I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

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Rom 11:22
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

People who are not joined cannot be cut off.:eek:
But … but … but … it only says “cut off,” it doesn’t actually say “lose grace,” so it must mean something else …

I actually got that response once (on a well-known anti-Catholic board). And where exactly do people go who are cut off from Jesus? Heaven?
 
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vichlopet:
With respect to my sonship in Christ, I don’t beleive that someone who is born again can forsake Christ because he is born of God. See I John 3:9, Eph 1:13, and Ephesians 4:30

If a man does forsake Christ then he is like Judas was, and that is: “a devil from the beginning”.
That’s what the scripture says; however, the Catholic ultimately is not bound by the scripture, but by what the Church’s teaching hierarchy teaches.

Thus Ignatius of Loyola’s exhortation to all Catholics in all ages:“We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”.

🤷
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How do you square Mt 12:37 with Jn 5:24:John 5:24****24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Ahhh, the penny drops.

This is the point I have been trying to make all along.

We cannot read the passages of the Bible in isolation because some of them seem to contradict the others.

Which is why the Catholics view point makes so much more sense.

Belief in Christ entails **following **him and doing all he commands. It is not the one who calls him Lord, Lord only, but those who prove his Lordship over their lives by service to the least of his brethren. His act of washing his disciples feet at the last supper is one of service and he commands us to do the same.

This is a much more a complete view of Scripture.

A protestant convert to Catholicism commented that what he likes most about being Catholic is that there are no more hard passages. The teachings of Christ form a whole.

That is why in the Catholic church, we go through the entire Bible in the 3 year liturgical cycle.

Grace is what makes us bear fruit. And the tree that doesn’t is to be cut down.

Anything less, is empty faith. Much like the pharisees.
 
I have no idea whether you understand what that paragraph is saying, Sandusky. It certainly doesn’t say we can “earn” salvation. Read the first sentence again:

… no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.
You said that a Catholics don’t believe that good works can “earn” grace. In fact, the Catechism clearly states otherwise. Sandusky has quoted the passage of the CCC that states this.
 
That’s what the scripture says; however, the Catholic ultimately is not bound by the scripture, but by what the Church’s teaching hierarchy teaches.

Thus Ignatius of Loyola’s exhortation to all Catholics in all ages:“We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”.

🤷
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Sandusky, you speak of Ignatius…but do you even realize the significance of him? Do you even realize the history we have as a church? In school, i was looking at a sort of church family tree. It was just a normal book i was looking in, not Catholic or even christian. And it showed that the very first church were “early roman christians.” And that they were mainly underground with their leader (pope) because of persecution as being a cult, which of course they weren’t. So the church was around since Jesus commanded peter (the rock) to go to rome in the first place. You can say that we did not exist until constantine or something, but that is a lie. All that he may have done is allowed us to come into the light of day rather than hide, and even he had alterior motives. look on google, or ask, for “list of catholic popes” and thier will be a traceable linage dating all the way back to st.peter. or go to you tube, and search for uncorrupted/perfectly preserved bodies of the saints. Or maybe just look at proof of the catholic church in all the letters between churches which mention communion, and the word “katholike” (catholic/universal)
 
Thanks, but I don’t think that the RCC had little to offer me: but rather, it has nothing to offer me. The RCC has a Jesus complex. If I love Jesus I will love her, if I recieve Jesus I will receive her and so on. When a catholc says you need the church they are actually saying the church is Jesus. This is another Christ.
I could see how a person can misunderstand this. You are right, the church does have a “Jesus complex” to the extent that the Church is not separated from Christ. The Church is the Holy Bride of Jesus. This is not, as you erroneously seem to believe, a “Roman” phenomenon. On the contrary, all the other 22 Rites of the Catholic Church also consider Him to be the Head of the Church. The Church is not a headless body.

Eph 5:25-27
s Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish."

She is holy and without blemish because she is cleansed by Jesus Himself.

He also identifies Himself completely with His spouse. When Saul was persecuting the Church, He confronted him, and said, “why are you persecuting me”?
 
You don’t even understand the bible, as demonstrated by your submission to the authority of a church who claims to have written the bible, compiled the bible, canonized the bible, and that it is the only one who can properly interpret the bible; how can you really know if their interpretation is correct? :hmmm:
This is an odd conclusion. You are saying that one who submits to the Church founded by Christ who wrote, compiled, and canonized the bible cannot underdstand the bible.

It seems like you are saying that, if one would reject that church, then one could understand the bible properly. 🤷
 
This is an odd conclusion. You are saying that one who submits to the Church founded by Christ who wrote, compiled, and canonized the bible cannot underdstand the bible.

It seems like you are saying that, if one would reject that church, then one could understand the bible properly. 🤷
Hi guanophore,

I read your posting which help me write my last post on another thread. Do you mind responding to it on a thread that I started. Please consider responding to Star Wars post 473.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=272497&page=32

http://www.dorothyho.com/archives/yoda.jpg

“The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God” Yoda
 
Salvation is the running theme of the Old Testament – usually meaning salvatiion from Egyptians, Assyrians or Babylonians.

The prophets are forever telling Israel that her troubles are the result of her sin: idolatry being top on the list.

With the exile(s), and the development of Pharisaic Judaism, the focus on the divine promise to “give you hearts of flesh” (Ezekiel), the idea of salvation is broadened. It becomes more personal. Without this form of devotion that held the Covenant people together despite the destruction of the temple – the central feature of their worship – Judaism could not have developed in a way that set the stage for a Savior that was NOT a military leader.

Pharisees get bad press in the NT but if you read between the lines and see them in the context of Jewish survival in exile, of the constant prophetic reference to the sins of the people as the cause of their troubles, and their belief in the bodily resurrection of the dead, you can begin to limn the picture of a world being made ready for a savior that saves not from “trouble” but from the cause of the trouble. At the root, Pharisaic Judaism, which was often expressed in rigidity over detailed prescriptions, attempted to direct every detail of one’s life towards love of God and neighbor.

The Resurrection gave people a much broader definition of ‘salvation’ – one that was consistent with the truest roots of the Jewish heart. All the “best” early Christians were Pharisees: Lazarus and the Bethany sisters, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, Saul . . . Saull’s conversion was not so much away from his Pharisaic roots as a conversion to his Pharisaic roots – that saw love of God and neighbor as the essence of Jewish faith and life. “Salvation” was “to” this new life every bit as much as it was “away” from sin.
An excellent reply, mercygate. Truly excellent.
I appreciate the time that you gave to the reply. http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif

I reply, at length, in the following post. No one need read same.
I post it, for those following this thread.
This post will challenge the entire Christian project.

It has been said: ‘Ideas have consequences.’
They surely do.

What is the theological consequence - of the doctrine concerning original sin?

Best,

reen
 
Note:

This post may solely be of interest to those following this thread-
yet not posting to same. In this post, I challenge the very basis of
Christian doctrine: ‘original sin.’

“Ideas have consequences…”

-Saul manufactured ‘original’ sin. He was a brilliant man,
and he was taught by the grandson of Hillel. He knew darn
well that Judaism did not hold that the sin of Adam was
‘inherited’ by each man and woman. [Judaism, in terms of
the dominant thought, holds that man is born in innocence.]

While it may have shifted the view from a military savior,
Christianity actually teaches a God/man, as savior.

Yet where appears the acknowledgment ------> that God forgave sin,
offering both mercy and eternal life to* all* people, not just
members of the chosen people…and this was taught
centuries before the birth of Jesus.

This reality [God forgives sin, in the OT] abrogated the ‘need’ for a savior -
from personal sin, quite obviously. So Saul now teaches a doctrine foreign to
the parent faith: ontological sin. A sin in man’s very being.
[This, then, providing cogency - to the novel doctrine that
a savior was needed from this purported ‘inheritance’ from Adam.]

This is why doctrine, concerning original sin, is held to be
a ‘hinge’ doctrine.
No original sin = no need for a savior from same.

The Church, herself, sees the criticality of this doctrine.

CCC from Vatican website, # 389

The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News
that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation
is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,
knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin
without undermining the mystery of Christ.

It was from this teaching that concepts like Limbo were
discussed… for 700 years. An off-the-wall speculation:
-that an innocent, who died before baptism, would be
deprived of the beatific vision, for all eternity.

The colossal error, of this teaching, provided a field ripe for such speculation:
At one point, Augustine held that such infants would be subject to
the ‘positive miseries of the damned.’
Even the Baltimore Catechism, of days past,
taught that these infants would be deprived of heaven.

To cavil over the point that this was never official teaching, is to ignore the salient fact -
that it was taught - to generations of Catholics, and speculated upon for 7 centuries.

This is where the falsity of the doctrine of original sin is seen most clearly.
Room was made - for such speculation [based on the doctrine of original sin]:
Limbus patrum, Limbus infantium.

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

This, to me, points to the colossal error of teaching a God/man -
the ‘need’ for whom is based in an erroneous teaching: original sin.

reen12
 
Note:
This post may solely be of interest to those following this thread-
yet not posting to same. In this post, I challenge the very basis
of Christian doctrine: ‘original sin.’
Even the Baltimore Catechism, of days past,
taught that these infants would be deprived of heaven.

To cavil over the point that this was never official teaching, is to ignore the salient fact -
that it was taught - to generations of Catholics, and speculated upon for 7 centuries.
See # 632 The Baltimore Catechism

ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-14.htm

By the 1990’s, apparently, the notion of unbaptized infants
going to a place of ‘natural happiness’ - was no longer seen.
Yet those of us, old enough, remember being required to
memorize this ‘teaching.’

Living history, as it were.

I post this reference, in the event that someone
might question the fact that this was taught.

Note the word ‘cannot.’ No ‘maybe’ about it.

See # 632 The Baltimore Catechism

ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-14.htm

And this was to be* memorized*.

Imagine the effect of this ‘teaching’ - on those who’s infant died, before baptism.
These parents were taught that they would never see
their infant in heaven.

The falsity of original sin is seen in full clarity, here.

Of logical necessity ---->
-an infant cannot have baptism of desire
-an infant cannot do ‘good works,’ possibly meriting heaven.

Theologians, caught in their own doctrinal web…hence a place of
‘natural happiness,’ not heaven.

“Ideas have consequences.”

They do, indeed.

reen12
 
That would be by grace; your church understands and acknowledges the necessity of grace, but has never understood the sufficiency of it.
IF it is by Grace that you believe infants, mentally ill, the deaf and mute can be saved. How do they aquire Grace? If they are unable to confess Jesus is Lord in front of your bible study worship on a given sunday? How do these in your church community recieve Grace?

IF you researched the Catholic Saints, and today’s religious, I believe you will find that the Catholic church teaches by example that the grace of God is sufficient. Surprisingly you can easily make judgement calls about the Catholic church 2000 years later, where were you and your man made Christianity when Catholilc Christians were being persecuted who remained in God’s Graces in their Martyrdom. NO sandusky, it is you who have no understanding of the sufficiency of Grace. The Catholic church already lives by this example, to which you have no living or martyrs from your Christianity to speak of as an example of lived Grace.

Peace
 
It just occured to me that I have never regreted my conversion. When I was saved, no one told me that I have to leave the Catholic religion, I simply believed that Jesus Christ paid for my sins with his blood and I called upon him to save me: just like the Philipian jailer in Acts 16:31. He asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” He did, and he was. To the saved believer, the thought of someone trying to administer God’s grace through some ritual is the highest form of idolatry there is. Jesus said, “it is finished”, not ‘it’s begun’.

I just hope that people will see that God’s grace is through faith in Christ and not in some man made rituals. May the Lord truly bless every one who is seeking to know him in truth.
Yes and it sounds as though you are still nineteen! For you haven’t gained one iota of wisdom or understanding about the truth. Every time I hear this kind of statement from fullish people like you, it makes very me sad. you are just like a cancer which feeds off the body, mindless of the fact that, in destroying the body, it destroys it self!! But this time my friend you have picked the wrong body. For this is the body of “Christ” and its receptor sells will not allow you to prevail, because they are strengthened by the angels of God continually. "There is one body one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and one father of all, who is above all and through all and in all."Eph-4-1-7. "You did not learn Christ!-assuming that you have heard about him and were [taught in him,] as the truth is in Jesus. “Eph-4-20-22.” eg his body the Church. Jesus died on the Cross to give us life, his life. He descended from Heaven, and only he can ascend, he is our head and we are his body. "Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is [lacking in Christ’s afflictions] for the sake of his body, that is the Church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of his glory of this mystery, which is Christ, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,that we may present every man mature in Christ. For this I toil striving with all the energy which he mightily inspires within me. “Colossians-1-24-29 inclusive.” [DOE’S THAT SOUND AS IF IT’S FINISHED,] Jesus founded his Church. Did he not, why? If it was all complete, why? would the Apostles suffer and die, to bring us his, word and his, truth, if it was finished, we would all be in heaven living Happy ever after. But we are not, why because the resurrection will not be complete until Jesus by the power of his Spirit in us has defeated the world and the evil one through us his body. “And their talk will eat its way like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus Phile’tus who have swerved from the truth by holding that the [Resurrection is past already”] they are upsetting the faith of some. Timothy 2-2-17-19 "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over things all for the Church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. “Ephesians 1-21-23” "But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I do, I will send him to you. And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation: sin, because they do not believe in me; righteousness, because I am going to the father and you will no longer see me; condemnation, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. So until Jesus hands every thing over to the father it is not finished.
 
Gabriel of 12:
IF it is by Grace that you believe infants, mentally ill, the deaf and mute can be saved. How do they aquire Grace? If they are unable to confess Jesus is Lord in front of your bible study worship on a given sunday? How do these in your church community recieve Grace?
You’re thinking like a Catholic; you need to think outside the box; try thinking biblically, and studying God’s word.

And remember, sacraments are considered the “normative” way of receiving grace; however, they’re not the only way; don’t you know that?
Gabriel of 12:
IF you researched the Catholic Saints, and today’s religious, I believe you will find that the Catholic church teaches by example that the grace of God is sufficient.
Why don’t you make the case for that by supporting your assertion?
Gabriel of 12:
Surprisingly you can easily make judgement calls about the Catholic church 2000 years later, where were you and your man made Christianity when Catholilc Christians were being persecuted who remained in God’s Graces in their Martyrdom.

NO sandusky, it is you who have no understanding of the sufficiency of Grace. The Catholic church already lives by this example, to which you have no living or martyrs from your Christianity to speak of as an example of lived Grace.
My friend wake up; one needn’t go back 2,000 years to read of martyrs—Christian martyrs are being made presently. In fact, I knew some who are now with their Lord, and I know many more presently ministering in countries who would either imprison them, or put them to death, were their identies uncovered.

So you can keep your meaningless, cheap, inaccurate and ignorant vitriol to yourself until you stand up and do as they have done, and are now doing.

You’re living in a cocoon! Are you comfortable?
 
You’re thinking like a Catholic; you need to think outside the box; try thinking biblically, and studying God’s word.

And remember, sacraments are considered the “normative” way of receiving grace; however, they’re not the only way; don’t you know that?

Why don’t you make the case for that by supporting your assertion?

My friend wake up; one needn’t go back 2,000 years to read of martyrs—Christian martyrs are being made presently. In fact, I knew some who are now with their Lord, and I know many more presently ministering in countries who would either imprison them, or put them to death, were their identies uncovered.

**Then your false accusation is made present about the Catholic church and sufficient Grace by her martyrs, and I also stated the living. Maybe before you jump to conclusions about judgements about me and my Catholic faith, try reading with Grace of God. But maybe the grace you have may not be sufficient, or is of another kind. “Pride” maybe?

So how are the deaf, mute, mentally handicapped saved as well as infants in your Church?**

So you can keep your meaningless, cheap, inaccurate and ignorant vitriol to yourself until you stand up and do as they have done, and are now doing.

You’re living in a cocoon! Are you comfortable?
Thank you for that blessing, but yes I am quite comfortable in Jesus Christ, rather than a man made theology of Christian salvation. How about you? have you been given the guarantee of salvation?
 
I said,
And being innocent, he was in a state of grace.

Grace does not need for sin to exist, in order to exist. Grace is a right relationship with God.
You responded,
New Advent.

This is for too, Gamera.
I eagerly await your dismissal, and explaining away what I’ve linked. :tiphat:
St. Thomas is using the phrase “state of innocence” to talk about Adam’s original state, before he sinned.

But where does he say that this is something different than being in a state of grace?

And of what interest is the subject he is discussing, unless there is some chance that the human race as a whole is one day going to be restored to the same state of innocence in which Adam originated, so as to enjoy not only a right relationship with God, but also a right relationship with the rest of God’s Creation? (In other words, why do we need to know what Adam’s relationship with the animals was, unless we, being in a state of grace, are meant to imitate him?)

Has it not been prophesied that we will handle poisonous snakes, and that our children will play with the lions? How so, if the state of grace is not the same state as the state of innocence? 🤷
 
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jmcrae:
St. Thomas is using the phrase “state of innocence” to talk about Adam’s original state, before he sinned.
Judith, I didn’t read the piece as I had only one point to make—the fact of Adam being created in a state of innocence has been around for more than a couple of years.

So you, Gamera, and anyone else who stumbles upon this thread that didn’t know that, have learned something.

You’re welcome. :tiphat:
 
Thank you for that blessing, but yes I am quite comfortable in Jesus Christ, rather than a man made theology of Christian salvation. How about you? have you been given the guarantee of salvation?
As the point I’ve been making on this entire thread indicates, I have.
 
Judith, I didn’t read the piece as I had only one point to make—the fact of Adam being created in a state of innocence has been around for more than a couple of years.
Believe it or not, I already knew that Adam was created in a state of innocence - which is to say, a state of grace. 😉

What was startling was the idea that “innocence” is something different than “grace” in your mind.

We become entirely innocent when Jesus washes our sins away in Baptism and in the Confessional; did you know that? That’s what the state of grace is. 🙂
 
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