I Was A Jehovah's Witness from age 28-44. I'm now 55

[JohnOneOne]

I think they’re talking about the title “the Trinity”. The title did not always exist, but the concept did. This is NOT a debated area in Church history… Catholics know this is what the Church has always taught. I just provided you with many quotes… would you say they are fabricated? because to be honest, they’re hard to ignore. Whenever the early Church Fathers agree on something…that means that’s what was taught at the time.

Actually, to put the phrase, “…the title the Trinitarian dogma” - that is, as taken from the New Catholic Encyclopedia - into proper, fuller perspective, the sentences leading up to this says:

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Taken from: Richard, R. L. (b.?-d.?). Article on “Trinity, Holy” appearing within: The New Catholic Encyclopedia. Prepared by an Editorial Staff at the Catholic University of America, Washington, D. C. (New York, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1967-c1989), vol. XIV [14], p. 299. BX841 .N44 1967 / 66-022292.

Therefore, what was being spoken about was not “the title,” but the whole of its “formulation [of] ‘one God in three Persons.’”

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books

 

[Monica4316]

Also, there’s the concept of Jesus being begotten, not created. If He’s not God, then He is only created. (like us) then He is not eternal, and that makes me wonder what role He has in our salvation. However if Jesus is God, then this makes sense, and it’s also clear how He could redeem us, being both God and Man

 

[Monica4316]

Actually, to put the phrase, “…the title the Trinitarian dogma” - that is, as taken from the New Catholic Encyclopedia - into proper, fuller perspective, the sentences leading up to this says:

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Taken from: Richard, R. L. (b.?-d.?). Article on “Trinity, Holy” appearing within: The New Catholic Encyclopedia. Prepared by an Editorial Staff at the Catholic University of America, Washington, D. C. (New York, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1967-c1989), vol. XIV [14], p. 299. BX841 .N44 1967 / 66-022292.

Therefore, what was being spoken about was not “the title,” but the whole of its “formulation [of] ‘one God in three Persons.’”

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books

I hope you realize that doesn’t mean it’s not true. It could be that the Apostles and the early Church Fathers spoke about Jesus being God (as I provided, in the quotes) but the concept wasn’t “integrated into Christian life” because it wasn’t yet formally declared. It became formally declared once there was opposition to it (the Arian heresy.)

when the author says “Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective”, I dont believe that cause there are quotes from the 2nd century, which I just provided.

again, historical authors are not infallible. The reason I found these quotes is because they’re in Catholic Answers, lol, but it must have taken a long time to find them for whoever wrote the article on the website.

 

[Monica4316]

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him (Jesus), because He not only had broken the Sabbath {customs, as they understood them}, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.

And as Thomas said: “My Lord and my God!”

here’s a good article:
allaboutjesuschrist.org/jesus-is-god.htm

 

[JohnOneOne]

well John, let me ask you…what is your evidence that Christ is not God? this is something that has not been historically believed by Christians… it’s a fairly new concept, taught mostly by the JWs… many of the Biblical explanations for it seem a little far- fetched to me. To be honest, for me it’s much easier just believing that Christ is God. What is preventing you from believing this? I’ve never found a convincing argument against the idea. (and even if I did, I’d still believe that Jesus is God, because this is the core of my faith.) Just a sincere question

God bless

Dear Monica,

Thank you for your kind, thoughtful and respectful remarks, they are much appreciated.

As to your question regarding why I don’t believe that Jesus is God, I will say this:

The principle reason why I cannot believe that Jesus is God is because he never made such a claim.

The second reason why I cannot believe that Jesus is God is because of the basis of the Ransom his death provided, because of the the things he proved by way of his own love, devotion and obedience to his own God and Father.

For what it’s worth, in my view, all of which would have been quite nullified if Jesus were, indeed, God - for, Jesus would have said so, and the value of his obedient course of life to his own heavenly God and Father would have been insignificant.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books

 

[Monica4316]

I’m pretty sure that He did make such a claim, and we can see this in Scripture

for example…

Jews only believed God can forgive sin. Jesus said He can forgive sin.

He called Himself “I AM” (this is what God called Himself in the OT)

John, Thomas, Paul, all mentioned His divinity (I provided quotes)

the Pharisees etc became angry because Jesus was making Himself one with the Father… and claiming equality with HIm… they killed Him because they thought it was blasphemy. They thought He was calling Himself God… which shows that He made this claim

Isaiah prophesies:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a** Son is given**: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus also said that all authority has been given to Him on earth and in Heaven, that He is life, that He is the way, etc.

A man who claimed all these things would be a liar or a crazy person.

Jesus doesn’t seem like a liar or a lunatic… so who is He? it means He was telling the truth…

 

[Monica4316]

have you ever asked Jesus to show you the truth about this? I mean really asked and was open to Him.

I used to be an agnostic and didn’t know if Jesus is God, but then I read CS Lewis “Mere Christianity” and suddenly it all made sense. I haven’t doubted it since.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

Also there are private revelations.

Like in St Faustina’s “Divine Mercy in My Soul” book, Jesus appears to her many times… and one time, I remember He was telling her that He created the world, etc. He calls her “My daughter” and said He called her into being.

 

[JohnOneOne]

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You might want to check how this reads in most any currently produced Bible, especially take note of a different term being used instead of “God.”

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Although Jehovah too is also called “Mighty God,” only he is referred to as “Almighty God.”

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.

Again, you might want to examine how this reads in most any Bible, and especially take note of any footnotes which might be offered within them as well.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him (Jesus), because He not only had broken the Sabbath {customs, as they understood them}, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Notice, it was the Jews who concluded by Jesus’ words that he was claiming to be equal with God. Whereas, in Jesus’ reply, he made clear this was, certainly, not the case; otherwise, he could have just as easily said, ‘You’re right.’ -

(John 5:19-23) ...Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that you may marvel. 21For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

With this and other clear statements throughout Jesus’ discourses with the Jews, Jesus explains that all of what he is and does derives solely from his Father and God.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.

Perhaps, the key word here is “given.” Whereas, if Jesus were, indeed, God, he would have been in no need of being “given” anything, especially “power.”

And as Thomas said: “My Lord and my God!”

Little known to some, among other things, there are many commentaries which explain this as an exclamation of praise and honor to both Jesus and God.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books.

 

[JohnOneOne]

I’m pretty sure that He did make such a claim, and we can see this in Scripture

for example…

Jews only believed God can forgive sin. Jesus said He can forgive sin.

He called Himself “I AM” (this is what God called Himself in the OT)

John, Thomas, Paul, all mentioned His divinity (I provided quotes)

the Pharisees etc became angry because Jesus was making Himself one with the Father… and claiming equality with HIm… they killed Him because they thought it was blasphemy. They thought He was calling Himself God… which shows that He made this claim

Isaiah prophesies:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a** Son is given**: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus also said that all authority has been given to Him on earth and in Heaven, that He is life, that He is the way, etc.

A man who claimed all these things would be a liar or a crazy person.

Jesus doesn’t seem like a liar or a lunatic… so who is He? it means He was telling the truth…

Dear Monica,

Jesus was not a liar.

Each and every one of your points above can be quite effectively addressed, but, as you can see, when so many are provided in one posting, and especially when there are others offering their thoughts as well, its hard to address them all, especially when each deserves it own special attention.

On that note, please pick one scripture of which you would like to discuss, and we’ll take it from there.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books.

 

[Monica4316]

Although Jehovah too is also called “Mighty God,” only he is referred to as “Almighty God.”

I don’t think it matters, cause there’s only one God

Perhaps, the key word here is “given.” Whereas, if Jesus were, indeed, God, he would have been in no need of being “given” anything, especially “power.”

but if we understand the Trinity as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and if the Son is eternally begotten from the Father, then it makes sense.

Notice, it was the Jews who concluded by Jesus’ words that he was claiming to be equal with God. Whereas, in Jesus’ reply, he made clear this was, certainly, not the case; otherwise, he could have just as easily said, ‘You’re right.’ -

(John 5:19-23) ...Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that you may marvel. 21For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

through this, He was trying to show that His power is Divine and not from the devil. The Jews thought he is blaspheming. He tried to tell them that it can’t be blasphemy if He is with the Father. He was showing the relationship He has with the Father, that there is a relationship…

notice He then says "JUST as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son makes those alive whom He wants to. For the Father judges no one at all, but He has committed all the judging to the Son, IN ORDER THAT ALL MAY HONOUR THE SON JUST AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER. He that does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent Him."

through this last part, Jesus essentially claims that we should honour Him as we honour God… that we should give Him worship. If Jesus is merely a human…then this is indeed blasphemy! If anything, this shows that He’s God. In the previous verse, He talks about His dependence on the Father to show that His authority is real and true and doesn’t come from another source, but was given to Him by the Father Himself.

He also says that He has the authority to judge. Again, no human could ever be given this authority.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

John, I believe when we look at Scripture, we should simply look at what it is saying in the most direct way, and then go from there for example, we can look at the part where Jesus claims to forgive sin. The Jews believed only God can forgive sin. What would you say about this?

God bless.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

You might want to check how this reads in most any currently produced Bible, especially take note of a different term being used instead of “God.”

Although Jehovah too is also called “Mighty God,” only he is referred to as “Almighty God.”

Again, you might want to examine how this reads in most any Bible, and especially take note of any footnotes which might be offered within them as well.

Notice, it was the Jews who concluded by Jesus’ words that he was claiming to be equal with God. Whereas, in Jesus’ reply, he made clear this was, certainly, not the case; otherwise, he could have just as easily said, ‘You’re right.’ -

(John 5:19-23) ...Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that you may marvel. 21For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

With this and other clear statements throughout Jesus’ discourses with the Jews, Jesus explains that all of what he is and does derives solely from his Father and God.

Perhaps, the key word here is “given.” Whereas, if Jesus were, indeed, God, he would have been in no need of being “given” anything, especially “power.”

Little known to some, among other things, there are many commentaries which explain this as an exclamation of praise and honor to both Jesus and God.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books.

Hi John;

Monica & I are of the same name, but different Faiths. My Bible reads the same as hers for 1 John 5:7. The footnote speaks to the Blood, Water and Spirit from the following verse as it relates to the Mysteries of Eucharist, Baptism and Confirmation - the Christian initiation Sacraments.

Jesus as God can receive something from God because God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are different Persons (remember that humans were created in the Image of god in that they too are Persons). Persons (whether Divine or human) are free, unique and relational. So the fact that/Jesus was given something by God does not make Him any less God.

 

[JohnOneOne]

I hope you realize that doesn’t mean it’s not true. It could be that the Apostles and the early Church Fathers spoke about Jesus being God (as I provided, in the quotes) but the concept wasn’t “integrated into Christian life” because it wasn’t yet formally declared. It became formally declared once there was opposition to it (the Arian heresy.)

when the author says “Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective”, I dont believe that cause there are quotes from the 2nd century, which I just provided.

again, historical authors are not infallible. The reason I found these quotes is because they’re in Catholic Answers, lol, but it must have taken a long time to find them for whoever wrote the article on the website.

Dear Monica,

And yet, with such an admission as this, coming from the New Catholic Encyclopedia no less, isn’t that surprising in and of itself? I think so. Apparently, someone is missing something.

Just as a suggestion, I would like you to examine and consider some other evidences against the notion that any of the earliest of Christians could have ever entertained such a notion about the Christ, especially without any mention of it (as, in discussion, explanation and/or in defense of such a radically new concept about Jesus or God), either within the Bible itself or in the earliest of Christian writings:

Some Powerful Reasoning’s About the Trinity,
Not So Easily Dismissed

Granted, what you will find there are thoughts and opinions of men, on the other hand, as the title of that webpage says, these cannot be “So Easily Dismissed.”

Kalos Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books.

 

[Monica4316]

Hi John,

Okay, I will. I just have to go somewhere right now, so I’ll have to come back to this thread later it’s been an interesting discussion so far…

I’d have to say that my faith is all about a choice. I chose to believe that Jesus is God, and so I pray with God’s grace I’d never go back on that. Even if I were to discover evidence to the contrary, I don’t think I could. I wouldn’t want to. Because my life is about Jesus and I worship Him. If I lessened Him in any way, that would be turning away from Him, for me. Like when people were giving me evidence for atheism (I realize this is different) - it really made me doubt at first, but I still didn’t want to stop believing, because this is the point of my life. Although I’m not a Saint or anyone special like that, Jesus is a real Person to me, that I know.

If Jesus is not God, then I don’t know who God is, or what He is like. I only know the Father because I see Him perfectly reflected in the Son. And this is what Jesus Himself said… that if we see Him, we see the Father there’s simply no other way for us to know God. We’d never be able to understand anything about Him if He wasn’t Jesus.

Jesus is the invisible God made visible to us, so we can know Him

I’ll be back to this thread when I have some time, again

God bless

 

[JohnOneOne]

Hi John;

Monica & I are of the same name, but different Faiths. My Bible reads the same as hers for 1 John 5:7. The footnote speaks to the Blood, Water and Spirit from the following verse as it relates to the Mysteries of Eucharist, Baptism and Confirmation - the Christian initiation Sacraments.

Again, the next time you go to your Church or a local book store (Christian or not), I would suggest that you examine this verse within any of the other Bible’s there,making sure to examine any commentary or footnotes offered within.

Jesus as God can receive something from God because God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are different Persons (remember that humans were created in the Image of god in that they too are Persons). Persons (whether Divine or human) are free, unique and relational. So the fact that/Jesus was given something by God does not make Him any less God.

Good reasoning, but untrue. Although the Scriptures makes plain that Jesus received all things from his God and Father, never do we ever find that the Father receives any of such things from the Son or “Holy Spirit.”

Quite interestingly, whereas Jesus speaks of God as his God, nowhere can we find where the Father is ever spoken of as having a God (or any part of the “Trinity”) who is His God.

On the other hand, we read:

(John 20:17) - Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

(Revelation 1:1; 3:12) - A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, ..…“‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

Compare also:

(1 Corinthians 11:3) - But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

The Father, Almighty God, has no one as “head” over Him.

(1 Corinthians 15:27, 28) - For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

The Father, Almighty God, has no one who has “subjected” anything to Him.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books.

(Caps of YOU and YOUR within this Bible indicate a plural usage of these terms.)

 

[Monica4316]

Quite interestingly, whereas Jesus speaks of God as his God, nowhere can we find where the Father is ever spoken of as having a God (or any part of the “Trinity”) who is His God.

this is because Jesus has a human nature, while the Father does not

 

[kristine105]

in what religion do you feel God’s presence more?

 

[JohnOneOne]

Also, there’s the concept of Jesus being begotten, not created.

Interestingly, the difference made of between these two terms can usually only be found among those theologians who wish to make this an issue.

If He’s not God, then He is only created. (like us) then He is not eternal, and that makes me wonder what role He has in our salvation.

The role he plays in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose is quite simple.

(Romans 5:18-19) ...So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one many will be constituted righteous.

See the contrast being made here, between the disobedient act of one man (Adam), and how all of this was offset by the obedient act of another man (Jesus).

(Hebrews 5:8) ...Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;

(1 Timothy 2:5) ...For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

As for Jesus being eternal, this only came as a result of the display of his own willing faithfulness and sacrifice to his own God and Father. Because Jehovah was, indeed, pleased with the display of integrity of Jesus, the reward He grants His Son is simply:

(John 5:25-30) ...“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. 30*I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

However if Jesus is God, then this makes sense, and it’s also clear how He could redeem us, being both God and Man

Well, it may, indeed, make sense,…but, it is quite contrary to what the Bible, otherwise, plainly declares.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books

 

[JohnOneOne]

this is because Jesus has a human nature, while the Father does not

Whereas, I had said:

Quite interestingly, whereas Jesus speaks of God as his God, nowhere can we find where the Father is ever spoken of as having a God (or any part of the “Trinity”) who is His God.

To your reply above, actually, that is not true.

Again, within Revelation we read that this was "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him (Rev. 1:1), as we see further on, Jesus says, “‘The one that conquers—I [Jesus] will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

Again, whereas Jesus does, indeed, have a God who is over him, on the other hand, “nowhere can we find where the Father is ever spoken of as having a God (or any part of the “Trinity”) who is His God.”

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books.