I want to know more about Aethism! help me please

[MegaTherion]

Atheists often claim to know the truth, which is that there is no god, yet they never seem to come up with any proof that God does not exist.

Yikes. You don’t learn about reality by assuming that things exist and then trying to prove them wrong. You learn about reality by using what you observe to come to conclusions.

If someone makes a claim not supported by evidence, then you are free to reject that claim without evidence.

For example, I don’t believe in the Loch Ness Monster. I have never seen any convincing evidence of the Loch Ness Monster, so I’m free to disbelieve in it. That disbelief doesn’t take a leap of faith; it’s not a claim of absolute certainty or truth. It simply means I don’t accept claims about this creature because there is no reason to accept those claims.

That’s all that atheism is.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

MegaTherion

Likening the existence of the Loch Ness Monster to the existence of God is hardly comparable.

When you say you don’t believe in a Loch Ness Monster, you have no reason to be concerned for your welfare. When you say there is no God, you had better have a good deal more reason to believe there is no God than that there is no Monster. The welfare of your immortal soul depends on it.

 

[MegaTherion]

When you say you don’t believe in a Loch Ness Monster, you have no reason to be concerned for your welfare. When you say there is no God, you had better have a good deal more reason to believe there is no God than that there is no Monster. The welfare of your immortal soul depends on it.

That’s just silly. Threats don’t change the amount of evidence available for a given thing.

If you told me that Nessie will torture my soul forever in a lake of fire if I don’t believe he exists, it wouldn’t change the fact that there’s no evidence for Nessie. I still wouldn’t believe in it.

Similarly, if a Hindu or Muslim threated you with his version of hell for not believing in his god(s), you wouldn’t change your mind.

What if I told you that the Flying Spaghetti Monster will torture your immortal soul in boiling tomato sauce if you don’t believe in him? Would that make you have to come up with “a good deal more reason” not to believe in the FSM?

What do threats have to do with truth?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

MegaTherion
*
What do threats have to do with truth?*

They a great deal to do with it. If you think it is a **truth **that you can fly off the top of a sky scraper by flapping your arms, you ought to be threatened with a harmful consequence. It may not change your conviction, but at least you have been forewarned.

If you are cautioned not to speak of God as truly a non-entity, no more to be feared than the Lochness Monster, and it turns out there **is **a God … you will have considerably more to lose than you could ever lose from the Monster.

You cannot separate truth from everything else like it existed as an independent entity. The Truth will not hurt you. It will set you free. A lie will hurt you … could destroy you, and the lie that there is no God will hurt most of all.

Are you willing to take that chance?

 

[MegaTherion]

If you are cautioned not to speak of God as truly a non-entity, no more to be feared than the Lochness Monster, and it turns out there **is **a God … you will have considerably more to lose than you could ever lose from the Monster.

…]

Are you willing to take that chance?

If you are cautioned not to speak of the Zoroastrian God as truly a non-entity, no more to be feared than the Lochness Monster, and it turns out there is a Zoroastrian God…you will have considerably more to lose than you could ever lose from the Monster.

Are you willing to take that chance?

---

In all seriousness, you can clearly see that the argument I’ve made is not a good reason to believe in the Zoroastrian God.

Pascal’s Wager is, I’m sorry to say, a dumb idea. In the first place, it ignores all other religions. How can you ever be sure you’ve picked the right god? You’d have to worship them all just to be sure.

But in the second place, it assumes that you can just choose to believe something. You can’t. “Belief” isn’t an act of will – it’s a term we use for “being convinced of a proposition.”

No matter how hard I try, I can’t will myself to believe in the Lochness Monster – because I haven’t been convinced of its existence (because there is no evidence). Ditto with all gods ever worshipped by man.

 

[Dameedna]

No matter how hard I try, I can’t will myself to believe in the Lochness Monster – because I haven’t been convinced of its existence (because there is no evidence). Ditto with all gods ever worshipped by man.

Exactly, athiesm isn’t a “choice” you make. Whenever I hear an individual saying “I almost chose athiesm” I know that they have never even come close to the mindset of the athiest.

An athiest couldn’t “convince” themselves there was a God, anymore than they could convince themselves there is a lochness monster, a flying spaghetti monster, Santa…or a christ.

It’s what happens to you, when you put the idea of truth above EVERYTHING ELSE, your fear of hell, your fear of nilhilism and even your own dreams of an eternal life. Truth, is more important than your life. When you do that…

…You become an athiest(or at least agnostic and extremely skeptical of anything ever claimed as truth again)

Athiests don’t usually go back to being institutionalized christians(or any other religion). Most believers that have had periods of doubt, haven’t really come close to the mindset. Very rarely do you find an actual athiest, that becomes a believer and it’s usually a very long and slow process for the individual. It’s unusual for this to happen.

I’ll follow that up by saying two things. It doesn’t mean the athiest has “THE truth”. I’m talking about the process that they go through. And, not every non-believer, is one I would call an athiest. In fact I think athiests are more rare than the world would have you believe.It is difficult to see the distinction most of the time however.

 

[Dameedna]

Regardless of one’s personal beliefs about Jesus, most of us recognize that we are not and never will be a world-famous religious leader who forged his reputation on the performance of miracles and strong self-assertions. Most of us are probably more like Pilate, not nearly able to articulate our own personal views, let alone the ultimate truths of the universe.

Jesus never forged his repuation on miracles. These were later additions to the story of his life. The man Jesus never performed a single act that defied the laws of nature and physics according to a large number of scholars. Yes you can go google it. I’ll even give you some direction if you’d like, but you would really have to do your research and it may upset you.

He did however, completely and utterly challenge the community he was in. He was such a threat for what he was sharing. He threatened the rulers, the religious establisment, the wealthy, the power mungers…he showed humans how they could live and what they were worth. He took away their fears. You can’t be controlled, when you no longer fear. And for his extrodinary acts of bravery, he was put to death.

There is no doubt in my mind, and the mind of many a theologian and historian, through the study of the texts that the miracles, virgin birth story and the ressurection were fabrications. Not real events, but the use of ancient human language to try and describe what they experienced in this man they knew. People who start with a belief, then go looking for the evidence of that belief within the bible, will never find truth.

Jesus was obviously very impressive and changed the face of the world as we know it. No respected historian really denies this(lots of books are written however, to make money for the author to try and prove his non-existance)

You ask if we can accept we are a Pilate? Do you understand, for even a moment what athiests have given up for the truth? Can you honestly say you are willing to give up any dreams of living forever, being loved forever and believing you have a meaningful(sacred) life for the sake of saying you are no longer be a Pilate?

Yes we could be wrong. But I think the athiest is willing to sacrifice a lot more so they can gain the truth of the matter, than the believer realizes and give them credit for. Athiesm, is also rather threatening. What if we are right? How…does a human being deal with this?

For most I would say don’t deal with it. Continue to believe. For those that are already riddled with doubt, go start searching for athiest blogs, and websites. They can help you.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Jesus never forged his repuation on miracles. These were later additions to the story of his life. The man Jesus never performed a single act that defied the laws of nature and physics according to a large number of scholars.

How in the hell would you know that!!? Seems to me this is an unfounded certainty based on a belief that nothing transcends the laws and nature of physics. It is certainly not science! Please get your facts straight; and if you have any respect for knowledge then please put the words “i believe” in front of your baseless assertions in future.

 

[MindOverMatter]

But I think the athiest is willing to sacrifice a lot more so they can gain the truth of the matter, than the believer realizes and give them credit for. Athiesm, is also rather threatening. What if we are right? How…does a human being deal with this?

The sacrifice has nothing to do with truth. That is a triumphant and popular myth, synonymous to a non-intellectual snobbery of the most repugnant kind. Many have bought in to the lie and many have convinced themselves of the lie. Atheism or naturalism, first and foremost, is to do with fulfilling some desire that cannot be fulfilled if God exists. It is a belief that fulfills the ego of human mastery. It is a belief that fulfills the many lusts of the human animal, and for this they are willing to risk the possibility of hell and trade in immortality, for the kingdom of human passions. Worshiping the image of man and lowering are selves to the value of beasts. It is merely a belief, and at most an unprovable hypothesis. Which means its not a science. It is a philosophy and a principle born out of a desire, not just to be free from superstition, but to be free from all and any God; real or not. It is the highest and most arrogant prejudiced that places man in the seat of God. I am not fooled by it.

It is nothing like the intellectual position you make it out to be.

 

[Dameedna]

How in the hell would you know that!!? Seems to me this is an unfounded certainty based on a belief that nothing transcends the laws and nature of physics. It is certainly not science! Please get your facts straight; and if you have any respect for knowledge then please put the words “i believe” in front of your baseless assertions in future.

I’m sorry if it upsets, you but you can read about it. The majority of historians and theologians, even some within your church no longer believe it. The catholic church does not allow teaching that contradicts it’s doctrine. That in no way shape or form means that all theologians within your church agree with your teachings. Only that if they are to remain in the church, they must not teach them officially.

They are simply not allowed to teach it. It would disturb you. Good thing, some other christian teachers, are not so afraid and give the rest of us, some semblance of truth.

 

[MindOverMatter]

I’m sorry if it upsets, you but you can read about it. The majority of historians and theologians, even some within your church no longer believe it.

Your logic is flawed. It is logically impossible to know that Jesus did not perform miracles. You said, with a sense of certainty in your writing, that because most people don’t believe that Jesus did miracles that therefore he didn’t perform them. But just because somebody does not believe something is not reason to disbelieve. The motivation for rejecting the miracles of Jesus, are rooted in naturalistic prejudiced and the desire of some to be contemporary because they fear ridicule of their faith and desire to fit in with the world. Nothing more. And if there is something more, then the intellectual honest thing to do, would be to show some kind of proof. Which you did not. Apologize to yourself, because it is you that loses out with weak arguments like the one you just produced.
You along with the rest of those who doubt, have given nothing more then a circler argument in favor of a naturalistic world-veiw.

 

[Dameedna]

The sacrifice has nothing to do with truth. That is a triumphant and popular myth, synonymous to a non-intellectual snobbery of the most repugnant kind. Many have bought in to the lie and many have convinced themselves of the lie. Atheism or naturalism, first and foremost, is to do with fulfilling some desire that cannot be fulfilled if God exists. It is a belief that fulfills the ego of human mastery.

Athiests do not reject God my friend. They do not reject an eternal life, because they want to spend 80 years having sex, at the cost of eternal hellfire. Even you, must realize that the athiest is not that stupid.

Your view does not fit with the concept of Ego. The Ego is the part of the human nature, which wants to surive. It is our identity. It fights and kills for the sake of itself. Hence, the Ego does anything it CAN do, to survive.

An individual accepting their death has let go of their ego. Their own identity. The are completely and utterly willing to lose themselves.

The athiest may not be correct about God, but since they are willing to accept their death with no ego ecompassing belief they will live forever they have gone through the beginning stages, of transcending their own nature. Their own fear of death. They are ridding themselves of ego and individual identity. Truth, love…the ground of being. That is all that matters.

When you can do that, get rid of even your own desire for life, then…you can search for truth. There is nothing that will hurt you more, than the recognition of your mortality. Nothing…at all.

It is utter…humility.

And that my friend…is the true athiest.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Athiests do not reject God my friend. They do not reject an eternal life, because they want to spend 80 years having sex, at the cost of eternal hellfire. Even you, must realize that the athiest is not that stupid.

I do not believe that atheism is a rational position. Since they deny and refuse to have faith in the glory of God, in order to fulfill their own glory at the expense of an objective purpose, moral value, and meaning to their existence.

Your view does not fit with the concept of Ego.

My view does not fit with your concept and interpretation of ego.

The athiest may not be correct about God, but since they are willing to accept their death with no ego encompassing belief they will live forever they have gone through the beginning stages, of transcending their own nature. Their own fear of death. They are ridding themselves of ego and individual identity. Truth, love…the ground of being. That is all that matters.

A subjective myth that you and others would like to believe in, because it makes you and others feel comfortable with being atheist. Like i said, they deny the existence of God for their own glory. Thats more in line with arrogance and a desire to be God; not humility.

When you can do that, get rid of even your own desire for life, then…you can search for truth. There is nothing that will hurt you more, than the recognition of your mortality. Nothing…at all.

To rid yourself of objective moral truth, values and purpose for some kind of human glory that you have invented or bought in to does not bring you closer to any truth that will serve a positive end. It may provide an opportunity for self-gratification, but at the expense of everything that makes life worth living. In other words, the truth you speak of is a doctrine that teaches people how to be their own God. I’m not interested in superman philosophy. I’m interested in a life worth living. A life worth bringing children into.

It is utter…humility.

It is utter folly. Thats what it is!

 

[Nepenthe]

Well, more like it is one of the better sorts of the manifold varieties of atheists/nontheists. And I very often do see areligious people striving very hard and sacrificing wishful thinking and self-aggrandizement among many other things in their pursuit of greater knowledge and understanding, and yes, wisdom.

But, neither MOM nor Dameedna (although I often agree with her, I’m skeptical here about the ‘THIS is how TRUE atheists are’ bit) should be so pat about presumptions about how those individuals think and see the world. As I have often said before, drawing such generalities is an exercise in cat-herding.

 

[Dameedna]

This is not rational or well reasoned Mindovermatter. Your response is emotive.

A person who accepts that when they die they will no longer exist, is not doing it for their own glory. Since humans are a fleeting concept on planet earth how could Glory really exist?

You are using a circular argument. We glorify ourselves, some-how by accepting our absolute deaths. hmmm…

Awareness of death is horrifying. It is not what the human wishes. It does not glorify life at all. It negates it completely.

To rid yourself of objective moral truth, values and purpose for some kind of human glory that you have invented or bought in to does not bring you closer to any truth that will serve a positive end. It may provide an opportunity for self-gratification, but at the expense of everything that makes life worth living. In other words, the truth you speak of is a doctrine that teaches people how to be their own God.

No, they are not trying to be God nor do they accept their death out of some kind of perverse sense of glory.

You cannot possibly believe a person will accept their mortality for the sake of some kind of meaningless glory. Are you thinking that we “sacrifice” ourselves for the greater good that we wish to believe in?

No my friend. There IS no greater good that we have the truth of.

And yet, we sacrfice anyway. The greater “good” is not us.

This IS upsetting, to many who place a great deal of value on their own ego and existance.

It is utter folly. Thats what it is!

No, it is utter humility and submission. It is the complete loss of self.

It is an acceptance of death and loss of life for the sake of humans understandings of truth, and an acceptance of love, that negates all the hate that religions try and teach us in the name of an eternal promise.

Cheers

 

[Dameedna]

Well, more like it is one of the better sorts of the manifold varieties of atheists/nontheists. And I very often do see areligious people striving very hard and sacrificing wishful thinking and self-aggrandizement among many other things in their pursuit of greater knowledge and understanding, and yes, wisdom.

This is an interesting observation. I’m glad you have noticed it. I think there are different kinds of non-believers. Not all of us live our lives, because we just want to please ourselves.

We can explain this desire to love another through our biology if we want, but we do give in to it regardless of where it comes from. And there is no real reward at the end. Just the reward given throughout life by being as kind as we can be.

It has it’s own reward.

But, neither MOM nor Dameedna (although I often agree with her, I’m skeptical here about the ‘THIS is how TRUE atheists are’ bit) should be so pat about presumptions about how those individuals think and see the world. As I have often said before, drawing such generalities is an exercise in cat-herding.

Yeah, the true athiest bit is a “bit” tricky. It is a generalization, but more so about non-believers. Since non-belief is relatively new to the human language, it isn’t very well defined, and of course I DO make generalizations.

But there is a very real difference, between the individual who say’s "I don’t care if God exists, and this suits my purposes, “…and the individual who says " The god concept, is rather nice but since I can only support what is true(no matter what it costs me) and God cannot be verfied I’ll accept my very annoying death”.

Pretty big difference

When you explore the world…see if you can find them. See if you can find the athiest. As long as you don’t discuss religion, you will probably like them very much.

 

[Nepenthe]

Dameedna, I am a nontheist myself! Many here would categorize me as an atheist, but that isn’t, as I have pointed out, a very precise term. Since I fall at about the weak-atheist/strong-agnostic position (for those who don’t know, those are slightly technical terms and not very related to the way they may sound to the religious or uninformed), I usually use the term ‘nontheist’, but don’t mind being called either agnostic or atheist by people who understand the meanings of the words. And yes, I am also of the sort that refuses to succumb to notionalism to the utmost of my ability, and have paid quite a price at times - but a price I feel privileged to pay.

I don’t find the various notions about the supernatural especially interesting - although not entirely devoid of interest- but not because it merely suits my purposes. Rather, I find them lacking in discipline very often, and that very few people have much that is meaningful to say about them - and there are so very many things that we can (and should!) verify/falsify and ideals that we can accomplish without the presumption of the supernatural that my focus is more on such matters.

Yes, it can be a hard row to hoe, but it can be a deeply satisfying and peaceable one too.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

MegaTherion
*
No matter how hard I try, I can’t will myself to believe in the Lochness Monster – because I haven’t been convinced of its existence (because there is no evidence). Ditto with all gods ever worshipped by man.*

So you are absolutely convinced there is no God?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Dameedna

Yes we could be wrong. Post # 46

Atheists could be wrong? Wow! That a fascinating admission.

And if you are wrong, what then?

 

[Nepenthe]

Of course atheists, at least most of them, have little problem with saying they may be wrong! We constantly revise, add new information and redact as evidence and experience come in! It takes a LOT of work - and yes, sometimes humility - though, to be comfortable with one’s own fallibility and the fallibility of those we most admire.

And if we’re wrong, well, same as theists of all varieties, we’ll find out when we get there. Don’t even try it with Pascal’s Wager! That’s a sucker’s game.