I strongly suggest that you prove purgatory before preaching it.

[EJTMJR]

Scripture does not teach that we are save by faith alone. We are saved my Gods grace and by faith and works. Scripture says that we are to work out our salvation in “fear and trembeling”
Also Jesus says that we will be separated as sheep and goats according to our works.
Also Scripure says the " The Church is the pillar and foundation of faith". The Trinity and Sunday worship are not in Scripture.

 

[Church_Militant]

The bible came to us through 66 different authors inspired by the Hand of God

Not true…All the earliest discussions of the list of inspired books contain the Deuterocanonical book.

Even your count is off since there are less than “66 different authors” since some authors penned more than one book.

all of which never once prayed the rosary, entered a Catholic Church or aknowledged a Pope,

According to you…however, your second assertion is patently false, since the Greek text of Acts 9:31 shows that the name “ekklesia kath olos” was indeed used for the “the church throughout all”, so the name was not as unknown as you’d like to errantly teach people.

The Rosary allegation is unprovable, since a prayer bead devotion is common to many religions and I seem to recall reading somewhere that even the Jews have something similar. The papal authority was developing even in the New Testament, and Matthew 16:18 shows as well as other passages.

One thing is certainly true though. None of the apostles or the early church ever set foot in RevMarty’s Church of Seven Planes

indeed the very person you say was the first pope said don’t worship me, when people started to kneel and kiss his hand, he said don’t do that, he pointed all the time to Jesus.

True, where he knew the people intended to worship him, however none of the popes have ever claimed they were God or that we should worship them. Furthermore, with very few exceptions, (those very few that were moral failures) they have all “pointed all the time to Jesus”.

so if the institution you refer to is the C.C then perhaps you should be searching elsewhere for the truth because the truth came to these 66 Authors perfectly without any assistance from the C.C.

Not true, since they held Catholic beliefs. St. Paul teaching the Eucharistic Real Presence in 1st Cor. 10:16-17 and 11:23-30, that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth in 1st Tim 3:15, and that we should hold fast to Sacred Tradition inn 2nd Thess 2:15 & 3:6, while St. Jude quotes directly from non-canonical Jewish traditional writings in his epistle in verses 9, & 14-15. and baptisms have always used the same trinitarian formula that Catholics and nearly all n-C communities use to this day as per Matthew 28:19. There is a great deal more such evidence, but it is provided elsewhere here at CAF and is not relevant to this discussion of Purgatory.

Infact if it were left to the C.C we would not have the honor of having a copy of the Bible in which we could read and discuss.
thank God for seekers of the truth.

This is just blatant a-C rhetorical propaganda, as the actual facts of history have proved many many times before and as shown in this post and others all over CAF.
This is wishful thinking at best and specious propaganda at worst. Prior to the advent of the printing press in the mid 1400’s .
Better have a look at this chapter from Where We Got the Bible on the vernacular translations before Wycliff. The allegation is historical bunkum.

You also need to get the Beginning Apologetics Series especially # 7 and have a look on page 38.

“Before Gutenberg printed the first Bible around 1455 (A Catholic version in Latin with 73 books) there were already popular translations of the Bible and the Gospels in English, Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemiam, and Hungarian.”

"There were nine editions of the Bible in German by the time Martin Luther was born in 1493 and twenty-seven editions in German before Luther published his own in 1520.

Before the first Protestant Bible was printed, more than 600 editions of the Catholic Bible had been printed in Europe, of which 198 were in the languages of the people."

(Where We Got the Bible, pages 69,74,& 75)

 

[revmarty]

Not true…All the earliest discussions of the list of inspired books contain the Deuterocanonical book.

Even your count is off since there are less than “66 different authors” since some authors penned more than one book.According to you…however, your second assertion is patently false, since the Greek text of Acts 9:31 shows that the name “ekklesia kath olos” was indeed used for the “the church throughout all”, so the name was not as unknown as you’d like to errantly teach people.

My Apologies 40 Authors 66 books,

Back to the topic heaven is not automatic for people who have simply tried to be good. The Bible says: "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. (Revelation 21:27) The qualifying factor for those who enter will be whether or not their names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

There is nothing a stay purgatory will change once a person has departed this life, Jesus tells Nicodemus how to get to heaven in John Chapter 3.

Blessings

 

[revmarty]

Scripture does not teach that we are save by faith alone

. We are saved my Gods grace and by faith and works.
Agreed.

Scripture says that we are to work out our salvation in “fear and trembeling”
Also Jesus says that we will be separated as sheep and goats according to our works.

Agreed, but there is enough reference to the trinity in the Bible to overlook it and the Church is called the “Bride of Christ” several times in the New Testament. The initial picture is found in the parable of the bridesmaids in Matthew 25:1-11. The Church is loved intensely by Christ. That love is related to the fact that the Church has been chosen by Christ for His purposes (Ephesians 5:22-23). Revelation 21:9 says that the Bride has been prepared for Christ. So in this way, the Church is Christ’s, and exists for His pleasure, Christ is not in love with an organization rather the living breathing organism of people who are the true Church.

 

[Church_Militant]

My Apologies 40 Authors 66 books,

73 books and more authors, but that is your version…that issue is another thread topic.

Back to the topic heaven is not automatic for people who have simply tried to be good.

Can you provide me with any authentic Catholic document that asserts that we believe that?
You can’t…it’s not Catholic teaching.

The Bible says: "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. (Revelation 21:27) The qualifying factor for those who enter will be whether or not their names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

And Catholics agree with what that verse says.

There is nothing a stay purgatory will change once a person has departed this life

, Jesus tells Nicodemus how to get to heaven in John Chapter 3.I disagree. I provide a scriptural and historical case for it here.
Moreover, John 3 is not the only passage of scripture that deals with salvation and being born again.

Acts 2:38-39, and 22:16 are just 2 such passages.

 

[revmarty]

73 books and more authors, but that is your version…that issue is another thread topic.Can you provide me with any authentic Catholic document that asserts that we believe that?

I made a statement not an accusation.

You can’t…it’s not Catholic teaching.And Catholics agree with what that verse says.I disagree. I provide a scriptural and historical case for it here

thank you for your link, John 3 is not the only one but it is one that clearly without any assistance one can understand Jesus saying that he is the only way to heaven, no human intervention is needed. and the references in Acts are amoung my favs they are not referring to being born again, the first refers to holyspirit Baptism and Glossolalia the second Water baptism.

I’m talking about the need for purgatory and John 3 says you need only be born again, a decision made whilst you are alive and kicking.

be blessed

 

[Church_Militant]

thank you for your link, John 3 is not the only one but it is one that clearly without any assistance one can understand Jesus saying that he is the only way to heaven, no human intervention is needed. and the references in Acts are amoung my favs they are not referring to being born again,** the first refers to holyspirit Baptism and Glossolalia the second Water baptism.**

I’m talking about the need for purgatory and John 3 says you need only be born again, a decision made whilst you are alive and kicking.

be blessedLet’s look at those two verses then.
Acts 2:[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” [38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

and

Acts 22:[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Now, contrary to your pentecostal interpretation, the bolded parts of those verse show us plainly that they are not about “holyspirit Baptism and Glossolalia”, but about coming to Christ in repentance and water baptism, both necessary for salvation. The verses nowhere even imply “glossolalia” (speaking in tongues). You have forced your own theology onto the passage IMO.

The second cited verse does indeed have to do with baptism, but it also has to do with salvation and the fact that the New Testament teaches that Baptism with water is indeed necessary for salvation and that they did indeed teach that it washes away sins.

Both of these verses relate directly back to your references to John 3 because they are directly tied to the rebirth that Our Lord spoke of there.

None of that has anything to do with Purgatory.

There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Implicit “purgatory”

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…

The Jews also believe this and still do today (as if the passage from 2nd Maccabees doesn’t clearly show this).

 

[revmarty]

Firstly make up your mind you refered to Acts 2:38-39 this Scripture."38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” this follows the apostles coming into the street filled with the HS and speaking in other tongues some being (languages understood by men). and imparting to people the gift of the spirit salvation and filling them with HS.

QUOTE]and

Acts 22:[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Now, contrary to your pentecostal interpretation, the bolded parts of those verse show us plainly that they are not about “holyspirit Baptism and Glossolalia”, but about coming to Christ in repentance and water baptism, both necessary for salvation. The verses nowhere even imply “glossolalia” (speaking in tongues). You have forced your own theology onto the passage IMO.

As oposed to you Catholic theology right?

The second cited verse does indeed have to do with baptism, but it also has to do with salvation and the fact that the New Testament teaches that Baptism with water is indeed necessary for salvation and that they did indeed teach that it washes away sins.

Baptism in water is a physical symbol, a neccessary step in the christian journey but a symbol none the less, but the blood washes our sins away not water. a person can be saved without water baptism, you are assuming that all these people who were saved on the day of pentecost were placed under water and baptized, but there was a new type of baptism this was in the HS.

Both of these verses relate directly back to your references to John 3 because they are directly tied to the rebirth that Our Lord spoke of there.

None of that has anything to do with Purgatory.

There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Implicit “purgatory”

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

you do draw a long bow this is what makes C.C so unbelievable to those who read the Bible without catholic coloured glasses.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…

The Jews also believe this and still do today (as if the passage from 2nd Maccabees doesn’t clearly show this).

Well this doesn’t even matter, Just as much inspiration as in Harry Potter.

all the best to you…

 

[LoveGod1]

Instead of discussing whether or not Purgatory exists why don’t we all just pray instead because there are major isssues in our world at the moment. Let’s see, we have babies being aborted, children as young as 11 doing drugs, alcohol, etc. The spirtual warfare is all around us, and we just spend our time discussing whether or not purgatory exists? I know it exists, Our Lady gave us the Scapulars for a reason, Jesus himself appeared to Saint Faustina and asked if she wanted to go to purgatory to suffer to allow more souls to be saved from the fires of hell. People, if souls go to purgatory great it’s hell we should be concerned about.

Your sister in Chirst.

 

[christcnection1]

Instead of discussing whether or not Purgatory exists why don’t we all just pray instead because there are major isssues in our world at the moment. Let’s see, we have babies being aborted, children as young as 11 doing drugs, alcohol, etc. The spirtual warfare is all around us, and we just spend our time discussing whether or not purgatory exists? I know it exists, Our Lady gave us the Scapulars for a reason, Jesus himself appeared to Saint Faustina and asked if she wanted to go to purgatory to suffer to allow more souls to be saved from the fires of hell. People, if souls go to purgatory great it’s hell we should be concerned about.

Your sister in Christ.

Dear sister in Christ,

If we convince that purgatory and the Catholic Church are both Biblically and historically true, then we will be better able to confront many of these issues.

Purgatory should be a concern, because people go there as a result of not being perfectly sanctified. Furthermore, we are called to pray for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. This is an act of mercy; I know that I want prayers offered up for me when I’m there.

Saint Faustina’s desire was a noble one, but God doesn’t will that people undergo the pains purgatory if they are ready for heaven. Furthermore, if one is in heaven, they are as close to the Lord as can be; therefore, their prayers will be more efficacious.

This issue of purgatory is one of the issues preventing Christ’s Church from being perfectly one (John 17). Hence, it’s an issue that needs to be addressed.

In Him,
Jonathon

 

[revmarty]

Instead of discussing whether or not Purgatory exists why don’t we all just pray instead because there are major isssues in our world at the moment. Let’s see, we have babies being aborted, children as young as 11 doing drugs, alcohol, etc. The spirtual warfare is all around us, and we just spend our time discussing whether or not purgatory exists? I know it exists, Our Lady gave us the Scapulars for a reason, Jesus himself appeared to Saint Faustina and asked if she wanted to go to purgatory to suffer to allow more souls to be saved from the fires of hell. People, if souls go to purgatory great it’s hell we should be concerned about.

Your sister in Chirst.

You are correct we have major issues in the world, I agree with you. But, the fact is this, if we tell people that there is a second chance at heaven, if we tell people that contrary to the Bible there is an imaginary place that men have conjured up and using a distorted and altered view of scripture they attempt to validate this fantasy land, and if we preach a message that says when you die the prayers of the living can intercede for your soul and get you out, then we demote the power that Jesus the Lamb that was slain for the sins of the world died to Achieve. No one comes to the father but through JESUS, if we call on the name of the Lord we will be saved. you can NOT even pray for the living to have a relationship with God it is there choice, if we die in sin, we spend eternity without God, this is why we need Jesus all the more.
and as far as Jesus himself appeared to Saint Faustina, Joseph smith claimed Jesus told him all about the Mormon faith, we can trust his so called encounter why it is not supported by the sriptures. and God does not contradict himself.

2 Samuel 14:14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. (This is a fore telling of Jesus.)

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

get it right now because when we croak it will be final.

 

[JeannetteCML]

Purgatory should be a concern, because people go there as a result of not being perfectly sanctified. Furthermore, we are called to pray for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. This is an act of mercy; I know that I want prayers offered up for me when I’m there.

In Him,
Jonathon

Dear Jonathon,

Quit saying you’re going to be in Purgatory! Take advantage of the precious time you have now here on Earth to do penance, to rid yourself of all attachment to sin, to be holy. Desire to be a saint! :newidea: You can do it! God can help you. God WANTS to help you! Everything will be given to you that you need. :bowdown:



Jeannette

 

[revmarty]

Dear Jonathon,

Quit saying you’re going to be in Purgatory! Take advantage of the precious time you have now here on Earth to do penance, to rid yourself of all attachment to sin, to be holy. Desire to be a saint! :newidea: You can do it! God can help you. God WANTS to help you! Everything will be given to you that you need. :bowdown:

You hit it on the head you are not going to purgatory, Purgatory is a cop out for those who don’t have assurance of salvation John’s purpose in writing the epistle of 1 John was to give true believers assurance of their salvation read it 1 John 5:13.

it is not by works (penance) but by his spirit says the Lord.

Blessed assurance Jesus is mine .

 

[JeannetteCML]

You hit it on the head you are not going to purgatory, Purgatory is a cop out for those who don’t have assurance of salvation John’s purpose in writing the epistle of 1 John was to give true believers assurance of their salvation read it 1 John 5:13.

it is not by works (penance) but by his spirit says the Lord.

Blessed assurance Jesus is mine .

Don’t get me wrong-- I didn’t say I don’t believe in Purgatory. In fact, the only people not in Heaven who have assurance of their salvation ARE those in Purgatory. (You may have salvation but still be sent to Purgatory first.) Your and my view on possible assurance differ greatly. We may all have a lot of work yet to do before entering Heaven.

But I do believe that it is right for us to hope for the holiness that God desires for us.

 

[revmarty]

Don’t get me wrong-- I didn’t say I don’t believe in Purgatory. In fact, the only people not in Heaven who have assurance of their salvation ARE those in Purgatory. (You may have salvation but still be sent to Purgatory first.) Your and my view on possible assurance differ greatly. We may all have a lot of work yet to do before entering Heaven.

But I do believe that it is right for us to hope for the holiness that God desires for us.

Oh no I understand Jeannette, but your interpretation of Assurance of salvation would cause Paul to turn in his grave (as a matter of speaking not to be taken literally) to many are decieved and that is why the bible say’s wide is the road to Hell and Narrow is the road to heaven. because many are decieved into thinking they have a shot even after death, by then it is indeed to late.
I Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool (let him reject worldly wisdom and accept Godly wisdom), that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

to much worldly wisdom in the C.C teachings good luck Jeanette.

 

[Bishopite]

You hit it on the head you are not going to purgatory, Purgatory is a cop out for those who don’t have assurance of salvation John’s purpose in writing the epistle of 1 John was to give true believers assurance of their salvation read it 1 John 5:13.

it is not by works (penance) but by his spirit says the Lord.

Blessed assurance Jesus is mine .

So do you know with infallible certitude that you will be saved?

 

[Bishopite]

Oh no I understand Jeannette, but your interpretation of Assurance of salvation would cause Paul to turn in his grave (as a matter of speaking not to be taken literally) to many are decieved and that is why the bible say’s wide is the road to Hell and Narrow is the road to heaven. because many are decieved into thinking they have a shot even after death, by then it is indeed to late.

If you are referring to Catholics who think purgatory is a second chance, well they are very confused by what Catholicism teaches. Purgatory is NOT a second chance, after death ones fate is secure in heaven or hell; those who are in purgatory are on their way to heaven. Paul didn’t have once saved always saved theology and we know this by looking at 1 Cor 9 where he says he can be lost after running the Christian race; that he will be disqualified.
Back in 1 Cor 3:14-15 Paul also speaks of those who “suffer” and are “saved by fire” yet those in heaven don’t suffer. Paul is speaking of those whos works of straw, hay, works done without the love of God (Mt 25:34-40, Gal 5:6) and they will sufffer lose by God’s holy fire.

I Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool (let him reject worldly wisdom and accept Godly wisdom), that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

to much worldly wisdom in the C.C teachings good luck Jeanette.

1. So, then tell me if Catholicism is filled with “wordly wisdom” then which non-Catholic church correctly practices 2 Tim 2:15?
2. Are you completely sanctified?

 

[JimG]

because many are decieved into thinking they have a shot even after death, by then it is indeed to late.

Purgatory is not a second chance or a ‘shot even after death.’ Anyone in purgatory is already saved.

1 Cor 3:15 - “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

 

[Debra_C]

Oh no I understand Jeannette, but your interpretation of Assurance of salvation would cause Paul to turn in his grave (as a matter of speaking not to be taken literally) to many are decieved and that is why the bible say’s wide is the road to Hell and Narrow is the road to heaven. because many are decieved into thinking they have a shot even after death, by then it is indeed to late.

Ok, well I was thinking I would just stay out of this, but I just can’t stand it.

Rev. Marty, this is just untrue. This is not an accurate representation of Catholic teachings. We do not believe that Purgatory is a second chance after death. The teaching of the Church is that those who die in unrepented mortal sin, go to Hell. We do not pray for those in Hell. We do not believe prayers for those in Hell would be effective. We don’t think that Purgatory is where you get to change your mind.

We believe that those in Purgatory are already saved. They were saved by their response to God’s grace in this life. They are being purified for their entry into Heaven. Purgatory is a place where we repay the temporal debt due our sin that remains unpaid at our death. Again, God is a just God. Just because we left the OT does not change this fact.

Now it may well be a fact that you are now and have always been a far holier person than I, so I cannot speak to your situation. But I can assure you, I have incurred a debt that I will never be able to repay. This obviously leaves me utterly dependent upon His great mercy.

I think we agree that the salvation from Hell is free. We need only accept the gift. If it weren’t, I’d certainly be doomed. I try not to miss any opportunities to thank my Jesus for this very fact.

But, I also wouldn’t dare disrespect Him by acting as if what I do with my life now cannot affect that salvation. Indeed, I intend to do my very best to live by His commandments from here out, and yes, I do feel I owe it to Him to make every effort I can to repay my debt (this would be the meaning of penance). To behave otherwise would be to fail in giving Him the love and gratitude He deserves. If He requires of me further penance when I have passed from this life (in Purgatory), I will certainly not argue with Him about it.

 

[revmarty]

So do you know with infallible certitude that you will be saved?

Yes I do, John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life"

John 1:12 “To all who received Him, to those who believed in His Name, He gave the right to become children of God”

Acts 16:3 1believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved

it is so simple you need the C.C to complicate it, who benifits from that?