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PRmerger
Guest
How is it you understand the bolded section, schaick? How does a soul “suffer loss” but still be saved?
Is there suffering in heaven in your paradigm?
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Is there suffering in heaven in your paradigm?
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PRmerger
Guest
On the contrary, schaick. One of the thieves clearly knew that Jesus “had done nothing wrong.” (see your quote below)
I think it’s pretty clear that St. Dismas knew the man Jesus Christ.
We have no official teaching on whether St. Dismas’ situation parallels ours.
We believe that St. Dismas was saved–as are all who are in heaven–through the atoning death of Christ.
I am simply pointing out that the tens of thousands of Protestant denominations (which is an obscenity) do not agree on much. It comes down to 5 little things–out of the entirety of God’s Word–that you can agree in opposition to the Catholic Church.
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schaick
Guest
You asked: *B]How is it you understand the bolded section, schaick? How does a soul “suffer loss” but still be saved?
Is there suffering in heaven in your paradigm?*
Actually where you see purgatory and need for punishment we see the Bema Seat and rewards.
Oh, ok you wish to point out the disagreements we have with the Catholic Church, too bad I thought thread was about things Christians agree on.
Actually it can be whittled down to one - we agree that all doctrines and dogmas developed away or apart from Scripture are wrong.
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PRmerger
Guest
Not sure what you’re saying here, schaick.
How do you as a non-believer in purgatory answer this question: How does a soul “suffer loss” but still be saved?
Well, then, you are in disagreement with nothing that the CC teaches, for no doctrine or dogma developed apart from Scripture.
(And just to tweak the above statement a bit: the Catholic faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever committed to paper. So the Bible is not used to support the doctrines and dogmas of the CC, but the teachings of the CC can be found in the Bible. IOW the Scriptures came out of the teachings given once for all to the CC, not the other way around, in which the teachings of the CC come from the Scriptures.)
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schaick
Guest
An example of what we know from Scripture that Catholics have added extra extrabiblical info to:
Mary was a virgin
The Holy Spirit is Vicar
Jesus is the Ark of the New Covenant
Mary for a short time was the Temple as now we are all Temples
The Holy Bible is final and sufficient authority
There were no priests in the early church
Paul had acess to Luke
The Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles with Jesus as chief cornerstone
Now I am not like some that believe Catholics are going to not be saved because of all the extra stuff.
I say if you need all this extra stuff to believe, I do not want to be a stumbling block.
Romans 14
1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
…
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister?
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schaick
Guest
The way Paul explains it:
1 Corinthians 3
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Here maybe this will help:
If you as a believer are doing good work you will receive reward. If you as a believer are not doing good work why should you receive a reward? Don’t worry you won’t!
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PRmerger
Guest
Yet is says that this person is “saved”. How can this person is “not doing good work” be SAVED?
will suffer loss** but yet will be saved**
How does one “suffer” and have “loss” in heaven?
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PRmerger
Guest
Surely you don’t mean this, schaick. Do you mean perpetually a virgin?
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schaick
Guest
We are saved by faith. It is not in heaven but at the judgement seat of Christ.Yet is says that this person is “saved”. How can this person is “not doing good work” be SAVED?
will suffer loss** but yet will be saved**
How does one “suffer” and have “loss” in heaven?
OK how about this - Suffer loss of bad works. That is actually a good thing. Hopefully because our faith is alive through works and we will do good works we will receive rewards.
These are Paul’s words, I didn’t make them up- study it pray about it.
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schaick
Guest
No, from Scripture we know she was a virgin-Catholics have added the perpetually virgin ideas.
So we know as truth because it is in Scripture:
Mary was a virgin
The Holy Spirit is Vicar
Jesus is the Ark of the New Covenant
Mary for a short time was the Temple as now we are all Temples
The Holy Bible is final and sufficient authority
There were no priests in the early church
Paul had acess to Luke
The Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles with Jesus as chief cornerstone
Catholics have added to the truth and so what we do not accept:
Mary perpetually virgin and immaculately concieved
Pope is Vicar
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant
Scripture, Tradition and the Magestrate is final authority
The Church is built solely on Peter
You said-the Catholic faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever committed to paper.
This is not true. The Catholic Church of today has developed way beyond the small home Churches of New Testament times.
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CopticChristian
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CopticChristian
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You do understand that your theology of salvation was born of Catholics like Zwingli, Knox, Calvin, Luther. 3 priests and a lawyer. Your notion of salvation is novel at best. Just realize that you are applying misinformed Catholic teaching and applying it to the Catholic fold that in time did not follow these misinformed Catholics. Let me put it another way.
Heretic Catholics taught bad things and many followed. These people fostered their beliefs through marriage, family, and in time we have you and others like you.
Faithful Catholics did not follow the bad teachings and continued to follow the Church teachings and fostered their beliefs through marriage, family, and in time we have me and others like me who with a smile say…did you not know that your teachings are falling on deaf ears…many generations have come and gone since that time of bad teaching…while there are things you may bring to the table for discussion changing theological perspectives is not one of them.
Paul, my favorite and yours says…
I am often amused by the other than Catholic Christian that imposes their ignorance on salvation as they learned it, another gospel, not that there is another gospel, they just haven’t read Paul enough. Stop with your ignorant wondering about who is saved, based on your poor Catholic teaching from bad Catholic priests.
Spend your time wondering about your own salvation not others. Stop doing what Christians are not supposed to do, judging others. Faith, Hope, Love abide in you and that is through Baptism, a gift not of your own and let the Spirit of Charity be your guide. Awaken to the reality that you bring nothing to the table concerning salvation for me, look in the mirror, pray.
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Roy5
Guest
Yes, I would like there to be unity among Christians, too - not a union, but a spirit of unity. There is too much senseless antagonism, so evident here on CAF.
**
Re: 3 - Afterlife.** Frankly, I think that we have very little knowledge of what will happen to us after our death. I accept the concept of eternal life, certainly, but beyond that I leave the details up to God. I somehow doubt that there is a physical hell where the wicked burn eternally. Etc. To me, that contradicts the very nature of God. How many times we should forgive - 70 x 7 etc. Would we expect less from God. I think that good Christians can have very different opinions on this question. “Now we see through a glass darkly…”
** Re: 4 - Homosexuality.** I personally am against same-sex marriage, but over the years I have gradually arrived at the conclusion that some people seem to be born with a same-sex attraction. If so, I think we have to view them sympathetically and not stand in judgement. If they are born that way, was it God’s will? If not, was it something beyond their control? Tough issue, and we need to reflect on it kindly rather than harshly.
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The main problem is that certain Catholics and Protestants insist on narrow beliefs that many - both Catholics and Protestants - have trouble with.
For example:Re: 3 - Afterlife.** Frankly, I think that we have very little knowledge of what will happen to us after our death. I accept the concept of eternal life, certainly, but beyond that I leave the details up to God. I somehow doubt that there is a physical hell where the wicked burn eternally. Etc. To me, that contradicts the very nature of God. How many times we should forgive - 70 x 7 etc. Would we expect less from God. I think that good Christians can have very different opinions on this question. “Now we see through a glass darkly…”
** Re: 4 - Homosexuality.** I personally am against same-sex marriage, but over the years I have gradually arrived at the conclusion that some people seem to be born with a same-sex attraction. If so, I think we have to view them sympathetically and not stand in judgement. If they are born that way, was it God’s will? If not, was it something beyond their control? Tough issue, and we need to reflect on it kindly rather than harshly.
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**Re: 7 - Salvation.** Now, this is where - again - I leave all judgement to God. I stayed with a Hindu family in India for awhile years ago, a wonderful couple and their children. I can't imagine God punishing them for the way they were raised. I would avoid passing judgement when only God has the right to do that. And I think of God as compassionate. Why would he condemn a Hindu to eternal hell? That doesn't make sense to me - even if that Hindu knows about Jesus. This was a highly educated family that admired Christ, even had their children in a Christian school, but held on to the traditions of their forefathers.
I presume I can be judged severely because I am skeptical of giving undue attention to creeds. My faith in Christ focuses more upon his gospel of love rather than dividing and judging people based on their religious doctrines or church membership. After all, 'faith, hope and love, these three. But the greatest of these is love'.
God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us make Christianity a bridge instead of a barrier. Narrow Christian tribalism - in my view - contradicts the spirit of Jesus, our Lord, Example, and Redeemer.
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asd72
Guest
Just in respect to the perpetual virginity of Mary. I know you don’t believe in Church Tradition, but I would challenge you to at least consider why the Catholic, Orthodox, and all the Protestant reformers supported this doctrine and you don’t.
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asd72
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Double post.
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asd72
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JOHN CALVIN
There have been certain strange folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25 published 1562).
MARTIN LUTHER
“A virgin BEFORE the conception and birth, she remained a virgin also AT the birth and AFTER it” ( Feb 2, 1546 Feast of Presentation of Christ in the temple)
ZURICH ZWINGLI
“I firmly believe according to the words of the Gospel that a pure virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and remained a virgin pure and intact in childbirth, and after the birth, and for all eternity. I firmly trust that she has been exalted by God to eternal joy above all creatures, both the blessed and the angels.”
(From Augustine Bea “Mary and the Protestant” MARIA STUDIES)
There have been certain strange folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25 published 1562).
MARTIN LUTHER
“A virgin BEFORE the conception and birth, she remained a virgin also AT the birth and AFTER it” ( Feb 2, 1546 Feast of Presentation of Christ in the temple)
ZURICH ZWINGLI
“I firmly believe according to the words of the Gospel that a pure virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and remained a virgin pure and intact in childbirth, and after the birth, and for all eternity. I firmly trust that she has been exalted by God to eternal joy above all creatures, both the blessed and the angels.”
(From Augustine Bea “Mary and the Protestant” MARIA STUDIES)
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asd72
Guest
I would also like to question the application you have used for the passage of Romans. You seem to be relating it the doctrinal issues you have stated above, where as I would argue it is not.
I am sure you are aware there were issues in the early Church regarding Jewish laws and the application under the New Covenant. The ’ Weak in Faith’ in this passage refers to a Jewish Christian minority who maintain a distinctive vegetarian diet (Rom 14:2), observes the liturgical feast days of Israel (Rom14:5-6), and the food laws of the Torah (Rom14:14) Ref Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament.
And why are these disputable matters? …
For the Kingdom of God does not mean food or drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Heb 14:17).
And turning to Church doctrine we read in (2 Thess 2:15) in relation to salvation…
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught by us, either by WORD OF MOUTH or by letter.
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PRmerger
Guest
Okay. There is nothing in this paradigm that is inconsistent with purgatory.
Huh? Suffer loss of bad works?
What does that mean?
Like if I ignore a beggar on a street (i.e. a bad work) I suffer in heaven? That’s what you’re saying? Huh?
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PRmerger
Guest
Not added. Always there from the beginning, schaick. Otherwise, it calls into question Jesus’ divinity if the womb which bore Him Whom the World Could Not Contain also bore other sinful creatures.
Please cite the verse in Scripture that says the bolded section. Chapter and verse, please.
There is no Catholic teaching that proclaims that the “Church is built solely on Peter.”
The Church is built on Jesus. And he appointed Peter (and his successors) to be his visible head.
Yes, it developed in the way that a tree grows newer and more lush fruit. But it is still the same tree.
Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.CCC 66
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schaick
Guest
We = protestants in general, the list I saw on another forum talking about all the things Protestants agree with. The list was started because Catholics on that forum said there was no agreement between Protestants.
“We” know that the Scripture was circulating as letters and codices way before the Universal Church became the Roman Catholic Church. I personally believe it started down the wrong path when it became involved in politics- around Constantine time.
Catholics seem to have a need to find the disagreements and not similarities. Thats ok I will not be a stumbling block to those that need the extra trappings to be Christian.
Did you not know the early Church met in homes? Do Coptics allow this today? Do you need a priest to consecrate the bread and wine? Question do Coptic Christians like Catholics worship the conscecrated wafer?
Yes I understand the earliest tiny piece of New Testament is from around 125AD. All seem to forget that the Gospel message was revealed to us in the Old Testament long before Jesus built HIS universal Church.
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