I reject some dogmas

[Usagi]

The context of the Maccabees passage is something totally different. The soldiers died wearing the emblem of a pagan god. This would be considered a mortal sin, at least to the priests I have spoken with, and they would be in hell and not purgatory.

It would seem odd, then, that their fellows would pray for their souls, a behavior described in the text as commendable rather than futile. It seems more likely to me that their use of pagan amulets for good fortune in battle fell into the realm of superstition, a sin but a lesser one. They still fought and died for their nation and its God against the pagan king who had declared himself a deity and defiled the Temple, after all.

 

[Usagi]

Like Lewis (a believer in purgatory who was never a Catholic), I tend to see purgatory as a logically necessary part of the transition from this life to that of Heaven. It may not take a measurable period of time or occur in a particular place, but something happens to change us from repentant sinners on a journey of sanctification into the purified saints of Heaven. We Catholics happen to call that something purgatory, but even those who do not share our theology can sometimes be brought to see the necessity of such an occurrence.

 

[Tomdstone]

Like Lewis (a believer in purgatory who was never a Catholic), I tend to see purgatory as a logically necessary part of the transition from this life to that of Heaven. It may not take a measurable period of time or occur in a particular place, but something happens to change us from repentant sinners on a journey of sanctification into the purified saints of Heaven. We Catholics happen to call that something purgatory, but even those who do not share our theology can sometimes be brought to see the necessity of such an occurrence.

Many Eastern Orthodox say that they do not believe in Purgatory.

 

[Vico]

Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.

Canon law (CIC):

Canon 750 – § 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

§ 2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Canon 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Canon 752 While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic Magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith and morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ’s faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine.

Canon 1371 – The following are to be punished with a just penalty:

1° a person who, apart from the case mentioned in canon 1364 § 1, teaches a doctrine condemned by the Roman Pontiff, or by an Ecumenical Council, or obstinately rejects the teachings mentioned in canon 750 § 2 or in canon 752 and, when warned by the Apostolic See or by the Ordinary, does not retract;

2° a person who in any other way does not obey the lawful command or prohibition of the Apostolic See or the Ordinary or Superior and, after being warned, persists in disobedience.

 

[Usagi]

Many Eastern Orthodox say that they do not believe in Purgatory.

But some do believe in the general idea of some kind of purification after death.

 

[Vico]

Purgatory is not a third destination for the soul, but a place for those that die in God’s grace to be purged of temporal effects of venial sin.

Catechism: purgatory, heaven, and hell are states.

Heaven
1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

Purgatory
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

 

[GKC]

Graham Phillips wrote that Joseph of Arimathea brought her casket to Anglesey. Phillips found her chapel at a crossroads. Sorry I can’t remember the book title - I gave it away.

As he is not a Catholic writer he did include in the book some non-Catholic materials on other aspects of Our Lady, not (I hasten to add) claiming those to be Catholic.

The sections on the casket and the chapel specifically struck me as quite well researched in themselves.

And people did travel that much in those days, quite a lot.

I pair Our Lady with Moses in what happened to her, by contrast with Enoch and Elijah who just got “taken up”.

Perhaps his The Marian Conspiracy.

 

[steve_b]

Both doctrines are nowhere in scripture. Thus the question.

I’ve read ahead in the thread just to make sure I’m not going to repeat any answer that might have addressed your point. BTW, whoever told you the Church doesn’t teach purgatory anymore, is 100% wrong. As a suggestion, always ask someone for their sources.

Re: Purgatory.in scripture

In the OT why in the world would Jews pray for the dead 2 Machabees 12:44-45 ? For that matter why would ANYONE pray for the dead?

• If one is in heaven they don’t need prayers,
• if one is in hell prayers do no good for them.

Yet OT people prayed for the dead. So their prayers for the dead presumes there is a 3rd state, not heaven not hell that one can benefit from prayer. And since no one has a crystal ball into the after life for where their particular loved one or friend is, it’s a good and charitable act to pray for that soul just in case they are where prayers can benefit them. jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory keeping in mind, the OT people were seeing things in types and shadows.

The NT describes a process after death but before heaven. It doesn’t give this process a name, but the Church calls it purgation, i.e. purgatory. This is only for one who is already saved. They go through this process of purification on the DAY… i.e. day of judgement … i,e, day one dies.

1 Cor 3: 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day*(“1 cor 3 RSVCE - On Divisions in the Corinthian Church - Bible Gateway”)] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.*

Mind you this process is only for one who is saved. This person dies in a state of grace. The one who dies with mortal sin on their soul is NOT saved, does NOT go through this process. They go immediately to hell.

Re: Assumption of Mary in scripture

How to Argue for Mary’s Assumption

The Assumption of Mary in History

The Assumption of Mary

Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Is There a Queen in the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[Whemsworth]

It would seem odd, then, that their fellows would pray for their souls, a behavior described in the text as commendable rather than futile. It seems more likely to me that their use of pagan amulets for good fortune in battle fell into the realm of superstition, a sin but a lesser one. They still fought and died for their nation and its God against the pagan king who had declared himself a deity and defiled the Temple, after all.

Scripture disagrees see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.”

An abomination is condemnation to anyone does it unless they repent. These soldiers had no time. The Maccabees text is eisegeted wat to often in catholic circles.

 

[Church_Militant]

But some do believe in the general idea of some kind of purification after death.

Which is exactly what my research has shown in this blog article. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Scripture disagrees see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.”

An abomination is condemnation to anyone does it unless they repent. These soldiers had no time. The Maccabees text is eisegeted wat to often in catholic circles.

You assume. How do you know what those troops did in their final moments? What transpired between them and their God in those final instants of life? The fact is that you don’t…you cannot, and scripture does not tell us anything but that the Jews (and the Catholic Church) believe that there is more to the afterlife than most modern men are willing to admit.

Your position is faulty in that it also condemns every suicide to hell.

Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

[adf417]

OP, would you consider yourself a sola scriptura Catholic?

Peace!!!

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.”

An abomination is condemnation to anyone does it unless they repent. … The Maccabees text is eisegeted way too often in catholic circles.

Believing in the Catholic Church’s real teaching about Purgatory (as opposed to what your PP told you) doesn’t involve any of the things listed in Deuteronomy. I can’t see how you think it refers to Purgatory? Can you tell us the connection in your mind?

You can sigh a sigh of relief over this, WH.

I, like you, recommend leaving Maccabees out of the frame for the purpose, as indeed does the Church itself in its own stance on the Deuterocanon.

 

[Jon_S_1]

The context of the Maccabees passage is something totally different. The soldiers died wearing the emblem of a pagan god. This would be considered a mortal sin, at least to the priests I have spoken with, and they would be in hell and not purgatory.

You miss the point.

The church now and the Jews then, did not say that people were for sure in hell. we do not know the state of their soul. So we treat them as if they are going to heaven and thus the prayers are efficacious to them if they are going to heaven. If not, then the prayers are efficacious for us and for the church as a whole and for the others who are going through purgation.

This has nothing to do with whether its a mortal sin or not…that is beside the point and demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of Purgatory for you to say so.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Many Eastern Orthodox say that they do not believe in Purgatory.

They do, they just do not call it Purgatory and they say that often in speaking of the misperception that is prevalent of a third place. There is no third place…

 

[Jon_S_1]

Scripture disagrees see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.”

An abomination is condemnation to anyone does it unless they repent. These soldiers had no time. The Maccabees text is eisegeted wat to often in catholic circles.

Again, this is an unnecessary place to go. They may have gone to hell they may not. It may have been a mortal sin it may not have. that is all inconsequential.

The point is that they were prayed for. They were prayed for because the Jewish tradition prayed (and continues to today) to pray for their dead, just as Catholics do. Why because we want to pray for their journey of transformation into God’s kingdom.

If they are in hell…then our prayers help us and others who are being purified to meet God.

You do not find it at all interesting, that the Jews from which our tradition sprouted has this same tradition?

Most Protestants find it hard to believe because they have so distanced themselves from Judaism.

 

[KEP1983]

The context of the Maccabees passage is something totally different. The soldiers died wearing the emblem of a pagan god. This would be considered a mortal sin, at least to the priests I have spoken with, and they would be in hell and not purgatory.

A pagan Hindu and a Christian went off to fight a war together. The pagan Hindu had various Hindu emblems on him-- all sorts of deities were stitched on his clothes, he had a necklace, things like that.

He got shot and only lived for about another minute. In the last 30 seconds, he said he was wrong, and cried out to Jesus for forgiveness. Then he died immediately.

So there he was, dead, covered in pagan emblems.

The people there all know he died repentant. But what if you and I came across his body, not hearing what the people there saw? You seem to say you know for certain he died in mortal sin and is in hell. If I came across the body I would pray for his soul, hoping that he repented at the last minute of his life. I wouldn’t assume anything one way or another.

We always hope for the last minute repentance of all people and hope they are saved. We pray for all souls, even the ones we “know” are most likely in hell.

As has been pointed out, this is not divination. We’re not conjuring up the dead to talk to them. I’m of Jewish ancestry. Jews have always prayed for the peace of the dead, even before the time of Christ.

As far as the existence of purgatory goes; as a former devout knowledgeable Protestant, I don’t see how I could have denied it.

The existence of purgatory is just logical:

1. all Protestants agree that we’re all sinners. They all agree this is due to inheriting a sinful nature (a being acts according to its nature, and we all have a sinful nature, so we all do sinful acts).
2. Protestants all agree that sanctification is the process of being made Holy.
3. Protestants all agree that no one is made perfectly Holy while they’re still alive. They still retain aspects of a sinful nature.
4. Protestants all agree that we’ll be perfect in Heaven-- that is, they all agree we won’t sin in Heaven. Our nature will be changed.
   Therefore
5. Our natures are changed somehow between the moment of death and our entrance into Heaven. The sinful nature is gone and we are made pure, no longer able or willing to sin.

Call it whatever you like. But that’s purgatory.

 

[Jon_S_1]

A pagan Hindu and a Christian who went off to fight a war together. The pagan Hindu had various Hindu emblems on him-- all sorts of deities were stitched on his clothes, he had a necklace, things like that.

He got shot and only lived for about another minute. In the last 30 seconds, he said he was wrong, and cried out to Jesus for forgiveness. Then he died immediately.

So there he was, dead, covered in pagan emblems.

If you came across his body, you seem to say you know for certain he died in mortal sin. But the people who actually were there know he repented.

If I came across the body I would pray for his soul, hoping that he repented at the last minute of his life. I wouldn’t assume anything one way or another.

As far as the existence of purgatory goes; as a former devout knowledgeable Protestant, I don’t see how I could have denied it.

1. all Protestants agree that we’re all sinners. They all agree this is due to inheriting a sinful nature (a being acts according to its nature, and we all have a sinful nature, so we all do sinful acts).
2. Protestants all agree that sanctification is the process of being made Holy.
3. Protestants all agree that no one is made perfectly Holy while they’re still alive. They still retain aspects of a sinful nature.
4. Protestants all agree that we’ll be perfect in Heaven-- that is, they all agree we won’t sin in Heaven. Our nature will be changed.
   Therefore
5. Our natures are changed somehow between the moment of death and our entrance into Heaven. The sinful nature is gone and we are made pure, no longer able or willing to sin.

Call it whatever you like. But that’s purgatory.

 

[Whemsworth]

Again, this is an unnecessary place to go. They may have gone to hell they may not. It may have been a mortal sin it may not have. that is all inconsequential.

The point is that they were prayed for. They were prayed for because the Jewish tradition prayed (and continues to today) to pray for their dead, just as Catholics do. Why because we want to pray for their journey of transformation into God’s kingdom.

If they are in hell…then our prayers help us and others who are being purified to meet God.

You do not find it at all interesting, that the Jews from which our tradition sprouted has this same tradition?

Most Protestants find it hard to believe because they have so distanced themselves from Judaism.

So idolotry is not a mortal sin? This passage, or any of them used for the argument of purgatory, have never been infallibly defined by the church. Why is that? Purgatory has morphed over the centuries.

 

[Whemsworth]

OP, would you consider yourself a sola scriptura Catholic?

Peace!!!

If you are asking me if I put scripture above tradition, then yes. This is even more applicable since the assumption was not mentioned by any of the church father before the 5th century. How can it be tradition if none of them mentioned it? It is because it was foreign to them.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So idolotry is not a mortal sin? This passage, or any of them used for the argument of purgatory, have never been infallibly defined by the church. Why is that? Purgatory has morphed over the centuries.

Again you completely miss the point. Whether idolatry is mortal sin has nothing to do with this discussion on purgatory.

If you choose to obstinately disregard advice and refuse to listen to those trying to help you then I am not sure why you are here?

Catholics believe in 3 EQUAL tiers of authority.

The Tradition given by the Apostles.

The Scripture that arose from that tradition.

And

The Magisterium, which is the Church as caretakers of the Tradition protected by the Holy Spirit.

If you don’t believe that then you do not hold the faith of the Catholic Church.

I would challenge you to consider “not relying on your own understanding”. A little humility is required and a rarity in our culture today.