I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[sandusky]

Believe it or not, I already knew that Adam was created in a state of innocence - which is to say, a state of grace.

I knew that; you were just playing me.

jmcrae:

What was startling was the idea that “innocence” is something different than “grace” in your mind.

Innocence and grace are two different words with two different meanings.

We become entirely innocent when Jesus washes our sins away in Baptism and in the Confessional; did you know that? That’s what the state of grace is.

Your statement is false. Even after baptism you still have a knowledge of evil.

That’s what Adam didn’t have in the state of innocence—a knowledge of evil—which is why Adam’s original state is called the “state of innocence.”

 

[jmcrae]

I knew that; you were just playing me.

Innocence and grace are two different words with two different meanings.

Your statement is false. Even after baptism you still have a knowledge of evil.

That’s what Adam didn’t have in the state of innocence—a knowledge of evil—which is why Adam’s original state is called the “state of innocence.”

Let me ask you this: if Adam had never sinned, would he have been “saved” by your definition? That is to say, would he have been in a right relationship with God for all of eternity after the end of his life on earth?

If so, then what material difference is there between the state of grace that believers and followers have today, and the state of innocence that he was in before he sinned?

 

[moondweller]

Let me ask you this: if Adam had never sinned, would he have been “saved” by your definition? That is to say, would he have been in a right relationship with God for all of eternity after the end of his life on earth?

Un-beee-leeevable

 

[Gamera]

Judith, I didn’t read the piece as I had only one point to make—the fact of Adam being created in a state of innocence has been around for more than a couple of years.

So you, Gamera, and anyone else who stumbles upon this thread that didn’t know that, have learned something.

You’re welcome. :tiphat:

No, sir. I did not “learn” anything. Of course Adam was created innocent. Nobody ever denied that Adam was created innocent. That’s why he was in a state of grace.

 

[jmcrae]

No, sir. I did not “learn” anything. Of course Adam was created innocent. Nobody ever denied that Adam was created innocent. That’s why he was in a state of grace.

Exactly.

 

[jmcrae]

Un-beee-leeevable

Just answer the question. If Adam hadn’t sinned, would he have been “saved” by your definition?

 

[De_Maria]

It just occured to me that I have never regreted my conversion. When I was saved, no one told me that I have to leave the Catholic religion, I simply believed that Jesus Christ paid for my sins with his blood and I called upon him to save me: just like the Philipian jailer in Acts 16:31. He asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” He did, and he was. To the saved believer, the thought of someone trying to administer God’s grace through some ritual is the highest form of idolatry there is. Jesus said, “it is finished”, not ‘it’s begun’.

Go back to Acts and read this verse:

*33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; *and was baptized, *he and all his, straightway. *

This ritual, Baptism, was established by Jesus Christ through which His graces are administered to those who believe:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth **and is baptized **shall be saved;…

I just hope that people will see that God’s grace is through faith in Christ and not in some man made rituals.

God’s grace is gained through faith in Christ and administered by the rituals which Jesus Christ ordained:

Baptism:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth **and is baptized **shall be saved;…

Confession:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Eucharist:
John 6:54
Whoso **eateth my **flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Confirmation:
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Anointing of the sick:
James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

In addition, justification is by works as St. James so brilliantly explained:

1. 
   *]James 2:21
   Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
   *]James 2:24
   Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
   *]James 2:25
   Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
   etc. etc.
   

   May the Lord truly bless every one who is seeking to know him in truth.

   Amen!
   
   Sincerely,
   
   De Maria

 

[Gamera]

Exactly.

I think our non-Catholic friends use some different definition of “grace,” and apparently, think we have our heads on backwards because we don’t use their definition. “Grace” means “friendship with God,” so of course Adam and Eve were in a state of grace — because of their innocence, not in spite of it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

As the point I’ve been making on this entire thread indicates, I have.

Your belief system contradicts scripture; How can you have assurance, or guarantee of salvation? when tommorrow is promised to no one, and Paul states to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. Boy I hope any one else reading your threads see your true colors, and not fall for any false lies of salvation.

Peace

Ps. how do the mental handicap get saved, and the deaf and mute along with infants, or are these lost souls not included in your ideology of salvation?

 

[sandusky]

Church (singular) is what Jesus established. So again, which one of the 33,000 denominations out there is vyiing for the title. And once you’ve zeroed in on one. Can you illustrate how you can trace it back to Jesus saying “Thou art Peter…”.

33,000!!!

I didn’t know there were that many.

If you would please, send me the names and telephone numbers of all 33,000, and I’ll call them and see which ones adhere to SS.

 

[sandusky]

how do the mental handicap get saved, and the deaf and mute along with infants, or are these lost souls not included in your ideology of salvation?

I’ve already answered this for you.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I’ve already answered this for you.

If you did, you did it very quietly? If you believe by Grace, then how is Grace attained by the infants, deaf and mute, mentally handicapped? This you have not answered.

 

[sandusky]

This will have to be the saddest post I have ever read. What an awful image of God you have. Certainly not the God of love that Jesus so wants us to believe in.

If that’s the truth, then I say with whole-hearted that for you, the worst is yet to come.

 

[sandusky]

If you did, you did it very quietly? If you believe by Grace, then how is Grace attained by the infants, deaf and mute, mentally handicapped? This you have not answered.

It seems to me you have a point you want to make; if so, then make it; if not, then accept my answer—by grace alone.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It seems to me you have a point you want to make; if so, then make it; if not, then accept my answer—by grace alone.

The point is how does Grace alone affect or if transmitted to an infant, mentally ill, deaf mute individual. Grace alone, are two words that have no action, it’s like saying God saves, yeah but how? Can you describe how these lost souls are given or shown Grace from your Christian tradition?

 

[guanophore]

The meaning of grace is that it’s undeserved favor. That favor begins with God giving it to a rebellious sinner who is not good enough to earn it; God doesn’t stop giving grace when the redeemed stumble.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

The corollary to not being good enough to earn grace, is that you’ll never be bad enough to lose grace. As the psalmist says, “If you, Lord, judge us by our iniquities, who could stand?” That’s a rhetorical question, the expected answer to that question is “no one,” not even the redeemed.

This is an inaccurate corrollary. As has been said to you, just because a bullet can kill, that does not mean the bullet can cause life. Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin does not change because we come to Christ. Sin still separates, because when we sin, we are not in a state of grace.

I agree with you that sin does not make grace disappear:

Isa 65:2-3
2 I held out my hands all day long
to a rebellious people,
who walk in a way that is not good,
following their own devices;
3 a people who provoke me
to my face continually,

God continues to hold out his love and grace to us, even when we are in a state of sin. However, unless we turn to Him, repent, and accept that grace, as Jesus said “unless you believe, you will die in your sins”.

That’s why grace is grace; if you can lose your salvation, that’s not grace.

This is not the case. Grace does not change, just because we are not walking in it. When we are not in a state of grace, we are separated from God by sin. If we are not walking by faith, then we are in sin. By grace we are saved through faith, and therefore, when we do not walk by faith(live in sin) we cannot access saving grace.

So you’ll be in heaven, and will never permanently walk away from Christ?

Yes. Once we have completed the final perseverance, we are kept undefiled and cannot sin anymore.

I disagree; you can lose your salvation by your bad works, sinning, etc; that’s not grace.

What causes the loss of right relationship with God is lack of faith. A person cannot be saved without faith, as faith is the means by which we access saving grace. When we sin, we are not walking by faith.

A person who breaks a commandment, if they wish to walk in faith, can be reconciled to God, and turn again to receive His grace. One who persists walking in darkness cannot access the grace by which we are saved.

So accidental sin is OK with God?

Falling short of perfection and making mistakes are human conditions that are on a different level. In order for a sin to be mortal, one must meet the criteria, one of them being that it is intentional.

Mortal sin has only to do with walking away?

The Apostle writes that mortal sin is deadly. This type of sin involves grave matter.

That’s amusing; when you need grace most, at the time of sinning, that’s when you God takes it away from you; how bizzare.

I think this is a misconception. God never stops holding out His love and grace to us. Any moment we are ready to repent and receive His grace His mercy is there. The spurning of God’s grace and refusal to live by faith is a freedom that God has given to man.

That’s not what I’m asking; I believe you said you’ve seen the light; if you think you can lose your salvation, IMO, you haven’t seen the light.

It seems like you believe that the nature of sin, and it’s ability to separate us from God, somehow changes after one prays the prayer of faith.

 

[fbl9]

How do you square Mt 12:37 with Jn 5:24:John 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

St.John 5:23"that all men may honor the Son even as they honor the Father.He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him"St.12:37…"by your words thou wilt be condemned"St.John 5:24"“Amen amen,I say to you who hears my word and believesSt.Matthew 12:37by your words thou wilt be justifiedSt.John5:24 continued…”

 

[fbl9]

why do you ingore Jesus’s words from St.Matthew 12:37For by thy words thou wilt be justified and by thy words thou wilt be condemned…is it because they rebuke your belief that salvation can not be lost?..as to the “true” believer what would happen say if he/she were to die before choosing to repent?interestly Romans 8;23-25 seems to say that you cannot have assurance of salvation…

and what about the rest? may i ask.

 

[sandusky]

The point is how does Grace alone affect or if transmitted to an infant, mentally ill, deaf mute individual. Grace alone, are two words that have no action, it’s like saying God saves, yeah but how? Can you describe how these lost souls are given or shown Grace from your Christian tradition?

The action of grace in salvation is active on God’s part, and passive on man’s.

You’re confusion is that you view grace as “substance.”

As far as infants, when they die God brings them to heaven.

Define “mentally ill.”

A deaf mute has the ability to understand the Gospel.

For the past nine years, one of the ministries my wife and I have been involved in, is ministering to folks with a wide range of physical and mental impairment, and these range in age from pre-teens to old age.

As commanded by the Lord, the Gospel is taught to each of them.

 

[sandusky]

St.John 5:23"that all men may honor the Son even as they honor the Father.He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him"St.12:37…"by your words thou wilt be condemned"St.John 5:24"“Amen amen,I say to you who hears my word and believesSt.Matthew 12:37by your words thou wilt be justifiedSt.John5:24 continued…”

If that’s an answer, forgive me; I don’t understand it.