidence that two Pope’s supported it is skimpy they ignore it. So I wish the OP luck but your butting your head against people who want to believe at all cost despite what the Church rules.
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Thanks for your post mousey. I had almost forgotten that “claim” that the publishers made (assuming that they indeed said it as I haven’t seen it on the Valtorta website valtorta.org) but as you can see, hundreds of posts later the book does get talked about and assuming that Pope Paul VI did endorse Father Gabriel’s book then it goes a LONG way to answer Valtorta’s critics.
 
I read most of the messages, so far I don’t think anyone on this forum or message board placed Private Revelation over Public Revelation. That’s just nuts. Private Revelation is just an additional gift, there is nothing wrong with avoiding or not believing it. Just don’t throw stones at those who enjoy this gift. "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.” God didn’t chop us off 2,000 years ago, and He is not dead. But any group claiming that the Poem is greater than Public Revelation got their priorities mixed up. I know a lot of Poem enthusiasts, but none that took it to that level.

As far as Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter, I still feel the original Pius the twelfth’s order came first. I think it was unwise for him to contradict a previous Pope. Maybe he was concerned about groups placing greater value on Private Revelation than Public Revelation. That would make a little more sense, I could see that point.
 
Mousey said:
The purpose of this thread is not to support or give proof of the Poem of the Man-God. It is to deal with the OP’s question which is

The claim that the Poem is not private revelation is a heresy. The Chuch has spoken and has said that all public revelation ended with the Apostles.
They claim that it is a post Apostolic revelation which is also a heresy. How do you deal with a group that is so hell bent in preaching heresy. They have discarded Church authority and have substitued their own. Anyone who has read this thread is aware that telling them the obvious, that it was put on the index and the present Pope has said that even though the index has been abolished it didn’t suddenly make all those books o.k. to read, that the evidence that two Pope’s supported it is skimpy they ignore it. So I wish the OP luck but your butting your head against people who want to believe at all cost despite what the Church rules.
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Having re-read the OP it must be noted that it was a “group” in Atanatar’s diocese. What they believe has no real bearing on the authenticity of The Poem of the Man-God
 
I typed out the Annunciation to show how the Poem augments the Gospel. I’m sure that we would all love if a TV camera crew could go back in time and follow Jesus in His daily life. That is why people love movie depictions such as “Jesus of Nazareth” and the “Passion of Christ”. I hope that when we are in Heaven that we will be able to see the day-to-day life of Jesus as Maria Valtorta did. I read the entire Poem while carefully comparing it with the “New Catholic Study Bible St. Jerome addition”, and it flows beautifully and I could find no errors or inaccuracies . I thought I found something when the Three Kings visited the holy family in a hospitable home in Bethlehem. I always thought this took place at the stable. But I found in Matthew 2 11 “They went into the house”. It turned out to be just another confirmation.
 
I was very encouraged at discovering this forum, it provides a conduit for those who have benefited from Valtorta’s writings to debate and dialog with critics and detractors of this work, rendering this site to be distinctly American. I take this opportunity to address all those who have defended Valtorta on this site to bestow my respect and honor. You are a credit to this Great Nation of ours. God has called you here, like many of those miraculously healed in the Gospel, to the deniers, the uncertain, or the denigrators of this miracle, whom God uses because He takes pleasure in indigence to bewilder and mortify the proud. You may say, “I do not know who He is. I know that I was desolate and miserable, and He has healed me in soul and in body.” And you can particularly make the luminous statement of the man born blind, to those who reproach him for having received his sight from a reprobate: “I don’t know if He is a sinner, but I know this alone: that I was blind and now I see. Ever since the world began, there has never been talk of someone’s opening the eyes of a man born blind. If the one who healed me were not God, He couldn’t have done it.”
That is how you can reply to those insinuating doubts about the spokeswoman: “We don’t know what she is. We know only that she has healed our spirits. Ever since the world began, there has never been talk of the devil’s having opened the eyes of one who was in sin to the Light of God. If the one who healed us were not an instrument of God, her pages would not have been able to convert us.
 
The Birth of Our Lord Jesus.
Code: 
I still see the inside of the poor stony shelter, where Mary and Joseph have found refuge, sharing the lot of some animals.

The little fire is dozing together with its guardian.  Mary lifts Her head slowly from her bed and looks around.  She sees that Joseph’s head is bowed over his chest, as if he were meditating, and She thinks that his good intention to remain awake has been overcome by tiredness.  She smiles lovingly and making less noise than a butterfly alighting on a rose, She sits up and then goes on Her knees.  She prays with a blissful smile on Her face.  She prays with Her arms stretched out, almost in the shape of a cross, with the palms of Her hands facing up and forward, and She never seems to tire in that position.  She then prostrates Herself with Her face on the hay, in an even more ardent prayer.  A long prayer.

Joseph rouses.  He notices that the fire is almost out and the stable almost dark.  He throws a handful of very slender heath on the fire and the flames are revived, he then adds some thicker twigs and finally some sticks, because the cold is really biting: the cold of a serene winter night that comes into the ruins from everywhere.  Poor Joseph must be frozen sitting as he is near the door, if we can call a door the hole where Joseph’s mantle serves as a curtain.  He warms his hands near the fire, then takes his sandals off and warms his feet.  When the fire is gaily blazing and its light is steady, he turns around.  But he does not see anything, not even Mary’s white veil that formed a clear line on the dark hay.  He gets up and slowly moves towards Her pallet.

“Are You not sleeping, Mary?” he asks.

He asks Her three times until She turns around and replies: “I am praying.”

“Is there anything you need?”

“No, Joseph.”

“Try and sleep a little.  At least try and rest.”

“I will try.  But I don’t get tired praying.”

“God be with You, Mary.”

“And with you, Joseph.”

Mary resumes Her position.  Joseph to avoid falling asleep, goes on his knees near the fire and prays.  He prays with his hands pressed against his face.  He removes them now and again to feed the fire and then resumes his ardent prayer.  Apart from the noise of the crackling sticks and the noise made now and again by the donkey stamping its hooves on the ground, no other sound is heard.

A thin ray of moonlight creeps in through a crack in the vault and seems a blade of unearthly silver looking for Mary.  It stretches is length as the moon climbs higher in the sky and at last reaches Her.  It is now on Her head, where it forms a halo of pure light.

Mary lifts Her head, as if She had a celestial call, and She gets up and goes on to Her knees again.  Oh!  How beautiful it is here now!  She raises Her head, and Her face shines in the white moonlight and becomes transfigured by a supernatural smile.  What does She see?  What does She hear?  What does She feel?  She is the only one who can tell what She saw, heard and felt in the radiant hour of Her Maternity.  I can only see that the light around Her is increasing more and more.  It seems to come down from Heaven, to arise from the poor things around Her, above all it seems to originate from Herself.

Her deep blue dress now seems of a pale myosotis blue, and Her hands and face are becoming clear blue as if they were placed under the glare of a huge sapphire.  This hue is spreading more and more on the things around Her, it covers them, purifies them brightens everything.  It reminds me, although it is somewhat softer, of the hue I see in the vision of holy Paradise, and also of the color I saw in the visit of the Wise Men.

The light is given off more and more intensely from Mary’s body, it absorbs the moonlight.  She seems to be drawing to Herself all the light that can descend from Heaven.  She is now the Depositary of the Light.  She is to give this Light to the world.  And this blissful, uncontainable, immeasurable, eternal, divine Light which is about to be given, is heralded by a dawn, a morning star, a chorus of atoms of Light that increase continuously like a tide, and rise more and more like incense, and descend like a large stream and stretch out like veils.

The vault, full of crevices, of cobwebs, of protruding rubble balanced by a miracle of physics, the dark, smoky repellant vault, now seems the ceiling of a royal hall.  Each boulder is a block of silver, each crack an opal flash, each cobweb a most precious canopy interwoven with silver and diamonds.  A huge green lizard, hibernating between two stones, seems an emerald jewel forgotten there by a queen: and a bunch of hibernating bats is like a precious onyx chandelier.  The hay from the upper manger is no longer grass blades: it is pure silver wires quivering in the air with the grace of loose hair.
 
The dark wood of the lower manger is a block of burnished silver. The walls are covered with a brocade in which the white silk disappears under the pearly embroidery of the relief, and the soil. What is the soil now? It is crystal lit up by a white light. Its protrusions are like roses thrown in homage of the soil; the holes are precious cups from which perfumes and scents are to arise.
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And the light increases more and more.  It is now unbearable to the eye.  And the Virgin disappears in so much light, as if She had been absorbed by an incandescent curtain.  And the Mother emerges.

Yes.  When the light becomes endurable once again to my eyes, I see Mary with the new born Son in Her arms.  A little Baby, rosy and plump, bustling with His little hands as big as rose buds and kicking with His tiny feet that could be contained in the hollow of the heart of a rose: and is crying with a thin trembling voice, just like a new born little lamb, opening His pretty little mouth that resembles a wild strawberry, and showing a tiny tongue that trembles against the rosy roof of His mouth.  And He moves His little head that is so blond that it seems without any hair, a little round head that His Mummy holds in the hollow of Her hand, while She looks at Her Baby and adores Him weeping and smiling and at the same time, and She bends down to kiss Him not on His innocent head, but on the center of His chest, where underneath there is His little heart beating for us.  Where one day there will be the Wound.  And the Mother is doctoring that wound in advance, with Her immaculate kiss.

The ox, woken up by the dazzling light, gets up with a great noise of hooves and bellows, the donkey turns its head around and brays.  It is the light that rouses them, but I love to think that they wanted to greet their Creator, both for themselves and on behalf of all the animals.

Also Joseph, who almost enrapture, was praying so ardently as to be isolated from what was around him, now rouses and he sees the strange light filter through the fingers of his hands pressed against his face.  He removes his hands, lifts his head and turns around.  The ox, standing as it is , hides Mary.  But She calls him: “Joseph, come.”

Joseph rushes.  And when he sees, he stops, struck by reverence, and he is about to fall on his knees where he is.  But Mary insists: “Come, Joseph” and She leans on the hay with Her left hand and, holding the Child close to Her heart with Her right one, She gets up and moves towards Joseph, who is walking embarrassed, because of the conflict in him between his desire to go and his fear of being irreverent.

They meet at the foot of the straw bed and they look at each other, weeping blissfully.

“Come, let us offer Jesus to the Father” says Mary.  And while Joseph kneels down, She stands up between two trunks supporting the vault, She lifts up Her Creature in Her arms and says: “Here I am.  On His behalf, O God, I speak these words to You: here I am to do Your will.  And I, Mary, and My spouse, Joseph, with Him.  Here are Your servants, O Lord.  May Your will always be done by us, in every hour, in every event, for Your glory and Your love.”

Then Mary bends down and says: “Here, Joseph, take Him”, and offers him the Child.

“What!  I?  Me?  Oh, no!  I am not worthy!”  Joseph is utterly dumbfounded at the idea of having to touch God.

But Mary insists smiling: “You are well worthy.  No one is more worthy than you are, and that is why the Most High chose you.  Take Him Joseph, and hold Him while I look for the linens.”

Joseph, blushing almost purple, stretches his arms out and takes the Baby, Who is screaming because of the cold and when he has Him in his arms, he no longer persists in the in the intention of holding Him far from himself, out of respect, but he presses Him to his heart and bursts into tears exclaiming: “Oh!  Lord!  My God!”  And he bends down to kiss His tiny feet and feels them cold.  He then sits on the ground, and holds Him close to his chest and with his brown tunic and his hands he tries to cover Him, and warm Him, defending him from the bitterly cold wind of the night.  He would like to go near the fire, but there is a cold draft there coming in from the door.  It is better to stay where he is.  No, it is better to go between the two animals which serve as a protection against the air and give warmth.  Thus, he goes between the ox and the donkey, with his back to the door, bending over the New Born to form with his body a shelter, the two sides of which are a gray head with long ears, and a huge white muzzle with a steaming nose and two gentle soft eyes.
 
Mary has opened the trunk and pulled out the linens and swaddling clothes. She has been near the fire warming them. She now moves towards Joseph and envelops the Baby with lukewarm linen and then with Her veil to protect His little head. “Where shall we put Him now?” She asks.
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Joseph looks around, thinking.  “Wait” he says.  “Let us move the animals and their hay over here, we will then pull down that hay up there and arrange it in here.  The wood on the side will protect Him from the air, the hay will serve as a pillow and the ox will warm Him a little with its breath.  The ox is better than the donkey.  It is more patient and quiet.”  And he bustles about, while Mary is lulling the Baby, holding Him close to Her heart, and laying Her cheek on His tiny head to warm it.

Joseph makes up the fire, without economy this time, to have a good blaze, and he warms the hay and as it dries up, he keeps it near his chest, so it will not get cold.  Then, when he has gathered enough to make a little mattress for the Child, he goes to the manger and sorts it out as if it were a cradle.  “It is ready” he says.  “Now we would need a blanket, because the hay stings, and also to cover Him.”

“Take My mantle” says Mary.

“You will be cold.”

“Oh!  It does not matter!  The blanket is too coarse.  The mantle is soft and warm.  I am not cold at all.  Don’t let Him suffer any longer!”

Joseph takes the wide mantle of soft dark blue wool, he double folds it and lays it on the hay, leaving a strip hanging out of the manger.  The first bed for the Savior is ready.

And the Mother, with Her sweet, graceful gait, moves to the manger, lays Him in it, and covers Him with the strip of Her mantle.  She arranges it also around His bare head, almost completely covered by the hay, from which it is protected only by Mary’s thin veil.  Only His little face, the size of a man’s fist, is left uncovered.  Mary and Joseph, bending over the manger, are blissfully happy watching Him sleep His first sleep, because the warmth of the clothes and of the hay has appeased His crying, and made Him sleepy.
 
this thread deserves to die. longest thread on what is supposed to be a banned topic, unapproved private revelation, on these boards. too bad it did not get wiped out in the crash. you people cannot find enough in the wealth of spiritual writing that is the heritage of the Church to keep you going, you have to go looking elsewhere for your inspiration? go back to the spiritual classics, or even the works of JPII which are enough spiritual reading to last a lifetime, or the ancient practice of lectio divina and learn what God has to say to us from God himself. now there’s a suggestion.
 
Annie-

I don’t know…a few years ago, Bud McFarlane wrote several books that became Catholic bestsellers. **Pierced by a Sword, **and Conceived Without Sin were two of his titles.

The purpose of these books is to inspire…no one mistakes them for anything other than fiction.

I have not read the Poem of the Man God, but I am somewhat familiar with its background.

While I do recognize the danger that some will take it as absolute fact, I wonder if there is not some advantage in reading books that inspire us to greater devotion.

It would be better, perhaps, than a steady diet of NY Times bestsellers, eh?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Annie-
It would be better, perhaps, than a steady diet of NY Times bestsellers, eh?
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I was suggesting classics of Catholic spiritual reading that have stood the test of time, and do not challenge or attempt to supersede Church teaching, not Danielle Steele.
 
I was praying and hoping that posting this lovely Christmas vision would not be tantamount to the Gospel passage: “Do not give what is holy to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7:6).
 
puzzleannie said:
I was suggesting classics of Catholic spiritual reading that have stood the test of time, and do not challenge or attempt to supersede Church teaching, not Danielle Steele.
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I understand…and I’ve changed my position after reading an article about the **Poem of the Man God **by Colin Donovan which reads in part:“So, quite apart from any supposed value that these writings have for helping the faith of Catholics is the promotion of the tendency to self-judgement in areas already judged by the hierarchical authority of the Church. Since the duty of submission to the Magisterium is part of the divine constitution of the Church and necessary for salvation, whereas, private revelations (even authentic ones, which this is not) cannot oblige in faith, it should be an easy call what the loyal Catholic should do. Is it forbidden? In the strict canonical sense (legal prohibition and sanctions for violating), no. Is it grossly imprudent to read things which the Church has discouraged in the strongest terms? Yes. Is it a bad use of time when there are writings of the Magisterium, of the saints and the Catechism that are not being read? Absolutely.”
Thanks for making me think a little deeper, Annie. 👍
 
Self judgement? Not at all, the original Papal Judgement. The Church hierarchy is the very basis of those who support the Poem. I think that most Catholics are well aware that a Pope has higher authority than Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests, Nuns, et cetera. Since when can the Magisterium overturn a Papal Order by Pope Pius XII to publish this work, as witnessed and documented by the sworn testimony of three Priests of high standing, and a letter of testimony by the Cardinal who held the position of Vatican Recorder of that time? I find it amazing that there are people that have difficulty accepting evidence of that stature. But, as demonstrated in this forum, these people do exist. I don’t know what additional certification anyone could possibly require? Perhaps a direct documentation of the event by a television news crew? The year was 1948, CNN and Fox News were not around. Please take it easy on those who can have confidence in the sworn testimony of the original Papal order. And also consider, that’s only one Pope. Don’t forget posting 315 regarding the Papal endorsement letter by Pope Paul VI for Father Gabriel Roschini’s book: “The Virgin Mary In the Writings of Maria Valtorta”. This is an endorsement of a Book that strongly endorses the Poem. Mariologist Father Gabriel Roschini, a professor from the “Marianum” Pontifical Faculty of Theology in Rome and advisor to the Holy Office, was commissioned to scrutinize and discredit the Poem. After careful review, he was transformed to a firm supporter. His book is an incredible Saul to Paul story!

Read some of the previous postings. The Poem was under attack by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, who placed it on the forbidden book list out of spite, because he was irate at being bypassed. He was unquestionably well known for being an enthusiastic challenger Papal authority, particularly as outlined by Cannon Law. As far as Cardinal Ratzinger, he was groomed by Cardinal Ottaviani to be his successor. Obviously when he was asked, he refrained from nullifying the judgement of his former mentor.
 
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