I need historical evidence

[JRKH]

Actually, Jesus having blood relatives is a relatively recent doctrinal development. The reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli et al) believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. The question to ask is: what has happened to interpretation of scripture in the intervening centuries?

While this is true, I really don’t think it is what cooterhein was trying to convey…
His point is that one must try to recognize the “mental blocks” in the other person in order to try and get a point across.
So - lets try not to let this thread be sidetracked onto PV issues.

cooterhein - Could you provide a link to the thread you mention?

Peace
James

 

[Uranage]

gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

 

[po18guy]

While this is true, I really don’t think it is what cooterhein was trying to convey…
His point is that one must try to recognize the “mental blocks” in the other person in order to try and get a point across.
So - lets try not to let this thread be sidetracked onto PV issues.

cooterhein - Could you provide a link to the thread you mention?

Peace
James

Please forgive my gutter sniping. It’s part of my cross to bear.

 

[cooterhein]

Actually, Jesus having blood relatives is a relatively recent doctrinal development. The reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli et al) believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. The question to ask is: what has happened to interpretation of scripture in the intervening centuries?

You do realize this belief existed long before the Reformation.

 

[BigWorldParty]

First, ask them for their historical evidence that God does not exist. The burden is upon them.

Actually, it is not the atheist burden to prove a god does not exist. (And we don’t prove a negative.) Rather, it is the burden of the person making the positive claim - in this case that a particular god exists. That person bares the burden of proof to support the claim.

 

[PJM]

=trmyjs;7813444]Today at school my atheist friend made the comment “there’s no historical evidence of Jesus, Mary, or Joseph”. Obviously, I disagreed and gave him a quick summary on the Shroud of Turin. We didn’t discuss this too much since the subject changed. However, I feel that this will eventually come up again and I need to know what to say. Any examples of historical evidence for Jesus, Mary, or Joseph would be greatly appreciated. Tips on how to handle this type of thing would also be helpful.

My dear friend in Christ;

That is a unfounded statement by your friend. SECULAR HISTORIANS abount with evidence of Christ and His life. Just Google “evidence of Christ”…

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The evidence for the existence of Jesus all comes from after his lifetime. … and archaeological evidence in an attempt to reconstruct the life of Jesus in … In either case, He will not be a Jesus Christ to whom the religion of the …
en.**Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia - Cached **- Similar

Extra-Biblical Historical Evidence of Jesus

For more details of the historical and scientific evidence for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ: Habermas, Gary R. Ancient Evidence for the …
Extra-Biblical Historical Evidence of Jesus - Cached - Similar

Did Jesus Christ Really Live?

Whether Christ did, or did not live, has nothing at all to do with what the churches teach, or with what we believe, It is wholly a matter of evidence. …
**www.infidels.org/library/.../did_jesus_really_live.html - **Cached - Similar

May I suggest an approach to such outrageous claims: Friend “if your so sure of your position; give me evidence of your claims”

Also GOOGLE “List of Popes” and you’ll getn evidence from Saint Peter on; dates and names.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[DGDDavidson]

It might not be the best idea to bring up the Shroud of Turin with an atheist as proof for Jesus’ existence. Even the bishops who first displayed it in the fourteenth century did not think it was the actual burial cloth of Jesus, and if I were an atheist, I would simply ask why nobody appears to have known of the shroud before that time, and dismiss it.

As far as I know, no serious historians doubt that Jesus was an historical person. It might be a good idea to ask your friend where he’s getting this idea that Jesus must not have existed, and go from there.

 

[PJM]

***Originally Posted by cooterhein ***

There’s a very similar sort of conversation happening in the non-Catholic sub-forum, except there, it’s a Catholic who doesn’t believe there’s any evidence of Jesus having blood relatives besides Mary. Look at how Catholics are behaving in that conversation and you might get an idea of what’s going through your friend’s mind. As an atheist, he’s not able to be comfortable with admitting that theistic beliefs are plausible; as Catholics, your “forum brethren” aren’t going to be comfortable with admitting what certain things might indicate about Jesus’ brethren

***And just what evidence might that be my friend?. ***

What is the HARD evidence of such a claim some 2,000 years later?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[edwest2]

Actually, it is not the atheist burden to prove a god does not exist. (And we don’t prove a negative.) Rather, it is the burden of the person making the positive claim - in this case that a particular god exists. That person bares the burden of proof to support the claim.

I encountered this in the 1970s: “God? If you can show me God I might believe in Him.” God does not work like that. The Father draws you to the Son, and then the Holy Spirit completes the process in Baptism.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

I suggest you read this:

allaboutjesuschrist.org/the-case-for-christ.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[ThirstforTruth]

I think I would take him ( the atheist) for a walk to the nearest Catholic Church…and point to it saying…there is all the proof you need! It goes back 2000 years …You (the atheist)
prove to me it does not exist! The books about this Church would fill a library to over-flowing…but you need only read one of them, The Bible! About it also enough books have been written and are still being written today …enough to fill a library to overflowing. Ask do you know who started all this? The subject of these millions of books written…Jesus Christ.
There is historical evidence that such a man existed…the evidence is overwhelmingly huge …again in millions of books. Do you know any other man that can claim this much attention or interest over that many centuries, for whom people died rather than deny Him and are still dying today rather than deny Him.
over 2000 years later? If he is still showing dis-belief offer to pray that the Lord thru His Holy Spirit will enlighten Him but it will still be his choice to believe or not. I would tell him what the consequences would be with either choice impressing upon him that he either chooses life or death. After all this if he still refuses to accept Truth ( it won’t of course happen over night most likely) you have done
all you can ( except continue to pray for his soul). As the proverb states you can lead a
horse to water but you cannot make him drink. Read also Matthew 6:7 who spares not
the “rod” for those who deny Christ in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

 

[honestquestions]

I think I would take him ( the atheist) for a walk to the nearest Catholic Church…and point to it saying…there is all the proof you need! It goes back 2000 years …You (the atheist)
prove to me it does not exist!

Oh boy… The duration of belief has no bearing on whether or not its true. A claim is either as false or true today as it was then. Simply because it stays in existence does not mean it is true. Many other myths have also been passed down. But by your standard of evidence, I’ll go ahead an remind you of the other large religions that have been passed down even longer. An atheist would not deny that the catholic church or any other does not exist. Rather, the argument would be that the actual beliefs are not true.

The books about this Church would fill a library to over-flowing…but you need only read one of them, The Bible!

Why not read the Qu’ran?

There is historical evidence that such a man existed…the evidence is overwhelmingly huge …again in millions of books. Do you know any other man that can claim this much attention or interest over that many centuries, for whom people died rather than deny Him and are still dying today rather than deny Him.
over 2000 years later?

Some atheists may deny his existence, but I don’t. It’s very likely he was a real man claiming to be divine. But the fact that he may have been a good magician in his time and gained followers is not sufficient to prove he is the creator of the universe.

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)
Some atheists may deny his existence, but I don’t. It’s very likely he was a real man claiming to be divine. But the fact that he may have been a good magician in his time and gained followers is not sufficient to prove he is the creator of the universe.

Actually it was his dad who created the universe “through him” (the perfect Word)…

But thank you for this admission. The OP’s question was about “historical proof” of the existance of Jesus, Mary, Joseph et.al.
I’m glad to see that there are unbelievers who recognize and accept biblical texts as being at least equal to other ancient texts from a “historical” viewpoint.

Peace
James

 

[ThirstforTruth]

Oh boy… The duration of belief has no bearing on whether or not its true. A claim is either as false or true today as it was then. Simply because it stays in existence does not mean it is true. Many other myths have also been passed down. But by your standard of evidence, I’ll go ahead an remind you of the other large religions that have been passed down even longer. An atheist would not deny that the catholic church or any other does not exist. Rather, the argument would be that the actual beliefs are not true. That this Church has remained in tact all these long centuries is impressively unique. You have only answered in general …never naming any religions that come close to its longevity. In other words, this fact would/should give it enough gravity to cause one to look more closely to discover why this is true. Also to look closer at its Founder and His claims. You have not named another historical figure that can even come close to Christ in terms of the loyalty and faithfulness of His followers that continues today in as large numbers. Again this is not proof in itself but should prompt further investigation on the part of the sincere seeker. At that point the seeker would begin in all seriousness to read some of the written evidence given throughout history (the books I have mentioned ) Some of them historians such as Pliny, Josephous, as well as the more recent books written by Benedict XVI on Jesus of Nazareth, filled with more references than I can give here. One important point among many others he makes is that it is important to distiquish between the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith…the historical Jesus cannot and does not explain the Jesus as He was in real history!

Why not read the Qu’ran? Because we are addressing the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith it would not be appropriate to select a book about the beliefs promoted about him by Mohammed…who while admitting to His existence does not recognize Him in His fullness as well as the fact that the Qu’ran must necessarily “distort” Biblical truth as well as deny much of it.

Some atheists may deny his existence, but I don’t. It’s very likely he was a real man claiming to be divine. But the fact that he may have been a good magician in his time and gained followers is not sufficient to prove he is the creator of the universe.

Well but you have distorted the truth about Jesus in your earliest premise about Jesus being a “good magician”. No were does He claim to be any sort of magician. Either Jesus was who He said He was…or He was a total madman and liar! He could not claim both! and be believed …This is only logical.

 

[BigWorldParty]

I encountered this in the 1970s: “God? If you can show me God I might believe in Him.” God does not work like that. The Father draws you to the Son, and then the Holy Spirit completes the process in Baptism.

Peace,
Ed

The original commenter indicated the atheist is responsible to prove a god does not exist. It is the other way around. The person claiming a particular god exists (the positive claim), has the burden of supporting that claim with the evidences. If the claim cannot be sufficiently supported, then the person making the claim should not expect others to accept the claim as legitimate. This does not change based on the decade.

It seems you are indicating the evidence does not exist to support a god claim? If that is the case, then it is reasonable to expect the claim not to be taken seriously. I would also add, the claim that a particular god exists, is quite an extraordinary claim. It is reasonable that an extraordinary claim should require extraordinary evidence. That is something to keep in mind, if you wish to have other persons accept that a particular god exists.

 

[edwest2]

The original commenter indicated the atheist is responsible to prove a god does not exist. It is the other way around. The person claiming a particular god exists (the positive claim), has the burden of supporting that claim with the evidences. If the claim cannot be sufficiently supported, then the person making the claim should not expect others to accept the claim as legitimate. This does not change based on the decade.

It seems you are indicating the evidence does not exist to support a god claim? If that is the case, then it is reasonable to expect the claim not to be taken seriously. I would also add, the claim that a particular god exists, is quite an extraordinary claim. It is reasonable that an extraordinary claim should require extraordinary evidence. That is something to keep in mind, if you wish to have other persons accept that a particular god exists.

As I tried to point out, the acceptance of such a claim involves a spiritual component. I’m sure it would not be too difficult to locate articles from former atheists who became Christians. That said, the Catholic Church has been telling the truth about Jesus Christ for 2,000 years. Telling others is job one.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Ignatius]

Today at school my atheist friend made the comment “there’s no historical evidence of Jesus, Mary, or Joseph”.

There are orders of magnitude more extant evidence for Jesus than for many historical figures. There are thousands of pieces of documentary evidence for Christ from not only Christian but Roman, Greek and Hebrew sources of the time. No credible scholar of History seriously doubts His existence.
For example, ask your friend to give evidence for Hannibal of Carthage. There is scant evidence for his existence and that from centuries after his death, yet no scholars doubt his existence.

 

[PJM]

=trmyjs;7813444]Today at school my atheist friend made the comment “there’s no historical evidence of Jesus, Mary, or Joseph”. Obviously, I disagreed and gave him a quick summary on the Shroud of Turin. We didn’t discuss this too much since the subject changed. However, I feel that this will eventually come up again and I need to know what to say. Any examples of historical evidence for Jesus, Mary, or Joseph would be greatly appreciated. Tips on how to handle this type of thing would also be helpful.

The House and place of Christ home in Nathereth is now a SHRINE. That’s solid evidence.

 

[RosaryFan]

Today at school my atheist friend made the comment “there’s no historical evidence of Jesus, Mary, or Joseph”. Obviously, I disagreed and gave him a quick summary on the Shroud of Turin. We didn’t discuss this too much since the subject changed. However, I feel that this will eventually come up again and I need to know what to say. Any examples of historical evidence for Jesus, Mary, or Joseph would be greatly appreciated. Tips on how to handle this type of thing would also be helpful.

“One of the sayings of Jesus of Nazareth was this: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.’”

This quote is taken from Richards Topical Encyclopedia, Volume 13, page 528, copyright 1956, Published by J.A. Richards Publishing Company.

You can tell your atheist friend at school that he might need to look beyond the history book he carries in his backpack for third period.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Corroborating writings.

Critics claim there are no ancient writings about Jesus outside the New Testament. This is another ridiculous claim. Writings confirming His birth, ministry, death and resurrection include Flavius Josephus (A.D.93), the Babylonian Talmud (A.D.70-200), Pliny the Younger’s letter to the Emperor Trajan (approx. A.D.100), the Annals of Tacitus (A.D.115-117), Mara Bar Sarapion (sometime after A.D.73), and Suetonius’ Life of Claudius and Life of Nero (A.D.120)