I need to convince someone that gay marriage is wrong

[Laurent_LUG]

btw: What have they ever done wrong to you ,
you wanna convince someone they are evil ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), november 10, 2008

 

[SimonArizona]

Hey, brilliant essay!!

I read the whole text, and I think it´s an astonishingly lucid explanation of the “usefulness” of the family, from a purely anthropological point of view.

As I read, I thought to myself, “this chap really has a way with words”. When I noticed that the author was Orson Scott-Card I understood why! I used to be into Sci-fi in a BIG way, and this author is one of the best.

This puts to death the whole “America’s not a theocracy” complaint. Yea, but existence is.

 

[Nepenthe]

Mirdath is a jerk, therefore everything Mirdath argues is invalidated? Wow, flagrant ad hominem ahoy.

That happened to be a beautifully constructed, heartfelt, accurate (including by the terms of the RCC even though Mirdath does not agree with their stance) and rather gentle dismantling of your original post - for good reasons - and you can’t seem to handle it. Too bad for you.

Speaking of which weren’t you reminded by Mirdath at the very last to beware the plank in your own eye? Yeah, you were. Yet you had no better answer than to sling mud and hope that would be enough to discredit the argument. That is the basest and most jerklike of all the various rhetorical fallacies. Try harder, since if your skills are this poor, I doubt you could convince anyone the sky is blue without them checking out the window.

But again…you don’t need to convince anyone of anything. You are confusing need with want. That said, if someone was holding an actual loaded gun to your temple, I bet your rhetorical skills would improve very rapidly indeed - for a few minutes at least.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Mirdath, no offense…but you’re kind of a jerk.

Belgarion, don’t worry and don’t feel bad because that post from Mirdath was terrible. As if he is your phychiatrist. You have one thing he doesn’t have…your Catholic faith.

 

[Nepenthe]

Oh? What was so terrible about it? You didn’t LIKE it? Oh sure, that makes it a terrible post, and a great reason to feel good about derisive namecalling. Sorry, again, you’ll have to do better.

I should point out that Mirdath has a considerably more thorough grounding in the philosophy, structure, precepts and procedures of the RCC than most on this forum, whether or not Mirdath is a believer. I would not bother trying to trip him up with that, though so far in this thread, nobody HAS bothered.

 

[happymommy]

It doesn’t seem so much that you ‘need to convince someone that gay marriage is wrong’ somehow, as it does that you want to reassure yourself that you’re right. If you were convinced, wouldn’t you have already educated yourself on the usual excuses as to why it’s an abomination? The sterility/menopause objection is such a basic one that you’d have had it covered as best possible if you’d had any interest in the subject before.

It’s not about your ‘friend’, if one can call him that – at least you sure aren’t being much of a friend to him. It’s about you. You’re uncomfortable with the existence of opposing points of view, but uncertain as to how to deal with them. And so, not having anything else to go on, you try to steamroll it – and you may take my word for it that you’ll fail utterly if you keep going this way.

You think he envies the rights and privileges afforded straight people? Perhaps he does (hell, I would, if I’d fallen in love with someone with a matching set of bits), but you – you’re hardly an innocent yourself; the Church is a hospital for sinners, is it not? Your own sins and shortcomings seem to color your perception of him: pride, in that you will not accept a debate on equal terms; cowardice, in that you run for help to people whom you think may know better how to argue than yourself, instead of facing the question with what courage and conviction you might have; and willful ignorance, in that you refuse to consider your acquaintance’s motives and beliefs at face value, instead imposing your own ideas of what his ‘agenda’ is.

Give up. You are not going to win anything, and you’re only demeaning yourself by trying. The best result I can see from this is that you will become estranged from someone you call a friend. Maybe later you might find it appropriate to talk about the subject – but not until you have done some research and soul-searching of your own. Know why your faith frowns upon other forms of marriage instead of begging for help when you get put on the spot. Understand the difference your faith places between a sterile heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple – even why, to Catholicism, that’s a red herring from the start (between you and me, they’re wrong to consider it so, but… try to figure out why that is for yourself ). And above all, watch out for that plank in your eye.

St Francis of Assisi said ‘preach the gospel always; use words when necessary’. It’s a lesson a lot of Christians could use. Were I you, I’d take it to heart.

This person just asked a question. They never said they were sinless. Maybe they do have a problem with gay marriage, I know I do. That doesn’t mean I haven’t sinned, it’s just calling it as I see it. If they would have asked about stealing I would have called it a sin.

Here’s my take on if it’s a choice or not. It might not be a choice to become gay. It’s a choice to act on it.

I don’t think you are going to win this fight with your “friend”. You aren’t going to change their mind and they will not change yours. So I would either distance yourself from this person if their constant rant about the unfairness towards gay’s really bothers you. Or discuss something else with them. They might be a great person that you are missing out getting to know. Look at it this way, Hate the SIN, not the SINNER. I have a dear friend that is gay and it became a choice for my husband and I, as our children have gotten older, as to how this friendship would work. As much as we feel it is a sin and wrong, our love for him over rides it. And so he is a part of our lives. Our children are still young enough that they think he and his partner are just room mates and I know someday, soon, I’ll have to tell them what is really going on, but I hope they understand about respect. That even though we think it wrong we still love them and it’s not our place to judge. And really it’s not going to be much different from the talk I’m going to have to give them over the fact that my brother is living with his girlfriend with no plans to marry. So you see, life is full of things we think are wrong. I don’t believe that gays should be allowed to marry, It should be between a man and a woman, and I will tell my children that. But we are to love all people doesn’t mean with have to agree with them!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Oh? What was so terrible about it? You didn’t LIKE it? Oh sure, that makes it a terrible post, and a great reason to feel good about derisive namecalling. Sorry, again, you’ll have to do better.

I should point out that Mirdath has a considerably more thorough grounding in the philosophy, structure, precepts and procedures of the RCC than most on this forum, whether or not Mirdath is a believer. I would not bother trying to trip him up with that, though so far in this thread, nobody HAS bothered.

Oh please…his “phschological” evaluation of this guy when he doesn’t even know him, trying to tell him how he thinks and feels. That isn’t right. And if he is so knowledgeable in the Roman Catholic church, yet still isn’t a believer, isn’t that a sin in itself? For to know the full truth of the church that Jesus Christ founded, he would be Catholic.
BTW, I love how people say how others are so “learned” in the faith and they’re not even believers…good grief…

 

[Nepenthe]

Thanks, happymommy! Yeah, it was a little tough, the way Mirdath deconstructed the posts, but it was in the interest of being thorough (and in fact, in the interest of kindness and charity), nothing mean-spirited, I can assure you.

And OneTrueCathApos, Mirdath did NOT psychologically evaluate Belgarion, nor have I. How could we? But we can logically evaluate the content of the posts - that’s all that was done. And no, someone not being a member of your faith does not render their arguments invalid in temporal matters. What you believe without recourse to reason has nothing whatever to do with the processes of civil discourse.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Thanks, happymommy! Yeah, it was a little tough, the way Mirdath deconstructed the posts, but it was in the interest of being thorough (and in fact, in the interest of kindness and charity), nothing mean-spirited, I can assure you.

And OneTrueCathApos, Mirdath did NOT psychologically evaluate Belgarion, nor have I. How could we? But we can logically evaluate the content of the posts - that’s all that was done. And no, someone not being a member of your faith does not render their arguments invalid in temporal matters. What you believe without recourse to reason has nothing whatever to do with the processes of civil discourse.

In other words, Christ doesn’t matter…

 

[Nepenthe]

Well, you certainly aren’t doing your religion any favors by not knowing how to discuss it and its positions rigorously.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Actually a couple facts for you: In Canada if you even read a scripture about homosexuality even inside of your own sanctuary you can be fined.

And as for judging: 1 Corinthians 5:12

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

Just like the bible says you will judge a man by his fruit. As for those outside of the church, do you watch a blind man walk over the edge of a cliff and not try to re-direct him?

did you know there is an organization (that the government does not stop) called NAMBLA North American Man/Boy Love Association one of their soul purposes is to rape young boys.

Did you know that these organizations target the Catholic Church and are winning, there in part with abortion which happens to be higher in the church than in the world about 54% i believe.

Also Jesus would not have been catholic (which means universal christian church) because Jesus is not religion. In fact the disciples called themselves followers of the way.

 

[Nepenthe]

I must say, if that really is the censorship policy in Canada, I am appalled.

That being said, according to the RCC, there’s wickedness, which all of us have, and then there is REALLY bad stuff. I can think of many, many homosexual, bisexual, and even asexual (though they are quite rare) people who have produced marvelous fruit via their talents and intellect. Just to give a quick example of each - Alan Turing (gay, though quiet about it), Oscar Wilde (actually bisexual, though often perceived as gay - poor guy lost the love of his life, a brilliant young woman herself, to of all people, Bram Stoker), and for the last I’ll give two, since they get so little representation - Jorge Luis Borges and Nikola Tesla. And that’s just the men and a tiny few picks at that!

Besides, what you quoted came from the, uh, sorta-apostle Paul, not Jesus. I’d go with Jesus here, especially the ‘judge not lest ye be judged’ bit, since that needs no lucubration. So many people, of all ways of life and love have contributed immensely to the wonder and celebration of the world and of humanity, and indeed, if you like, God, and it would not only be a shame to shun them, but a specific disobedience to that individual Catholics and other Christians call ‘Lord’.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Fruit does not mean just creating anything, it means something that will not be cut down and thrown into the fire. What do you consider really bad stuff?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Well, you certainly aren’t doing your religion any favors by not knowing how to discuss it and its positions rigorously.

I discuss it rather well. When you are educated in the Catholic church and it’s history, and have such passion as I do, and have as much faith in Jesus Christ as I do, then come talk to me.

 

[Nepenthe]

Heh, actually I too know Catholic teaching and history rather well myself. But if people have to agree with you before discussing anything, why would anyone bother talking about such matters with you, or you with them? Talk about fruitless!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Heh, actually I too know Catholic teaching and history rather well myself. But if people have to agree with you before discussing anything, why would anyone bother talking about such matters with you, or you with them? Talk about fruitless!

I don’t expect people to agree with me. They should agree to historical facts and documented cases concerning the Catholic church. If you are extremely knowledgeable about the church that Christ founded, why aren’t you in it?

 

[Nepenthe]

Because I do not have the same ideas and perceptions about the very nature of ‘belief’ as you do, I would guess. That, however, is going waaaaay off topic, so, perhaps another time.

And to FollowTheWay…in the most obtuse way I can put it without being completely without content, I would break it down in to crimes against others (ie, use of force, victimization, etc), as opposed to acts between consenting adults. Believe it or don’t my system of ethics is not very different from many peoples’ on this board, though it is rather streamlined, and I approach it from a different starting point. As one poster said, there are far more hideous acts being committed all the time than any sexual behavior between consenting adults going on every second of every day - why obsess over this relatively petty quibble (and yes, it is a quibble)? Setting one’s sights higher would be admirable.

I am simplifying drastically, but not overly so, I think. Also, this thread is not about me anyway - but you asked.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Because I do not have the same ideas and perceptions about the very nature of ‘belief’ as you do, I would guess. That, however, is going waaaaay off topic, so, perhaps another time.

And to FollowTheWay…in the most obtuse way I can put it without being completely without content, I would break it down in to crimes against others (ie, use of force, victimization, etc), as opposed to acts between consenting adults. Believe it or don’t my system of ethics is not very different from many peoples’ on this board, though it is rather streamlined, and I approach it from a different starting point. As one poster said, there are far more hideous acts being committed all the time than any sexual behavior between consenting adults going on every second of every day - why obsess over this relatively petty quibble (and yes, it is a quibble)? Setting one’s sights higher would be admirable.

I am simplifying drastically, but not overly so, I think. Also, this thread is not about me anyway - but you asked.

And that’s reason for not being in the church Christ founded?

 

[Nepenthe]

Yes. And frankly, from having read the bible quite closely, and learning about the RCC’s interpretation, that’s just fine even by their lights, even if it’s not precisely how they might prefer. As I have stated elsewhere, though I have never subscribed to any faith, I was educated by (and in many ways besides the didactic, raised by) Jesuit monks, that is not a terrible thing. Indeed, they accorded me much respect for my humanitarianism and love of learning, including my interest in and my willingness to experiment with different styles of thinking.

I may not have the ‘faith gland’ or whatever it is, but that does not make me inhuman, or subhuman, or anything alien. It’s just, well, the way I roll, and it neither breaks your bones nor picks your pocket, so relax.

Once again, this thread is not about me, or about you either. Start another if you are so inclined, and I will do my best - although I do have an injured wrist, so my answers may be somewhat terse I fear.

 

[PatV]

Just let them be. And, for my final contribution, let me just say that I have been blessed with a beautiful son. I thank God every day for him, wise beyond his years and with a social consciousness that is every widening. He is also left-handed and gay. It is not a choice. First hand, I can tell you this. So, please, just let them be. And I address this also to the hierarchy. Let them be.
Just A Mom!!!