I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

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IOW, faith alone?

I don’t know which Catholic to believe?
I don’t know where you got the impression that Guanophore is teaching faith alone. He is teaching faith and works. I’ll let him clarify it for you, but I’m familiar with his theology.

In the meantime, I’ll give an example what St. Paul meant by faith:
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

In other words, by faith we work. So, St. Paul was teaching faith and works.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
I don’t know where you got the impression that Guanophore is teaching faith alone. He is teaching faith and works. I’ll let him clarify it for you, but I’m familiar with his theology.

In the meantime, I’ll give an example what St. Paul meant by faith:
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

In other words, by faith we work. So, St. Paul was teaching faith and works.

Sincerely,

De Maria
A pint of grace, De Maria?
 
I don’t know where you got the impression that Guanophore is teaching faith alone. He is teaching faith and works. I’ll let him clarify it for you, but I’m familiar with his theology.

In the meantime, I’ll give an example what St. Paul meant by faith:
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

In other words, by faith we work. So, St. Paul was teaching faith and works.

Sincerely,

De Maria
Paul clearly taught that true saving faith works. But the works we do in Christ is not the basis of our justification before God. It is only evidence that we have been justified and born from above at conversion. A Christian already has the perfect righteousness of Christ . Therefore, how can we possibily add to that perfection found in Christ alone as a basis of our justification before God?
 
The Bible is much more effectual when discussing issues with biblical Christians. Please give it a try.
As a Christian, your insults do not hurt me.

The Church Fathers give us an line of connection to the Holy Apostoles and Jesus Christ. The early Church Fathers were disciples of many of the original Apostles (ie:St Ignatius of Antioch). Through this Sacred Tradition, Catholics and Orthodox receive the true interpretation of Sacred Scripture. And so we listen to the voices of these holy saints, fathers, confessors and martyrs. Why on earth would I accept the interpretation of someone on an internet forum named “Reformed” who tells me that I am not a Biblical Christian? What did you reform? What was revealed to your ancestors 500 years ago which now makes you think that you are some type of preserved remnant?

The deepest wells have the clearest water.

I will pray for you–whoever you are.
 
Not FOR salvation. Not according to the Bible.Man is justified by God Himself through FAITH alone; justification being gifted through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus - the crossRom 3:23-24 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Rom 3:27-30 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.Bottom line, the Apostolic teaching regarding justification is that it’s gifted from God through faith alone based on the work of redemption accomplished by Christ alone. Catholicism (the system) denies this and adds works.
No, if you read what is actually taught by the Catholic Church, you will see that salvation is by grace, through faith. It is not that “works” are “added” as you suggest, but we do not “subtract” the works as the Reformed do. We recognize that works were never separated from the grace that saves us through faith. In fact, most fail to read on to vs. 10 of Eph. 2:8-10. We are saved “for” these works, and they are not separated or “alone” from the faith.
See what I mean?If there’s conditions attached then it’s not really “freely” given, is it?
This is a myth that you have been taught. There have always been conditions. Condition does not nullify the gift. When I attended seminary, I was given a scholarship. It was a gift, and the generosity of it made me weep. There were conditions, however, that I had to meet to acquire the gift. I did not earn it.
You present a contradictory statement. The gospel of grace based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross is not in the “entire” Bible.
Well, we read it differently. 😃
And according to Paul salvation/justification is gifted from God through faith alone, based completely on the work of redemption by Christ alone.
Actually, it does not say this. You have been taught to add the words “alone” to certain verses.
The addition of works to be completed by you is a “different gospel,” according to the teachings of Paul and the mystery of Christ which was was divinely revealed to him.
It would be, I agree, if indeed they were “added”. But, they are not. When Paul writes about faith, he is speaking about a faith that demonstrates itself in good deeds. They are not separated from saving grace, but are the fruit of that grace. A good tree bears good fruit.
 
Did David lose grace when he committed adultery with Bathsheba, and in deceit tried to cover it up, and when his deceit failed, he murdered Uriah—did David lose grace because of that?

(Why didn’t David lose grace?)
Actually, David left grace prior to the sin. This is what causes sin, is falling from the state of grace. Grace is what saves, so when we separate our selves from it,we separate ourselves from the only thing that can save us.

Sin separates us from the grace of God. When David looked upon Bathsheeba with lust he had already committed adultery with her in his heart.

God restored David to a state of grace because he repented of his sin. David still paid the temporal consequence for his sin.
 
The grace of salvation, once given, is not lost. (One may interrupt sanctification; however, we don’t agree on that either).
I agree. It remains there until the last day for the person to which it was given to return to it’s stream. The person to which it is given, however, may decide not to return to the gift, and will leave it lying by the side of the road, or buried in a field. 🤷
 
No.

Salvation is on the basis of grace, Judith; that’s why sin cannot destroy salvation; if sin can destroy salvation then salvation is no longer on the basis of grace, but on the basis of works.
Yes, salvation is on the basis of grace.

Why do you keep calling him “Judith”?

Sin demonstrates that a person has left the state of grace that produces salvation.

We are back to that thinking error that was pointed out to you. You are erroneously assuming that because something can destroy life, that something can also give life. A bullet can take a life, but it does not have the power to give life.

Sin has the power to separate us from the saving grace of God, but it cannot provide that life.
 
Look upon the Cross of Jesus Christ, Sandusky.
De Maria, the verses you cite employ figures of speech; they are a way of conveying a concept.

Nevertheless, grace in the theological context has a very narrow meaning—it’s the unmerited, undeserved favor of God toward the ungodly—it’s not a substance.
 
Interest that this title must presume that those who affirmed which books were in the Bible at the council of Nicaea were not converted to Christ.

Hmm… Interesting that God would choose lost individuals to help bring forth His word. :rolleyes:
 
Roman Catholicism and Orthodox are just another Christian denomination. There are a wide range of churches that you consider Protetstant (non-Catholic). Some are true churches and some are apostate false churches. Like all churches, there are degrees of purity. To answer your question, the Catholic Church is not a biblical church; therefore God worked out a remnant saved by grace to depart from Rome (exodus). You should leave because of what God reveals in the Scriptures in regards to the gospel of God’s grace. I appreciate your question. Now that you are retired, I hope you spend time studying the issues to the glory and praise of God.
I’ve read the bible. Everything that i’ve read leads me to believe that the Catholic Church is Christs True Church. Peter was clearly chosen to lead Christs earthly Church.( If not, why did Jesus call him rock, and “upon this rock I will build My Church” and later, tell Peter to feed and tend to, i.e shepherd, His sheep. The shepherd leads does he not. ) The Catholic Church can trace It’s authority back to Peter, and from him to Jesus Himself. That authority is needed because without it, as I’ve said before, everyone interprets the Bible to suit themselves and there is no unity.
Two more points. If your denomination is Biblical, then do you practice the Eucharist as Jesus commanded in three of the four Gopels, and went on to describe in detail in John. I may be wrong, and if I am my apologies, but the Catholic Church is the only one to follow " the letter of the law’ on this topic. Which is it? Is every word in the Bible Truth or not.
Secondly, I would be careful as to how much I 'knew" the Bible if I were some of you. The Pharisees knew the Word also and look at how wrong they were about Jesus.
 
I’ve read the bible. Everything that i’ve read leads me to believe that the Catholic Church is Christs True Church. Peter was clearly chosen to lead Christs earthly Church.( If not, why did Jesus call him rock, and “upon this rock I will build My Church” and later, tell Peter to feed and tend to, i.e shepherd, His sheep. The shepherd leads does he not. ) The Catholic Church can trace It’s authority back to Peter, and from him to Jesus Himself. That authority is needed because without it, as I’ve said before, everyone interprets the Bible to suit themselves and there is no unity.
Two more points. If your denomination is Biblical, then do you practice the Eucharist as Jesus commanded in three of the four Gopels, and went on to describe in detail in John. I may be wrong, and if I am my apologies, but the Catholic Church is the only one to follow " the letter of the law’ on this topic. Which is it? Is every word in the Bible Truth or not.
Secondly, I would be careful as to how much I 'knew" the Bible if I were some of you. The Pharisees knew the Word also and look at how wrong they were about Jesus.
I really like what you posted as your last statement. Jesus said somthing similar. When comming to the Scriptures, we need to see Christ and the gospel, even in the Old Testament.

John 5:39

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

Would you prayfully consider joining me on this thread below. I’m really surprised other Catholics have not joined me on it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731

🙂 😉
 
Not FOR salvation.
Sure for salvation. For our personal salvation. Jesus sacrifice on the Cross was enough to save every man that has ever existed and will exist. But not every man will be saved. Why?

Scripture is clear, because we must apply those graces by patient continuance in good deeds:
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

St. Paul put it another way:
Colossians 1:24 *
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:*
Not according to the Bible.Man is justified by God Himself through FAITH alone;
I guess you’ll have to show me that one in the Bible. Because I see where the Bible says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not byfaith** only.
justification being gifted through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus - the crossRom 3:23-24 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”
Rom 3:27-30 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Well, I’m glad you’re in Romans, because St. Paul goes on to explain what he means in detail. Lets move on to Chapter 4:
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

This verse is troublesome for Protestants because obviously, it seems to directly contradict St. James:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

But St. Paul goes on to explain more:
*10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. *

What does that mean? Well, circumcision is a work. Yet, Abraham was reckoned righteousness before the work of the law, the law being the covenant of circumcision.

But, does St. Paul recognize that Abraham worked? Sure he does. First of all, St. Paul teaches the obedience of faith:
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Secondly, still in Romans, St. Paul recognizes that only the doers of the law are justified:
Romans 2:13*
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.*

Third, even a person unfamiliar with Scripture knows that Abraham worked. Just go to Genesis 12. This man left his home and family to travel to places unknown based simply on God’s promises:

Hebrews 11:8*
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. ** 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
*
And this is not all, lets finish Romans 4:
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.* 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.** 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb:** 20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; **but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; ****** 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. *
**
cont’d
 
cont’d

Do you know what that means? Even though he was 100 years old and his wife was 100 years old and they had been trying to conceive for all those years, he believed God and acted upon that belief in order to engender Isaac. Isaac was not born of a virgin as Jesus was. Isaac was born of the loins of Abraham.

So, ask yourself these questions: If Abram had not obeyed God and left his home when God asked, would God have called him righteous?

If Abraham had not acted upon his belief in God and made love to his wife at a very old age in order to engender Isaac, would God have called Abraham righteous? How would the promise have been passed on if Isaac wasn’t born to inherit it?

Essentially, your error is due to a misunderstanding of Scripture. Yes, salvation is a gift, because nothing we can do can merit it. But, because God is gracious, merciful and generous, He gives it to us anyway, if we work for it.
Bottom line, the Apostolic teaching regarding justification is that it’s gifted from God through faith
True. But there is more. It is only given to those who seek it in good works:
Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
alone based on the work of redemption accomplished by Christ alone.
The work of redemption was accomplished by Christ. But the grace is not applied unless you accept it in Baptism.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Catholicism (the system) denies this and adds works.
Catholicism follows Scripture exactly. It is you who remove works.
See what I mean?If there’s conditions attached then it’s not really “freely” given, is it?
Sure it is. It is a free will offering. It is up to you to accept by performing certain works. The same happens in human laws all the time. Grants are given on certain conditions. In my own company, we receive gifts from the company every year. One of the conditions is that we be employees. Sometimes, even extended to family members of employees. Other gifts are given based on merit.

The company has the right to withhold these free will gifts at any time.
You present a contradictory statement.The gospel of grace based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross is not in the “entire” Bible.
Code:
Eph 3:1-5 "For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;"
…says Paul.
Thats true. Can you guess why? I’ll give you a hint, was baptism required of the Jews?
And according to Paul salvation/justification is gifted from God through faith alone,
Nope, when you combine the words “faith” and “alone” you contradict Scripture:
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
based completely on the work of redemption by Christ alone.
No doubt. But that is just one side of the equation. Christ has given enough grace to redeem all of mankind. But not all of mankind will be redeemed. The rest depends on our individual response to redemption by the application of those graces through the sacraments and through the works which God prepared that we should walk in them.
The addition of works to be completed by you is a “different gospel,” according to the teachings of Paul and the mystery of Christ which was was divinely revealed to him.
We don’t add works. Works are required by God. It is you who remove the requirement for works.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
We don’t add works. Works are required by God. It is you who remove the requirement for works.

Sincerely,

De Maria
Christianity is a religion based on works. It is a works righteousness Faith. God requires perfect obedience to His Will, or sinlessness to be in His Holy presence and to have a Heavenly Father relationship with Him. God provides what is required in His Son alone, because only Jesus Christ can provide the perfect righteousness needed for all eternity. This is the gospel of God’s grace in a nutshell:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
 
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