I reject some dogmas

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Whemsworth said:
There are plenty of ancient figures whose burial places are unknown. That is hardly sufficient, but thanks for the comment.
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I don’t think you are understanding that this isn’t just an ancient figure it’s the mother of Christ and if she had a tomb we would know where it was and it would be venerated 24/7. We know where Christ was born, baptized, crucified, buried and ascended. Her tomb would absolutely be known.
 
Whemsworth said:
Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.
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While I wouldn’t dare be the one to say you were excommunicated I will say this without doubt, I believe at the end of your life you will have plenty of time to figure out everything there is to know about purgatory.
 
JohnAlexander said:
So if you think it is wrong, then you must conclude that the Church is just a church, not THE Church. So if you are honest with yourself you should leave.
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I’m always a little surprised at how many Catholics here in CAF advise other Catholics to just leave the Church if they disagree with something.
 
RPRPsych said:
A quick forum search reveals that this dude has only made 5 posts of a similar nature.

I call troll. 😛
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I have asked before. This thread has actaully given me some answers. The others…not so much.
 
Whemsworth said:
Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.
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I’m surprised you’re so fixated on those 2 doctrines. Especially since both are in scripture.

But let’s start out with definition

2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Are you baptized?

How does Paul deal with someone who is baptized AND guilty of heretical beliefs?

(link is operational)
[ Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)
“As for a man who is factious ( [αἱρετικὸν (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm) heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

"Some excommunications, however, are automatic (effective at the moment the act is committed) and without the intervention of the Church. Catholics are automatically excommunicated for committing these offenses:
  • Procuring of abortion
  • Apostasy: The total rejection of the Christian faith.
  • Heresy: The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth, which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.
  • Schism: The rejection of the authority and jurisdiction of the pope as head of the Church.
  • Desecration of sacred species (Holy Communion)
  • Physical attack on the pope
  • Sacramental absolution of an accomplice in sin against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments
  • Unauthorized episcopal (bishop) consecration
  • Direct violation of confessional seal by confessor"
From dummies.com/how-to/content/catholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html
 
Whemsworth said:
Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.
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I’m not sure I’m following your line of query. You say you reject them but in the next sentence you say “I don’t doubt them” I.e. You believe them. So pardon my ignorance in not understanding how you can believe and reject at the same time. Could you clarify?

Peace and God bless
Nicene
 
steve_b said:
I’m surprised you’re so fixated on those 2 doctrines. Especially since both are in scripture.

But let’s start out with definition

2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Are you baptized?

How does Paul deal with someone who is baptized AND guilty of heretical beliefs?

(link is operational)
[Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)
“As for a man who is factious ( [α (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm)ἱρετικὸ****ν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

"Some excommunications, however, are automatic (effective at the moment the act is committed) and without the intervention of the Church. Catholics are automatically excommunicated for committing these offenses:
  • Procuring of abortion
  • Apostasy: The total rejection of the Christian faith.
  • Heresy: The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth, which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.
  • Schism: The rejection of the authority and jurisdiction of the pope as head of the Church.
  • Desecration of sacred species (Holy Communion)
  • Physical attack on the pope
  • Sacramental absolution of an accomplice in sin against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments
  • Unauthorized episcopal (bishop) consecration
  • Direct violation of confessional seal by confessor"
From dummies.com/how-to/content/catholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html
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Both doctrines are nowhere in scripture. Thus the question.
 
Nicene said:
I’m not sure I’m following your line of query. You say you reject them but in the next sentence you say “I don’t doubt them” I.e. You believe them. So pardon my ignorance in not understanding how you can believe and reject at the same time. Could you clarify?

Peace and God bless
Nicene
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Because I have been told that doubting them is normal. I don’t doubt them, but deny them.
 
Rau said:
Do you understand the assumption, or do you accept it but not understand it?
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I absolutely understand it and actually meditate on it regularly while praying the Glorious decades of the rosary. I’ve pictured Christ in my mind coming and “waking” His mother then escorting her personally to the Holy Father. It’s one of my favorites and feel it enriches my life and brings me closer to Christ and the Holy Mother.

There is zero doubt in my mind it happened, was absolute beautiful and celebrated vigorously in Heaven.
 
I’m just curious, did you read the link I posted? There’s no rush, I just want to make sure you didn’t miss it.

Here’s also a couple of thoughts. In the end of John’s Gospel, he mentions that Jesus performed many other signs and wonders that he did not detail, but if he did, there would not be enough books to fill them. Does that make these miracles any less miraculous because they are not specifically mentioned in the Bible?

If we took your logic to an extreme, we can say Jesus fathered children. The Bible doesn’t say he didn’t, so why not? But this would be ridiculous to claim. So why is it that the Bible, compiled centuries after her Assumption (or death had she died), have to mention it? Even then, the Bible doesn’t even say she died, so if the Bible is what you’re using to prove her Assumption or death, you can do neither, because neither event is mentioned.

How could the tomb containing the vessel that carried God in the flesh go missing for two millennia? How could no one not go into detail about her death and burial if she died? Why do we have no records of pilgrimages made to her tomb? Why do the Church Fathers not give even a passing thought on this or her death, or the obvious tragedy it would be that we lost her tomb entirely after not even a couple centuries?

EDIT: Spelling and added point.
 
Whemsworth said:
It is not just now croppiing up. It is something that came about 5 years ago. I have read, studied, bought tapes, but seems contrary to scripture. I know that probably brings up a whole other issue. With the assumption the issue is that it was not mentioned, anywhere, for the first 500 years of the church. Even then the place it was discussed was condemned as heresy. Those are the issues in a nutshell.
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Mary was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus beforehand and she was therefore born sinless unlike the rest of us since Adam and Eve. This is the most important point. IF Adam and Eve had not chosen to commit sin, they would not have died. Since Mary remained sinless, she did not die a mortal death such as we all will do, due to original sin . at the time appointed by God, Mary was therefore assumed into heaven, body and soul. Since we know where the Apostles peter and Paul were buried, we certainly would have known where the Mother of God, Mary was buried if she had, in fact suffered mortal death. She was very revered by all in the Church from the beginning. Read the early Church Fathers and it may help you very much. pray to God for an increase in faith and keep your heart open meanwhile. God bless you.
 
Used2beSherryG said:
Mary was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus beforehand and she was therefore born sinless unlike the rest of us since Adam and Eve. This is the most important point. IF Adam and Eve had not chosen to commit sin, they would not have died. Since Mary remained sinless, she did not die a mortal death such as we all will do, due to original sin . at the time appointed by God, Mary was therefore assumed into heaven, body and soul. Since we know where the Apostles peter and Paul were buried, we certainly would have known where the Mother of God, Mary was buried if she had, in fact suffered mortal death. She was very revered by all in the Church from the beginning. Read the early Church Fathers and it may help you very much. pray to God for an increase in faith and keep your heart open meanwhile. God bless you.
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I have read the church fathers, and none of them mentioned the assumption in the first 500 years of the church. A reverence fro Mary does not necessarily mean she was assumed. If this was such a vital part of the early church it would have been mentioned somewhere in the first 500 years of the church. When it was mentioned it was in a heretical writing which was condemned by Pope Gelasius. How can that same teaching that was once condemned now be a requirement to be a Christian?
 
The fact that the gnostics also seem to have believed in the Assumption is evidence, in a way. Shouldn’t we have seen far more condemnations of this belief if it was incorrect. Pope Gelasius didn’t condemn the assumption, correct? He condemned the worship of Mary as a goddess, of a priestesshood dedicated to her, with an imitation Eucharist. It was these extremes he condemned, but no word on condemning the assumption itself, which if you consider it would be an implied corollary from the rest of it. By the time the narrative tradition documentation that we have is found in the 500s, it’s already widespread.
 
Whemsworth said:
I have read the church fathers, and none of them mentioned the assumption in the first 500 years of the church. A reverence fro Mary does not necessarily mean she was assumed. If this was such a vital part of the early church it would have been mentioned somewhere in the first 500 years of the church. When it was mentioned it was in a heretical writing which was condemned by Pope Gelasius. How can that same teaching that was once condemned now be a requirement to be a Christian?
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And as for purgatory, that relies quite a bit on a passage in 2 Maccabees, a book that even Jews do not consider to be one of their canonical books. Only Catholics and Eastern Orthodox consider it canonical.
 
The churches that go back to Christ consider 2 Maccabees canonical. But more than that, a state of purgation after death of attachment to sin is attested to in the early Church and an acceptable belief in Eastern Orthodoxy, too. Jewish Orthodoxy, at least some traditions, hold a similar view that is expressed in 2 Maccabees, and similar to purgatory, in which the soul is purged for no longer than twelve months and that prayers for the dead are efficacious.
 
Wesrock said:
The churches that go back to Christ consider 2 Maccabees canonical. But more than that, a state of purgation after death of attachment to sin is attested to in the early Church and an acceptable belief in Eastern Orthodoxy, too. Jewish Orthodoxy, at least some traditions, hold a similar view that is expressed in 2 Maccabees, and similar to purgatory, in which the soul is purged for no longer than twelve months and that prayers for the dead are efficacious.
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I thought that there was no time in the afterlife. How can a soul be purged for less than 12 months?
 
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