I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[sandusky]

and what about the rest? may i ask.

I have an idea of why you think Rom 8:23ff doesn’t line up with what I’m saying, and it probably has to do with hope; however, rather than making me guess what point you’re driving at, will you explain why you think that passage is against me?

 

[De_Maria]

The action of grace in salvation is active on God’s part, and passive on man’s.

Yet God says:
Romans 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

And also:**
James 2:24** Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So, it seems God wants us to be active.

You’re confusion is that you view grace as “substance.”

Show us where we say that.

As far as infants, when they die God brings them to heaven.

No doubt.

Define “mentally ill.”

A deaf mute has the ability to understand the Gospel.

Not all.

For the past nine years, one of the ministries my wife and I have been involved in, is ministering to folks with a wide range of physical and mental impairment, and these range in age from pre-teens to old age.

So the grace of God is flowing through your works.

As commanded by the Lord, the Gospel is taught to each of them.

Again, the grace of God is flowing through your works.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[benedictus2]

33,000!!!

I didn’t know there were that many.

If you would please, send me the names and telephone numbers of all 33,000, and I’ll call them and see which ones adhere to SS.

I’ll get to it. Will try to get the info by next post.

But please don’t evade the question. Say narrow it down to a few: yours, the various shades of the anglican communion, presbyterian, methodist, lutheran, ana baptists, the various shades of evangelicals.

Pick it from that list (extend the list if you like), then answer my question.

Because Christ did establish only ONE Church so it would be good to know which one it is.

I find it interesting that you have not just gone outright and said the Calvinists (considering you are one). Aah yes, your is probably just another branch of Calvinism.

And if it is not the one you’re in, hadn’t you better get moving and join the real deal.

If it is the one you belong to, kindly do a timeline tracing it back to that time in Ceasaria Philippi when a certain man called Simon became Peter.

 

[sandusky]

But please don’t evade the question. Say narrow it down to a few: yours, the various shades of the anglican communion, presbyterian, methodist, lutheran, ana baptists, the various shades of evangelicals.

I’m not evading anything, for the third time, those who adhere to SS.

 

[sandusky]

De Maria:

Yet God says:
Romans 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

And also:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So, it seems God wants us to be active.

These two passage deal with faith, and the lack of it—faith is active.
De Maria:

Show us where we say that.

Maybe you don’t believe that grace is “substance.”

However, guanophore and Catholic Dude, and others do as we’ve had this discussion; however, it revolves around justification and the ”infusion of grace and righteousness.”There is, indeed, in the first instance, a vast difference in the respective positions of God and man; but by the infusion of grace man receives a patent of nobility, and thus a friendship of excellency (amicitia excellentiae) is established between God and the just. (See Schiffini, “De gratia divina”, 305 sqq., Freiburg, 1901.)
De Maria:

Not all.

I agree; that’s because it’s the Spirit who convicts, De Maria, and He doesn’t convict everyone.
De Maria:

So the grace of God is flowing through your works.
Again, the grace of God is flowing through your works.

God’s grace works through me, and it works through the rankest pagan engaged in humanitarian work as well. Grace is not a substance, but an attitude of God toward the sinner in which He providentially influences the circumstances of everyone, even the pagan, and even through the pagan; God doesn’t work through those in Christ only.
De Maria:

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Point?
De Maria:

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Point?

 

[guanophore]

”Stumble” and “shipwreck” are biblical terms, and “shipwreck” is what the Pope said concerning those who would dare to speak against the IC; don’t you know that?

Yes, but he was referring to Catholics. If those who have embraced the Apostolic faith that has been passed down to us through the Succession turn and reject that faith, they have suffered a shipwreck. One has to be on the ship, in the faith, in order to have it wrecked.

Those of you who, through no fault of your own, were separated from the Apostolc Teachings and never embraced them out of ignorance are not on the ship.

I’m not telling you what you believe; what I’m telling you is that if one can lose salvation by bad works, or sin, that’s not salvation by grace, but works, in spite of what you believe.

It seems as though you believe that, since bullets can kill, bullets can give life as well.

That’s not what Paul said—he hoped he wouldn’t be disqualified—that’s not what he said.

1 Cor 9:27
I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

And why, do you suppose, did the Apostle speak of the possibility of being disqualified? This is in the context of controlling the desires of the flesh, which are one of the main occasions of sins. Sin separates us, and the possibility exists that we will not finish the race, an that we may be disqualified, or as he also says “run in vain”.

Only “good people” are saved?

Yes. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, so only those who have been made truly good by the power of God can be saved. This is why we find the “snow covered dunghill” against the Apostolic Teaching.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve only preach to non Christians. I edify Christians…I’m not here to edify you.

vichlopet, a word to the wise. CAF is not here as a venue for you to preach your anti-Catholic rhetoric. CAF is here to answer sincere questions from sincere inquirers about Catholicism.

I can appreciate that you are not here to edify us, as you posts have demonstrated this without fail. However, if you wish to continue posting on the forum, you may want to consider reading and following the rules of the forum.

 

[benedictus2]

I’m not evading anything, for the third time, those who adhere to SS.

And for the third time, Christ established only ONE (UNO) 1, Church so THOSE is not an answer.

Whice of THOSE?
Or is it that in your dictionary THOSE mean 1.

And don’t forget the timeline.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Yes, but he was referring to Catholics. If those who have embraced the Apostolic faith that has been passed down to us through the Succession turn and reject that faith, they have suffered a shipwreck. One has to be on the ship, in the faith, in order to have it wrecked.

Those of you who, through no fault of your own, were separated from the Apostolc Teachings and never embraced them out of ignorance are not on the ship.

Forgive me; I thought the Pope claimed to be the leader of Christianity, but, it seems, I was wrong, and he’s only the leader of the CC.

guanophore:

It seems as though you believe that, since bullets can kill, bullets can give life as well.

I believe I said that analogy is flawed, and that’s very Catholic

guanophore:

1 Cor 9:27
I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

And why, do you suppose, did the Apostle speak of the possibility of being disqualified? This is in the context of controlling the desires of the flesh, which are one of the main occasions of sins. Sin separates us, and the possibility exists that we will not finish the race, an that we may be disqualified, or as he also says “run in vain”.

Right. Paul was unsure of his salvation. How do you square that with greater number of positive statements he makes concerning his final disposition, and the locale of his citizenship—heaven?

guanophore:

Yes. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, so only those who have been made truly good by the power of God can be saved. This is why we find the “snow covered dunghill” against the Apostolic Teaching.

Those who are Christ’s are already clean (Jn 13:10; Eph 5:26).

 

[sandusky]

And for the third time, Christ established only ONE (UNO) 1, Church so THOSE is not an answer.

Whice of THOSE?
Or is it that in your dictionary THOSE mean 1.

And don’t forget the timeline.

It’s any of them that teach the true Gospel. They all make up the one body of Christ that is His church. :ehh:

 

[savedsinner]

33,000!!!

I didn’t know there were that many.

If you would please, send me the names and telephone numbers of all 33,000, and I’ll call them and see which ones adhere to SS.

Well, here is a link to 488 of them just in the L.A. area. And this was just from the search of “Church - Christian” from the yellow pages.

Good luck in calling all of them.

 

[sandusky]

Well, here is a link to 488 of them just in the L.A. area. And this was just from the search of “Church - Christian” from the yellow pages.

Good luck in calling all of them.

That’s not even worth my time—it’s all, or nothing. :coffeeread:

 

[Zooey]

This is not a convincing view. If God forgave David, which is an act of grace, then clearly David was under grace. Paul makes clear in Romans 4 that the only way anyone has ever been saved is by grace through faith.

Your dispensationalism is a modern heresy that hacks Scripture to pieces under the pretense of “rightly dividing” it. You will not be able to assume it here. Most of the folks you are talking to do not believe in it. So unless you can convince us to accept the dispensationalist framework in very short order, you will have to make arguments that do not assume that framework.

Edwin

Having been a dispensationalist, in my youth, I can certainly agree with this.
I am very grateful to God for showing the errors in my thinking. I could easily have drifted away from any sort of Christian faith at all, if I had continued to remain in that utterly confused state.

Have you ever considered that it is possible for a person to go through the process of being baptized and not be saved?

Not at the point of baptism; that is precisely what the sacrament of baptism accomplishes: It places the person baptized into a state of grace.
Now, if you are asking about where that person will spend eternity, that is another question altogether. Whether or not the baptized Christian will persevere unto the end, thus arriving home in Heaven, is another matter.
As long as you keep conflating justification, sanctification, etc, you are going to be misunderstanding all of us.
But the state of grace is, indeed, bestowed by God through the waters of baptism.
Now, God is, of course, not confined by the sacraments which He has given us. But the normative way for initial receipt of the prevenient grace of God, is through baptism. This has been the consistent teaching of the church throughout history.
It’s really very simple, when you slow down, and ttry to understand the usage of the word “grace”.

 

[benedictus2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
IF it is by Grace that you believe infants, mentally ill, the deaf and mute can be saved. How do they aquire Grace? If they are unable to confess Jesus is Lord in front of your bible study worship on a given sunday? How do these in your church community recieve Grace?

You’re thinking like a Catholic; you need to think outside the box; try thinking biblically, and studying God’s word.

And remember, sacraments are considered the “normative” way of receiving grace; however, they’re not the only way; don’t you know that?

I have come to the conclusion that Sandusky’s way of responding is by evasion and obfuscation.

Please answer Gabriels question.
IF it is by Grace that you believe infants, mentally ill, the deaf and mute can be saved. How do they aquire Grace? If they are unable to confess Jesus is Lord in front of your bible study worship on a given sunday? How do these in your church community recieve Grace?

HOW?

 

[savedsinner]

That’s not even worth my time—it’s all, or nothing. :coffeeread:

You are probably better off, they would probalby hang up on you anyways.

And as for the 33,000 denominations, well I would have to see a list to truly believe that.
Here is a lint to a chart from wikipedia of Protestant denominations in America.

 

[De_Maria]

These two passage deal with faith, and the lack of it—faith is active.

In other words, you agree with the Catholic teaching of faith and works.

Otherwise, you are denying the efficacy of works and St. James is EXPLICIT.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that** by works** a man is justified, and** not by faith only**.

Note how St. James not only emphasizes works, but denies the concept of faith alone.

Maybe you don’t believe that grace is “substance.”

However, guanophore and Catholic Dude, and others do as we’ve had this discussion; however, it revolves around justification and the ”infusion of grace and righteousness.”

Grace is participation in the life of God. If that is considered “substance” then it is Divine and Spiritual Substance. The Blood of Christ is God’s grace, so I can see their point.

There is, indeed, in the first instance, a vast difference in the respective positions of God and man; but by the infusion of grace man receives a patent of nobility, and thus a friendship of excellency (amicitia excellentiae) is established between God and the just. (See Schiffini, “De gratia divina”, 305 sqq., Freiburg, 1901.)

That sounds in perfect correspondence to Scripture:
Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

According to Scripture then, grace can be viewed as a Divine substance which can be poured and shed by the Holy Spirit. Just as the Blood of Christ is poured out for us and shed for us.

I agree; that’s because it’s the Spirit who convicts, De Maria, and He doesn’t convict everyone.

You are changing subjects midstream. If one can’t be convicted, he isn’t refusing grace. By the justice of God, if one does not commit sin and thus remove himself from God’s presence, God will save him.

God’s grace works through me, and it works through the rankest pagan engaged in humanitarian work as well.

OK.

Grace is not a substance,

There are manifold gifts of grace.
1 Peter 4:10
As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Love is one.

2 Corinthians 8:7
Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

If God’s grace of love can be shed in our hearts, then at least some of the Grace of God is substance. Divine substance.

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

And God is love:
1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

And that confirms the teaching that Grace is a participation in the life of God:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1997 (361 bytes ) preview document matches
7 **Grace is a participation in the ****life of **God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ,
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1997.htm

but an attitude of God

Like any word, grace has many meanings. You have no authority to deny one because you accept another.

Unless you can disprove by Scripture, the fact that Love is grace and the interpretation of the Catholic Church, why should I believe you that grace is simply an attitude?

toward the sinner in which He providentially influences the circumstances of everyone, even the pagan, and even through the pagan; God doesn’t work through those in Christ only.

Agreed.

Point?

The efficacy of works to save a soul.

Point?

God commands works of mercy.

One of your messages claimed that our participation in grace was passive. That God alone was active. Have you changed your mind or why do you seem confused by my stressing the efficacy of works?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[benedictus2]

If that’s the truth, then I say with whole-hearted that for you, the worst is yet to come.

Worst for who? I am not the one who believes in a god who
will send a person to suffer for all eternity when this same person has followed what this god has commanded him to do: love one another.

I believe in a God of mercy, a God who says: Ephraim how can I part with you, Israel how can I give you up?

What a sad place you are in right now for you to believe in such a god.

 

[cazayoux]

You are probably better off, they would probalby hang up on you anyways.

And as for the 33,000 denominations, well I would have to see a list to truly believe that.
Here is a lint to a chart from wikipedia of Protestant denominations in America.

A bit deceptive aren’t you?

I found the full article on wiki.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism

Even the caption for the graphic doesn’t claim that it is exhaustive.
If you want a longer list, go to the phone book for any major city in America and look up ‘church’.

No matter.
Let’s say that there are only 11 different protestant denominations.
The issue still remains.
All go to the bible for the truth and we see 11 different views of it.
Why is that?
If truth is truth, and the bible is so very clear, why doesn’t everyone agree as to the interpretation of scripture?

michel

 

[benedictus2]

sandusky;:

It’s any of them that teach the true Gospel. They all make up the one body of Christ that is His church. :ehh:

Okay, what’s so hard to understand about ONE (1).

Not any, not some, ONE.

If Christ established A Church, that Church would still be here today because he said “the gates of hell will not prevail against it” and He promised that He will be with her until the end of time.

So for the fourth time, which ONE? Methodist, Reformed Methodist, Presbyterian, Disciples of Christ, United Presbyterian, Anglican,etc.

The reason these Churches are not one today is because of doctrinal disagreement. If it is truly the Church that Christ established, they would all be ONE church.

So again, WHICH ONE? And please trace it back to Peter.

And please don’t say that all these Churches make up the one body of Christ because they are all separate churches. If these are really the body of Christ, then it would be like the body of Christ that has been hacked to pieces.

 

[Mickey]

We become entirely innocent when Jesus washes our sins away in Baptism and in the Confessional

Your statement is false.

As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
St Irenaeus, (120-205 AD )

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