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Needy1
Guest
I’ve saw this statement multiple times on both CAF and CCC.
However, by what power these people move their spirit to hell? Do they have such power and authority?
I think the statement “Sinners send themselves to hell by themselves” is incorrect. Why do some Christians believe it?
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However, by what power these people move their spirit to hell? Do they have such power and authority?
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Needy1
Guest
So are you thinking that they deserve the eternal damnation?
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Shelion
Guest
I didn’t question the existence of evil… But thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Still it doesn’t at all answer the question how God talks to such individuals that didn’t deelop conscience - we are not God we don’t know HOW, or whether they truly have no conscience at all, some remnants of it.
St Paul wrote that God uses vessels that are good and those that are not so (good and bad instuments), meaning that the gold is tried in fire, through trials and persecutions etc, and also that the world is full of sinners already - all of us are sinners. Some are hardened, some are trying to be holy. It doesn’t follow then that God NEEDS psychopats…
and I have trouble believing that psychopats - that particular brand, will simply be turned into saints, the same way people who strive for holiness consciously. Unless you talk of conversion at the moment of death. Then I already said before - in that case everything is possible.
Still it doesn’t at all answer the question how God talks to such individuals that didn’t deelop conscience - we are not God we don’t know HOW, or whether they truly have no conscience at all, some remnants of it.
St Paul wrote that God uses vessels that are good and those that are not so (good and bad instuments), meaning that the gold is tried in fire, through trials and persecutions etc, and also that the world is full of sinners already - all of us are sinners. Some are hardened, some are trying to be holy. It doesn’t follow then that God NEEDS psychopats…
and I have trouble believing that psychopats - that particular brand, will simply be turned into saints, the same way people who strive for holiness consciously. Unless you talk of conversion at the moment of death. Then I already said before - in that case everything is possible.
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Shelion
Guest
Are you Catholic? … I think your image of God is your image of God - not God as He IS. Why? Because of how you picture things here.
Do you agree that God is OMNISCIENT? And infinitely Holy and also infinitely Wise? Also, Mercy and Love? Because you keep writing things that undermine all those attributes…
For instance - you CHOOSE the wide path. It’s close to impossible to turn back in the end, because of your choices - God gave us all free will, He never acts against it, you want to be forced to love? God wants love that comes from will, He doesn’t need slaves… or robots.
And - you write as if you didn’t know, wasn’t aware how much He has already done! He came to this very world as mere man, suffered poverty, hunger, cold, indifference, blasphemies etc and at the end horrbile tortures and crucifiction for your sins. And for all of humanity sins. The burden is unimaginable. He sweated blood. He had moments of weakness so He asked God the Father to spare Him the chalice but He nonetheless accepted Father’s Will.
That’s too little for you?.. He cares less for people than you for stray dogs and cats?
He also gave us the Bible, the prophets, the Eucharists, countless saints, the conscience…
And so much more!
And you keep asking - but does anyone deserve Hell, if it is horrible? Well I had that problem once, though not so intensely as you. Once you realise how much God has done, is doing and will keep doing for ever, you won’t understand how He does EVERYTHING in His power to stop people from going to Hell. Include in all this our Lady, not only of Fatima, but in general. She’s been doing a lot too. And the Church prays for sinner. This Church militant, pilgrims as we are, and the Triumphant one in Heaven.
So how does one deserve Hell - by willingly rejecting God. Hell is most of all the absence of God. And it’s its worst aspect. If you keep rejecting Him all the time, until death, at the moment of death you just continue on you path. After all, nothing unclean can enter Heaven, and purgatory is for those that CHOSE God, but are to be purified still.
Last but not least. God is infinite, and infinitely Holy. We are mere nothings in comparisons and yet He loves us infinitely! Now, you have to understand the enormity and evil of sin, particularly mortal sin commited against such Majesty and Greatness. If you offend/hurt your brother, it’s bad but still worse if you offend/hurt say, a girl/ widow, or a child. If you offend/hurt more of them it is still worse (say one tortures a hundred of babies or young girls) and so on. Make your own scale. Now please imagine you offend Infinite Goodness, Wisdom and Holiness and you do it consciously and continually… What punishment is appropriate - ten minutes of Hell? A hundred years etc? Basically - who are WE, humans to decide what punishment is appropriate? Shouldn’t it be the Creator of all humanity, the One that was Nailed to the Cross for our tresspasses? Somebody who doesn’t just love you infinitely perfectly but Whose love never ceases?
And even though we call it punishement it still remains self-inflicted… With all the consequences.
Do you agree that God is OMNISCIENT? And infinitely Holy and also infinitely Wise? Also, Mercy and Love? Because you keep writing things that undermine all those attributes…
For instance - you CHOOSE the wide path. It’s close to impossible to turn back in the end, because of your choices - God gave us all free will, He never acts against it, you want to be forced to love? God wants love that comes from will, He doesn’t need slaves… or robots.
And - you write as if you didn’t know, wasn’t aware how much He has already done! He came to this very world as mere man, suffered poverty, hunger, cold, indifference, blasphemies etc and at the end horrbile tortures and crucifiction for your sins. And for all of humanity sins. The burden is unimaginable. He sweated blood. He had moments of weakness so He asked God the Father to spare Him the chalice but He nonetheless accepted Father’s Will.
That’s too little for you?.. He cares less for people than you for stray dogs and cats?
He also gave us the Bible, the prophets, the Eucharists, countless saints, the conscience…
And so much more!
And you keep asking - but does anyone deserve Hell, if it is horrible? Well I had that problem once, though not so intensely as you. Once you realise how much God has done, is doing and will keep doing for ever, you won’t understand how He does EVERYTHING in His power to stop people from going to Hell. Include in all this our Lady, not only of Fatima, but in general. She’s been doing a lot too. And the Church prays for sinner. This Church militant, pilgrims as we are, and the Triumphant one in Heaven.
So how does one deserve Hell - by willingly rejecting God. Hell is most of all the absence of God. And it’s its worst aspect. If you keep rejecting Him all the time, until death, at the moment of death you just continue on you path. After all, nothing unclean can enter Heaven, and purgatory is for those that CHOSE God, but are to be purified still.
Last but not least. God is infinite, and infinitely Holy. We are mere nothings in comparisons and yet He loves us infinitely! Now, you have to understand the enormity and evil of sin, particularly mortal sin commited against such Majesty and Greatness. If you offend/hurt your brother, it’s bad but still worse if you offend/hurt say, a girl/ widow, or a child. If you offend/hurt more of them it is still worse (say one tortures a hundred of babies or young girls) and so on. Make your own scale. Now please imagine you offend Infinite Goodness, Wisdom and Holiness and you do it consciously and continually… What punishment is appropriate - ten minutes of Hell? A hundred years etc? Basically - who are WE, humans to decide what punishment is appropriate? Shouldn’t it be the Creator of all humanity, the One that was Nailed to the Cross for our tresspasses? Somebody who doesn’t just love you infinitely perfectly but Whose love never ceases?
And even though we call it punishement it still remains self-inflicted… With all the consequences.
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halogirl
Guest
That’s not my place to think that. And their destination is up to God. At the moment though they are totally closed to God, and even the possibility of God and mock those who love him. They don’t want to be with Him right now I know that. God works miracles all the time and conversions so I hope in that.
People take up tobacco products for the first time every day knowing it causes health problems.
MTV demonstrates for us new levels of debauchery during spring break.
Murderers think they can get away with it.
Thieves likewise think they can get away with it.
People drive over the speed limit every day, believing they won’t get caught.
In every case, they know full well the consequences. Know full well that it is something that will harm them. Know they could easily choose not to.
And do it anyway.
It is perfectly logical that this penchant towards self destructive behavior would extend to the last decision we have.
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goout
Guest
Sin does not contribute to reason, it detracts from it.vz71:
Then, why wouldn’t these people torture themselves until themselves die? If they’re rational person, they would not torture themselves.
Sin darkens the intellect.
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goout
Guest
Have you ever broken up with a loved one, or been through a divorce, or had a break in a parent/child relationship?amazingcatholic:
I’ve saw this statement multiple times on both CAF and CCC.
However, by what power these people move their spirit to hell? Do they have such power and authority?
Have any of those happened to you?
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Vico
Guest
A different phrase could be used but it remains, per Catholic dogma, that God created mankind, each person with a rational soul with free will. The verb send is defined in Merriam-Webster: “to cause to go”. Mortal sin causes exclusion and mortal sin is a free will act or omission.
Catechism
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Culpability may be lessened, mitigated, due to many factors including mental illness.
I do believe that some mental illness terms are thrown about far to liberally, sometimes people have simply sinned so much that they have dulled or deadened their sense of right and wrong.
Websites and magazines and TV shows love to slap mental illness labels on people “Is Your Boyfriend a Narcissist?” “10 Ways to Know Your Neighbor Is A Sociopath”.
I am not a mental health professional, so, diagnoses is left in their capable hands.
It is not my job or any of our job to determine how culpable anyone is for sins. I do not worry that Pol Pot may have had X mental illness and may not be culpable for his sins. That is between Pol Pot and God.
Edit to add: Last night I listened to a podcast with my adult son. The speakers in that discussion reminded me of this thread
I do believe that some mental illness terms are thrown about far to liberally, sometimes people have simply sinned so much that they have dulled or deadened their sense of right and wrong.
Websites and magazines and TV shows love to slap mental illness labels on people “Is Your Boyfriend a Narcissist?” “10 Ways to Know Your Neighbor Is A Sociopath”.
I am not a mental health professional, so, diagnoses is left in their capable hands.
It is not my job or any of our job to determine how culpable anyone is for sins. I do not worry that Pol Pot may have had X mental illness and may not be culpable for his sins. That is between Pol Pot and God.
Edit to add: Last night I listened to a podcast with my adult son. The speakers in that discussion reminded me of this thread
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John10
Guest
You got it wrong. CCC does not allow it. The Catholic Church teaches
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a mortal sin (a sin that destroys charity in the soul) as “a sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
Contraception is a sin that gravely violates God’s design for human sexuality. The Catechism states:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a mortal sin (a sin that destroys charity in the soul) as “a sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
Contraception is a sin that gravely violates God’s design for human sexuality. The Catechism states:
So, if an individual engages in contraceptive sex, fully knowing that it is gravely sinful, and chooses it without any mitigating factors to lessen one’s culpability, charity will cease to exist within that individual’s soul. In other words, the act will have a mortal effect within the soul.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
At the personal judgement, when they die, their wishes are honored and they go to hell. We do not know the “method of transportation”.
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Godfollower
Guest
If I never eat anything but junk food and eat way too much of it, and I never exercise, and I smoke, and I drink to excess, and I abuse drugs, and I end up suffering from obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, can’t I be said to have chosen that fate? No, I didn’t affirmatively say “I choose this lot in life,” but I made the choices that led to that fate.
Good thing there’s an institution around here that’s warning me of the consequences of the choices I’m making, so I can make better choices and (with help) change my fate.
Good thing there’s an institution around here that’s warning me of the consequences of the choices I’m making, so I can make better choices and (with help) change my fate.
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amazingcatholic
Guest
We don’t know for sure if they are in hell. But, God will punish us if we do not repent.
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Needy1
Guest
The word “contraception“ doesn’t include this method?
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John10
Guest
Right after that the following is said:
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality… the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality… the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
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Needy1
Guest
What? Why would you ask it?
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goout
Guest
Because you objected to this:goout:
What? Why would you ask it?
And I am pointing out to you that actions have consequences, and one of those consequences is the rupturing of relationships. (in the context of our relationship with God, that’s called “hell”)
So, the “power”, or responsibility, to move one’s spirit to hell is a consequence of abusing your freedom as a human being.
That’s why I asked you this, to make that point apparent:
so you should know by natural reason that choosing poorly results in broken relationships with others, and God is certainly “other”. So whether we want to claim responsibility for the consequences of our choices or not, the consequences remain.
The question becomes, do we want to live a life of responsibility or a life of abdication?
Abdicating our responsibilities makes us slaves. Taking responsibility opens the way to love (or, “heaven”).
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