I think I am bi

[brotherjoe]

Hi brotherjoe - You asked about Judaism - Judaism does indeed have rules against masturbation, just as it did in Jesus’ time as well. See catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp
and
google.com/search?hl=en&q=masturbation+site%3Aaskmoses.com

Dear Hermie:

I appreciate the links. Again, I’m clear on the Church’s teaching, but in all honesty I can’t see a real connection between Onan and masturbation. Contraception, yes. And I see nothing in Leviticus except a reference that a wet dream caused ritual impurity for one day. Nothing to make a good old Jewish boy refrain. Also your rabbinical quotes, however valid, post-date Jesus.

As to my other so-called points, I’m just not quite happy with “how” orthodox catholics approach the issue. Liberals are often tempted to play God and rewrite the rules, as if they could, but they do so in the name of all the “human” aspects of behavior: Needs, temptation, suffering, ignorance…what’s in the heart sort of thing. I thing Jesus was perfectly able to do both and he frustrated both the die-hard liberals and conservatives of his day. I think our teenage friend would benefit from a little better balance in our response.

 

[Wammy101]

I have told myself that I will not deside if I am gay until I am older. I know that hormones are crazy at my age.

good call. it may seem hard, but dont declare your self bi/ gay until you are 10000000% that you hormones (hate them) have left, and your real brain has taken over again.

 

[urban-hermit]

Dear Hermie:

I appreciate the links. Again, I’m clear on the Church’s teaching, but in all honesty I can’t see a real connection between Onan and masturbation. Contraception, yes. And I see nothing in Leviticus except a reference that a wet dream caused ritual impurity for one day. Nothing to make a good old Jewish boy refrain. Also your rabbinical quotes, however valid, post-date Jesus.

Dear brotherjoe,

masturbation and contraception both seek to isolate the pleasure of sex from the purpose of sex. Don’t worry if you still don’t see the connection. As long as we both are Catholics who are clear on the Church’s teaching - i.e., that “masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action” - then it doesn’t make sense to waste time arguing over Judaism.

As to my other so-called points, I’m just not quite happy with “how” orthodox catholics approach the issue.

Orthodox Catholic?.. What’s that? - I thought you were either Catholic or you weren’t.

Liberals are often tempted to play God and rewrite the rules, as if they could, but they do so in the name of all the “human” aspects of behavior: Needs, temptation, suffering, ignorance…what’s in the heart sort of thing.

I agree that they often have good intentions. But I think the results speak for themselves.

I think our teenage friend would benefit from a little better balance in our response.

Dear brotherjoe - there is no such thing as “our response”. There is “your response” and there is “my response”. If you would like to inject “balance” into “your response”, you are free to do so.

 

[brotherjoe]

Dear brotherjoe,

Dear brotherjoe - there is no such thing as “our response”. There is “your response” and there is “my response”. If you would like to inject “balance” into “your response”, you are free to do so.

What I meant by this was that Teen has received a couple dozen responses. I felt that the overall tenor of them, taken as a whole, had more focus on the rules and less on the person than ideal. I’m not trying to be critical, they are all valid and appropriately phrased responses…this is so hard, trying to be clear when expressing such vague feelings…

Thanks for responding.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Orthodox Catholic?.. What’s that? - I thought you were either Catholic or you weren’t.

I believe brotherjoe meant orthodox Catholic, not Orthodox Catholic, the latter being an impossibility (someone who both accepts and rejects the primacy of the Pope at the same time?) and the former merely being a faithful Catholic who doesn’t promulgate heresy.

What I meant by this was that Teen has received a couple dozen responses. I felt that the overall tenor of them, taken as a whole, had more focus on the rules and less on the person than ideal. I’m not trying to be critical, they are all valid and appropriately phrased responses…this is so hard, trying to be clear when expressing such vague feelings…

Thanks for responding.

I agree with you, brotherjoe; personal, Spirit-based responses are always ultimately preferable to mere rhetoric used to argue for rules. I think most of the recent posts have tended towards just defending the rule simply because of one or two individuals who were openly attacking it. I think it would help the OP if we described the wonderful conversion and recapitulation of body and heart towards which Catholic sexual morality points.

However, I still want to be incredibly clear on one objective, rules-oriented point: the Spirit of Catholic sexual morality, the indredible transformation of one’s sexual desires into a form that beautifully images God’s own love, can and will never allow masturbation. Very rare is the case in which following the Spirit of the law involves breaking the letter of the law rather than transcending it. Masturbation can never, ever image God’s love as human sexuality is meant to. We can have no delusions about following the Spirit of the law ultimately allowing masturbation in some cases. It cannot ever allow that; the wonderful transformation and recapitulation of sexual desire that God wills for all people can never involve masturbation; indeed, it is the very antithesis of it.

God bless.

 

[Transformer]

Darn it!

I accidentally used my brother’s account again. The above post by Fone Bone 2001 is, in fact, by me, Transformer.

 

[AndyF]

kell0618:

Your not.

Your inclination sexually to the opposite sex is normal, the opposite is a temptation and proves evil’s capability in presenting it to you in similar ways. You were able to become an ideal victim by exploitation of something you did or something you should have done or should be doing assisted by the ideal environment.

The neat thing is that it doesn’t call on a deep self analysis to figure out what has gone wrong. That is not required. You know it’s already wrong and in trust you have no other interest but to reject these influences.

AndyF

 

[truelove_88]

My advice:

Don’t sweat it. It’s unneccessary stress. In 5 years you’ll look back and realize it was a way bigger deal than you thought it was. Most folks here are quick to flood you with guilt trips…
Don’t buy in to it. Others will give you tons of advice that (1) won’t work and (2) will just leave you frustrated and very stressed out…

Basically, here’s what happens when you try to follow the Church’s teaching on masturbation (don’t do it):
You’ll go through a continuous cycle of guilt. You’ve probably already felt it.** It will start with sexual arousal of some kind** - that you may or may not be able to suppress. If you’re strictly following the conservative position within Catholicism, you’ll try very hard to make those feelings go away. You might succeed for a day or two - maybe even a week (especially if you’re busy). But eventually it will be too much and you’ll give in. And when it’s over, you will remember what people on this forum have told you and you’ll feel horribly guilty about it. You’ll continue to feel guilty about it until you go to confession - where you can clear your conscience and have that feeling of freedom.** Until, of course, you get aroused again**. And then you’ll give in. And feel guilty about it. And go to confession and feel great. And so on and so on.

Of course, you’ll continue to do things to help stop yourself. Maybe you will start praying the rosary every day. Maybe you’ll even take Jehu’s advice (and I really hope you don’t) and hurt yourself. Maybe you’ll start counting the days since you last masturbated. Maybe you’ll fast. Or go to mass every day. But, of course, all of this only reinforces the guilt/redemption cycle and will never solve (what you percieve to be) the real problem.

Let me tell you something: That cycle is very unhealthy. It’s very bad. It’s unneccessary stress at a very critical time of development. I highly recommend you just close this forum and don’t worry about it. Don’t listen to these religious people - thier advice will only serve to reinforce the guilt trip. It will only make things worse. That much, I can garuntee you. You won’t feel better by feeling bad about it. Going to confession every week won’t help. Hurting yourself won’t help. Counting the “sober” days won’t help. Praying the rosary every day won’t help. Fasting won’t help. Nothing is going to help the real problem - which is the guilt trip itself.

You’re a teenager. You’ve got raging hormones. Those two factors are hard enough to deal with. There is absolutely no reason you need to make matters worse by worrying over all this.

My final advice:

It’s okay to masturbate (gasp! I said it!).

Be chill. Be a teenager. Grow and learn. Go play sports or play games or whatever you teenagers like to do. When you do masturbate, don’t worry about it. Keep it private and move on with your life. It’s nothing to worry about. Teenage boys have been doing it for thousands of years. It’s normal. It’s probably even healthy.

Stop the cycle of guilt. It does you more harm than good.

Now I know I am going to get heat from this, but hey I like the chase.
What the heck are you telling this young man, have you lost your marbles, he is sincerely trying to discern Gods will.

Just trying to willow foot around the matter is not going to help him,

1. masturbation is a mortal sin, deadly
2. the homosexual act is a mortal sin, deadly
3. Pornography is a mortal sin, deadly
   Mortal sin means death to the soul you are cut off from God saving graces until you confess those sins with a firm resolution of amendment to never do it again.
   How could any one in good conscience tell this young man who is earnestly trying to be a GOOD CATHOLIC to commit mortal sin. I would suggest that unless you want to be a determinant to this young mans soul, you first seek advice from a GOOD SOLID CATHOLIC source before you go spouting your heretical idealizations and do any more harm.
   you will be in my prayers.
   God bless.

 

[truelove_88]

With God, all things are possible. Giving up is pathetic. This young man is heroic and courageous for seeking virtue.

When you do it right, you experience divine grace, the transformation (not elimination) of your sexual desire, a life of virtue, and freedom from concupiscence.

Here you demonstrate a complete lack of comprehension of the Catholic moral life. Your statement that “following the conservative position with Catholicism” entails trying “very hard to make those feelings go away” reveals both a foolish misunderstanding of the Catholic understanding of human sexuality in its theological teachings and a misconception of the practical ways to avoid sin. You clearly haven’t tried a life of sexual virtue, as your words demonstrate an ignorance of even the most basic ideas on purity.

Don’t respond to this by claiming that you do understand Catholic teachings on human sexuality; it’s too late for that. Your words will be hollow and empty, for you’ve already demonstrated by them that you understand very little.

The method you describe is indeed foolish and doesn’t work. You are one of the few people I’ve heard from who actually thinks this way of attempting to eliminate sin - clearly described and denouned by Christopher West in Good News About Sex & Marriage - is advocated by the Church.

Your audacity is truly amazing; don’t you realize that you’re in blatant denial, as there are many examples of living people right now who have had problems with masturbation, and no longer do?

Sit back a moment and reflect on the arrogant nature of your claims - you’re either claiming that the people I described above (those who have successfully stopped masturbating and are happy and spiritual) either don’t exist (what, are they illusions or something?) or that all of them are complete liars.

How ridiculous.

Guilt has a purpose, just like pain. Without pain, we would probably physically die very soon. Without guilt,spiritual death is just as inevitable.

This young man wants help from fellow orthodox Catholics on how to overcome his habit of habitual masturbation and how to live a life of sexual virtue. Your “advice” is not welcome here. Take your rationalizations somewhere else to people who have had so little exposure to God’s grace that they may actually see them as wise.

I pity anyone who thinks the only way to stop guilt is to stop listening to it. I pity anyone who thinks virtue is not possible, or at least not compatible with happiness.

I will pray for you.

will you be my friend :bowdown2:

 

[truelove_88]

It’s not a sin.

He shouldn’t worry about it.

No one should.

Again words from the ignorant.
Do you have absolutely no morality at all, is your conscience so malformed that you think sinning purposefully is pleasing to God. My word man get a clue, and not the game.
This is a Catholic website, for Catholics and those who are interested in the Faith. hint hint.
This young man needs our help not bad advice from someone who has no regard for the sanctification of his soul.

Typical teen
keep up the good work, God will bless you abundantly for your trials and hardships, especially if you keep close to Him at all times. Just remember anything is possible with God, my personal advice is to read the book true devotion to Mary, by saint Louis D’montfort sp? The Blessed Mother is the one you should connect yourself to the most, she has great love for you.She is also the one to go for when you need a prayer answered fast.
Because when you go to her and ask her to ask Our Lord, It will be looked at with more favor; cause, Our Lord denies nothing to he Blessed Mother as long as it is in accordance with the will of God.

To stay on subject,
with your feelings of same sex attractions, hey I used to have those all the time when I was 15, people used to call me the most horrible names, you know I was not that interested in the Faith, became a horrible flirt to show them I was straight and so on. For a while I actually thought I was a lesbian. Then one day I met this awesome catholic, who later became my confirmation sponsor and she helped to turn that all around for me, I became a better catholic, learned to deal with those feelings and here I am today, 20, married and a baby on the way. So like they say, with God nothing is impossible.
The truth is I still get those attractions every now and then, and how I handle them is : I offer hem to God so that he might draw a good from them,
I pray and go to confession so that I will have the graces necessary to fight them,
I don’t watch immodest shows, or listen to immodest lyrics.
I busy myself,
And again I pray.
They are temptations that I have to fight off just like any body else, but I know that with Gods help I will be able to.

You are in my prayers,
and remember that God loves you and so does you Catholic family The Holy Mother Church. :grouphug:

God bless.

 

[truelove_88]

Update: There is a clause somewhere in the doctrine regarding mortal sin that if you intend to go to confession when you die, you’re okay.

Do you like hula hoops? cause you sure do keep going in circles.

It seems that every time you post you post something hateful and negative about the Catholic church.
If you hate it or don’t want to be a catholic then don’t, but please don’t try and slam the Faith, especially when there are so many here that want to really learn and truly love the Holy Mother Church.
I wouldn’t go into your home and start trashing it, out of respect that is. but then again you may honestly not know what respect is, It seems very apparent that you don’t from your posts.
So hint number one,
Take head out sand, and voilla the light.

 

[truelove_88]

I gotta say, this is probably one of the most lucid responses so far.

You obviously have not read mine :bounce:

 

[truelove_88]

Oh now I get it.

 

[Exalt]

Do you like hula hoops? cause you sure do keep going in circles.

It seems that every time you post you post something hateful and negative about the Catholic church.
If you hate it or don’t want to be a catholic then don’t, but please don’t try and slam the Faith, especially when there are so many here that want to really learn and truly love the Holy Mother Church.
I wouldn’t go into your home and start trashing it, out of respect that is. but then again you may honestly not know what respect is, It seems very apparent that you don’t from your posts.
So hint number one.

This is a public forum, first of all.

Second, I know quite a number of catholics who feel the exact same way that I do about this issue.

Third, the kid needs to hear the truth. I’m not trashing catholicism. I think many catholics are awesome people and I have respect for the tradition as a whole. However, many teachings are pretty silly and can be very stressful for a teen boy struggling to grow up. This is one of them. The kid should stop worrying and just be a kid. So he masturbates. Who cares? The vast majority of teen boys do and it’s no big deal. It shouldn’t be the concern of the Church.

 

[goofyjim]

Again words from the ignorant.
Do you have absolutely no morality at all, is your conscience so malformed that you think sinning purposefully is pleasing to God. My word man get a clue, and not the game.
This is a Catholic website, for Catholics and those who are interested in the Faith. hint hint.
This young man needs our help not bad advice from someone who has no regard for the sanctification of his soul.

Typical teen
keep up the good work, God will bless you abundantly for your trials and hardships, especially if you keep close to Him at all times. Just remember anything is possible with God, my personal advice is to read the book true devotion to Mary, by saint Louis D’montfort sp? The Blessed Mother is the one you should connect yourself to the most, she has great love for you.She is also the one to go for when you need a prayer answered fast.
Because when you go to her and ask her to ask Our Lord, It will be looked at with more favor; cause, Our Lord denies nothing to he Blessed Mother as long as it is in accordance with the will of God.

To stay on subject,
with your feelings of same sex attractions, hey I used to have those all the time when I was 15, people used to call me the most horrible names, you know I was not that interested in the Faith, became a horrible flirt to show them I was straight and so on. For a while I actually thought I was a lesbian. Then one day I met this awesome catholic, who later became my confirmation sponsor and she helped to turn that all around for me, I became a better catholic, learned to deal with those feelings and here I am today, 20, married and a baby on the way. So like they say, with God nothing is impossible.
The truth is I still get those attractions every now and then, and how I handle them is : I offer hem to God so that he might draw a good from them,
I pray and go to confession so that I will have the graces necessary to fight them,
I don’t watch immodest shows, or listen to immodest lyrics.
I busy myself,
And again I pray.
They are temptations that I have to fight off just like any body else, but I know that with Gods help I will be able to.

You are in my prayers,
and remember that God loves you and so does you Catholic family The Holy Mother Church. :grouphug:

God bless.

But the attractions to the same sex may never go away and to give everybody the blanket hope that they will is foolishness. For some they may go away. Personally I experience both. I don’t really care and as long as they don’t turn into outright lust I don’t fight them off. If I see a cute girl so be it. If I see a good looking guy and acknowledge it so be it. I am not afraid of what others think of me either way. I am not acting on it but consider myself bi as well. If others don’t like it, tough. I know God loves me either way.

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all who have participated. This thread is now closed.