I reject some dogmas

[Lenten_ashes]

And as for purgatory, that relies quite a bit on a passage in 2 Maccabees, a book that even Jews do not consider to be one of their canonical books. Only Catholics and Eastern Orthodox consider it canonical.

It was considered inspired for Jews, too, till about the year 100AD.

Then because books such as Wisdom were being used to convert Jews to Christianity, they pulled the plug on it. Just like they will freely edit the Talmud if it looks like something points to Jesus as Messiah.

And when you say " Only Catholics and Eastern Orthodox" You make it sound as if we are minority. Catholic and Orthodox make up the overwhelming majority of Christendom. Being scattered into 30,000 sects doesn’t project strength, it projects confusion and lack of doctrinal unity.

A final point of consideration…Jesus knows His audience in Matthew 12:32, He knows He is talking to people who pray for the dead and that’s why He includes The world/Age to come. They are all scattered about now, but some still pray for the dead today.

 

[Wesrock]

I thought that there was no time in the afterlife. How can a soul be purged for less than 12 months?

I don’t believe the Jewish Orthodox belief described above is 100% theologically accurate, especially given the temporal component (so far as I understand it). You see the full realization and understanding of this in the Christian era after Christ’s revelation. That, and the overlapping doctrine between both the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church on the subject, shows that this idea isn’t some later innovation.

Please don’t let the differences undermine the greater similarities.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I thought that there was no time in the afterlife. How can a soul be purged for less than 12 months?

That is how long the Jewish tradition prays for their soul. It is not necessarily how long the purging is.

While God is outside of time, and our eternal life is outside of earth time, we are creatures and there will be some sense of forward movement in the new heaven and new earth

 

[Jon_S_1]

OP,

On Purgatory…try these on.

"
“Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.” “It may hurt, you know”—even so, sir.”.

-CS LEWIS

"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”…

–Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231

 

[LatinRight]

OP,

On Purgatory…try these on.

"
“Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.” “It may hurt, you know”—even so, sir.”.

-CS LEWIS

"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”…

–Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231

Blessings Jon S

AT OUR BAPTISM AS GOD’S GIFT WE HAVE RECEIVED BY FAITH

1. God’s completed gift of our justification.
2. God’s completed gift of our sanctification.
3. God has completely washed us clean, (1 Cor.6:11; etc.).
4. God’s completed gift of our salvation.
5. God’s gift of everlasting life.

**Our salvation (spirit + soul) is completed at our baptism, it is God’s

perfect and completed gift.** – The salvation of our bodies is a future event.

Form this point on we can add nothing to our salvation and we cannot improve on it.

If we die the next minute after our baptism we go INSTANTLY to heaven.

At our baptism God has made us (our spirit + soul) ready to go to heaven.

In the Body of Christ we are (our spirit + soul) **perfectly just and holy, perfectly washed

clean and our salvation is completed, it is God’s free gift, received by faith**.

This is above our standing in the body of Christ. – INNER MAN (spirit + soul)

** CCC 1472; Purgatory is “the STATE called Purgatory” it is not a place.

The purgation of our (spirit + soul) done rather a short time in our STATE of PURGATION at our baptism.**

We have a different standing as we are ourselves.

OUR STANDING AS WE ARE OURSELVES (flesh/body).

In ourselves (flesh/body) we are not completely just and we are not completely holy.

**So, we have to work out our salvation by our co-operation with the grace of God by

working on our justification and our sanctification.**

This is a continues process in our Christian life.

**
As we working on our justification and sanctification progressively we become more just and more holy.**

Gal.5:17; **“For the flesh lust against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these

are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. **

**Progressively the spirit takes control over the flesh. – This is working out our salvation.

Also we do the different kind of Christian works**.

All the above works are our supernatural merit – if we do it out of love for the glory of God. – NOT FOR OUR SALVATION!

The above works are conditional. We work out our salvation (justification and

sanctification) and we do the different kind of Christian work if we have time to do.

If we die one minute after our baptism we go instantly to Heaven, so we have no time to
do the above works.

In the Body of Christ we have (our spirit + soul) God’s gift of our completed salvation.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

THE SALVATION AND RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES

Rom.8:23; **“… eagerly waiting for the ADAPTION (salvation), the REDEMPTION

(salvation) of our BODY (outward man).” – Our bodies not yet saved.**

1 Cor.15:42; “… The body is SOWN in corruption, it is RAISED in incorruption.”

1 Cor.15:43; “It is SOWN in dishonor, it is RAISED in glory. It is SOWN in weakness, it is RAISED in power.

1 Cor.15:44; “It is SOWN a natural body, it is RAISED a spiritual body.”

Phil.3:20-21; “… Lord Jesus Christ will change our lowly body to be like His glorious body.”

1 Cor.15:51-52;** “… We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED – in a moment,

in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE, … dead will RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be CHANGED.”**

SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE BIBLE VERSES

1. When we die our NATURAL corrupt bodies go to the grave in dishonor.
2. At the resurrection our SPIRITUAL glorious incorruptible bodies raised from the grave in power.
3. If we alive at that time, we shall all be CHANGED –** in a moment, in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE.**

From the above facts we can have an idea how long our purgation will be IN OUR STATE OF PURGATION.

Quote from:
Part 1- findingthecatholicchurch.blog…ghtly.html?m=1

Part 2. findingthecatholicchurch.blog…poral.html?m=1

I think that if one can get their head around the idea **that Purgatory may be

an instantaneous encounter with Christ’s love**, which **the Catholic Church

speculates as possible, then perhaps the doctrine of Purgatory is not so far

fetched for the Evangelical reader**.

In closing I would like to end with a quote from Pope Benedict the XVI

regarding this doctrine, in his encyclical Spe Salvi I believe he sums it up

in a beautiful way that even an Evangelical reader can appreciate and

hopefully recognize as not just plausible, but likely.

**Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns

and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Savior.** The encounter with him

is the decisive act of judgment. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away.

**This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing

us to become truly ourselves.** All that we build during our lives can prove

to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this

encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to

us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an

undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed

pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame,

enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this

way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the

way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain

us forever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ,

towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away

through Christ’s Passion. **At the moment of judgment we experience and

we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the

world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.**

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[guanophore]

To all those saying that something ain’t right with this thread let me give you some background. I came into the church 11 years ago and was told purgatory was no longer taught. I was obviously told wrong. Maybe I was never really catholic to begin with…I don’t know. I have have studied but believing because I’m told to does not work for me. I have tried that for a decade. I appreciate all your responses and will consider what you all said. Sorry for any typos. I’m on my phone and have big thumbs.

It sounds like your problem is not so much related to doctrine as it is your relationship with the Head of the Church. He has a habit of telling the faithful what to believe.

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."John 6:29

If you choose not to believe in Him, then all the rest of it is irrelevant.

 

[Usagi]

How could the tomb containing the vessel that carried God in the flesh go missing for two millennia? How could no one not go into detail about her death and burial if she died? Why do we have no records of pilgrimages made to her tomb? Why do the Church Fathers not give even a passing thought on this or her death, or the obvious tragedy it would be that we lost her tomb entirely after not even a couple centuries?

Just to clarify, I thought we did have a tomb for Mary (possibly two – an intended one in Jerusalem and an actual one in Ephesus). The stories surrounding the Assumption (which seem to be cribbed from the Easter story, so I’m not putting them forth as true but as what some people seem to have believed) usually have Mary dying and laid in the tomb for a time like her Son before being assumed. We even get St. Thomas showing up late again.

The more impressive data point, I always thought, is the lack of first-class Marian relics. We know there were points in Church history where important relics were valued enough that people would not only keep the real things but would even circulate fakes – yet I don’t think anyone even claimed to have a piece of Mary’s body, because the conviction that she didn’t leave one was so widespread that there would have been no point.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I have read the church fathers, and none of them mentioned the assumption in the first 500 years of the church. A reverence fro Mary does not necessarily mean she was assumed. If this was such a vital part of the early church it would have been mentioned somewhere in the first 500 years of the church. When it was mentioned it was in a heretical writing which was condemned by Pope Gelasius. How can that same teaching that was once condemned now be a requirement to be a Christian?

Hello. I have scanned quickly through this thread, so I have some idea of what your question is.

1st. of all, when looking for evidence of the Assumption you can get the most authoritative understanding by reading the Dogmatic Definition itself here.

You will notice that it is not really a matter of what was taught by the ECFs, but rather what was present in the ancient Liturgies. That evidence trumps anything you might find in the ECFs. Also you need to look under the “Dormition” of the Virgin Mary, for the most ancient testimonies. The name “Assumption” is strictly a modern Latin concept, even though it is exactly the same doctrine/liturgy/devotion as the Dormition of the Virgin Mary.

2ndly. Based on your initial posts, I see you are basically a Bible Christian. I know you converted to Catholicism 10 yrs. ago, but I don’t believe you were completely aware of the teachings and doctrines of Catholicism, so although you went through the rituals, you are not really a Catholic yet, at least not in your Faith.

You should give this some serious thought, and try to discern where you truly find God. It would be much better for you to be a 100% Bible Christian then a 75% Catholic. Why? Because there is no such thing as a 75% Catholic! Your are either wholly Catholic, or you are still not Catholic (in your Faith.)

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I thought that there was no time in the afterlife. How can a soul be purged for less than 12 months?

We no longer quantify “temporal penalty” in calendar time, because we have come to understand the confusion it caused to do so.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I’m always a little surprised at how many Catholics here in CAF advise other Catholics to just leave the Church if they disagree with something.

Same here. Surely a better answer is, pursue your enquiries further!!!

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… It would be much better for you to be a 100% Bible Christian than a 75% Catholic. Why? Because there is no such thing as a 75% Catholic! You are either wholly Catholic, or you are still not Catholic (in your Faith).

God’s arithmetic is better than yours, Ambrose!

Stick around Mr Hemsworth, you’re on a good road basically. The bits and pieces will come to you in due course,.

 

[Whemsworth]

The churches that go back to Christ consider 2 Maccabees canonical. But more than that, a state of purgation after death of attachment to sin is attested to in the early Church and an acceptable belief in Eastern Orthodoxy, too. Jewish Orthodoxy, at least some traditions, hold a similar view that is expressed in 2 Maccabees, and similar to purgatory, in which the soul is purged for no longer than twelve months and that prayers for the dead are efficacious.

The context of the Maccabees passage is something totally different. The soldiers died wearing the emblem of a pagan god. This would be considered a mortal sin, at least to the priests I have spoken with, and they would be in hell and not purgatory.

 

[Whemsworth]

Could you explain it then? I don’t mean state it - I mean explain it.

Purgatory is not a third destination for the soul, but a place for those that die in God’s grace to be purged of temporal effects of venial sin.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Just to clarify, I thought we did have a tomb for Mary (possibly two – an intended one in Jerusalem and an actual one in Ephesus). …

The more impressive data point, I always thought, is the lack of first-class Marian relics. …

Graham Phillips wrote that Joseph of Arimathea brought her casket to Anglesey. Phillips found her chapel at a crossroads. Sorry I can’t remember the book title - I gave it away.

As he is not a Catholic writer he did include in the book some non-Catholic materials on other aspects of Our Lady, not (I hasten to add) claiming those to be Catholic.

The sections on the casket and the chapel specifically struck me as quite well researched in themselves.

And people did travel that much in those days, quite a lot.

I pair Our Lady with Moses in what happened to her, by contrast with Enoch and Elijah who just got “taken up”.

 

[Rau]

Purgatory is not a third destination for the soul, but a place for those that die in God’s grace to be purged of temporal effects of venial sin.

My question was about the Assumption.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… If you choose not to believe in Him, then all the rest of it is irrelevant.

I don’t think this is Mr Hemsworth’s position, anyway.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

I call troll.

And as for me, my sincerity sniffer sniffs genuine sincerity of intent.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

The reality is that what he’s not saying is that he’s not Catholic and never really was.

If he’s been truthful then he was misled because nothing has changed on Purgatory and the Assumption, but I can’t imagine anyone in authority feeding him that line so you’ll have to call me skeptical.

Something most definitely ain’t right with this thread.

Last point first - yes this attitude.

Mr Hemsworth is a Catholic because the Church made him a Catholic, for whatever reasons of its own.

It is very commonplace indeed for new Catholics and “cradle” Catholics to be misled on fairly important points by those in a fair degree of authority e.g one whom one is entitled to look to to instruct one.

The real remedy is to draw breath, thank God for the start one has been given, such as it was, and further research things as one goes on in life.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Purgatory is not a third destination for the soul, but a place for those that die in God’s grace to be purged of temporal effects of venial sin.

And even of confessed mortal sin (I think), if the degree of conversion manifesting in works of new life hasn’t sufficiently totally cancelled it (“Love covers a multitude of sins”).

At any rate, some of your old friends (whom I hope you still have time to keep up with) and some of my friends sometimes say that a “fictional” purgatory is an excuse to not pursue the Christian life and its fruits.

Maybe in the old days the people who instructed the priest who “received” you used to dangle it as a “consolation prize” ( ) for those who had been told that because of their minor faults they were bound for hell, or had convinced themselves they were (as if they could know), and that priest thinks that because that won’t wash nowadays, he’ll just sweep the entire thing under the carpet.

It’s true much Catholic “catechesis” in practice hasn’t dwelled enough on the fruitfulness manifested from the life of the indwelling Jesus and the Paraclete.

Both the Catholics’ and Protestants’ Bibles have St Paul saying “Love covers a multitude of sins” and “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

True Catholic teaching, at bottom, doesn’t invite us to exactly aim at Purgatory!

I Cor 3;15 says a lot to me about it; no doctrine is supposed to be wholly dependent on Maccabees.

Hoping this is helpful to your ongoing examinations.

When you get to lessons on topics you haven’t got to the bottom of, you can convey what you’ve been told, maybe adding (to an appropriate age group) that you are still looking into it. I don’t think your situation entails announcing to school and diocesan authorities that you have “rejected dogmas” even if you think that is what you have provisionally done (temporarily shelved, at most, would I am sure be a better description). No wonder the bishop looked blank!

I’ve watched people for 61 years, I know your type, and I love the journey you’re on!