I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[Pixie_Dust]

Well if the word of God tricked me than I’m glad to be tricked. By the way the voice of the True Shepherd is found in the pages of a book not in some golden temple full of idols.

The voice of the Shepherd is heard in the successors of His Apostles:

Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 20:21 - Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me [with full authority on Heaven on Earth], even so I am sending you.”

Apostolic Authority is the authority of God the Father, as given to Christ and then to the apostles. When you heard the apostles pronounce on matters of faith and morals, you were hearing Jesus Christ Himself.

Luke 10:16 - “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 14:16-17 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Paraclete (Helper), to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

The apostles received the Holy Spirit of truth.

John 14:26 - But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 16:13 - When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

The apostles were able to teach on faith and morals without error because they were guided by the Holy Spirit, who doesn’t make mistakes.

 

[sandusky]

Obviously you choose to pick and choose which part of the Bible you believe in as opposed to the entire Bible? Are you one of these people who “worships” Paul and the Bible as your Gods?

You don’t even understand the bible, as demonstrated by your submission to the authority of a church who claims to have written the bible, compiled the bible, canonized the bible, and that it is the only one who can properly interpret the bible; how can you really know if their interpretation is correct?

 

[sandusky]

It’s grace. How many times must I repeat it?

Not if you can lose your salvation by your works; that’s not grace.

Gamera:

That makes no sense whatsoever. What is your source for that claim?

Define grace.

Gamera:

Yeah, I’m real gullible.

Actually, IMO, it’s blindness, not gullibility.

 

[vichlopet]

Dear friend, in the Catholic Church I seek and find Jesus.
And if the Sacraments were man made, that man is Jesus, who is both God and man. They are His gift to us.

God bless you, Trishie

I seek and find Jesus in his word, the Bible. Jesus did not make the sacraments, the RCC did. The RCC is not Jesus. Christ’s gift to his church is himself, not some man made rituals which replace him.

 

[benedictus2]

It’s either grace, or works.

Under grace, one doesn’t lose salvation on the basis of bad works, or sin; that loss of salvation can only occur in salvation by works—IMO, you’ve been hoodwinked by your magisterium, and you don’t even realize it.

Sandusky, what does the following mean then?

Matthew Charpter 25
**"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, **
**32 **
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
**33 **
**He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. **
**34 **
**Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **
**35 **
**For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, **
**36 **
**naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ **
**37 **
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
**38 **
**When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? **
**39 **
**When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ **
**40 **
**And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ **
41 **
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. **
**42 **
**For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, **
**43 **
**a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ **
**44 **
18**46 **
**And these will go off to eternal *Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ ***
***45 ***
***He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ ***
punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

While we do not merit our salvation, grace is what makes us do the above, and live the beautitudes.

For Catholics, good works is doing to Christ through service to others.

That is why the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith.

 

[Gamera]

Not if you can lose your salvation by your works; that’s not grace.

Says who?

Define grace.

Sorry — since you quoted above from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I’d assumed that you had read it.

“Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. Grace is a participation in the life of God … the grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it…” CCC 1996-7, 1999.

Actually, IMO, it’s blindness, not gullibility.

Nope, I’ve seen the light.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Not if you can lose your salvation by your works; that’s not grace.

We are saved by Grace. God’s Grace gives us the gift of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith. Not works of the law, but works that God does through us (Eph 2:10, Phil 2:13). If you’re just sittin’ back in your comfy chair, waitin’ for Jesus to come in the clouds, and not doing the good works for which Jesus tells us we will be judged, then you just might be a goat.

 

[Gamera]

I seek and find Jesus in his word, the Bible. Jesus did not make the sacraments, the RCC did. The RCC is not Jesus. Christ’s gift to his church is himself, not some man made rituals which replace him.

Jesus personally instituted all seven sacraments. All seven sacraments appear in the New Testament. They don’t “replace him” any more than the Bible “replaces” Him. They draw us closer to Him.

It’s interesting that you claim “Jesus did not make the sacraments.” I asked you above, could you please explain John 20:21-22 to me? It looks to me like Jesus personally authorized the Apostles to forgive sins.

I don’t see any passage where Jesus tells anyone to write the New Testament. By your reasoning, does that mean the New Testament is “manmade?”

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I seek and find Jesus in his word, the Bible. Jesus did not make the sacraments, the RCC did. The RCC is not Jesus. Christ’s gift to his church is himself, not some man made rituals which replace him.

The Word of God is Jesus. What if I showed you where the sacraments are found in the Bible? What if I showed you that Jesus founded one Church, the Catholic Church, from the Bible? He is fully present and working through the Sacraments, they can’t replace Him because He isn’t missing that He needs replaced! The “rituals” are man-made, Jesus Christ is the Man!

 

[benedictus2]

I seek and find Jesus in his word, the Bible. Jesus did not make the sacraments, the RCC did. The RCC is not Jesus. Christ’s gift to his church is himself, not some man made rituals which replace him.

That is true. You can find Jesus in the Bible.

Problem is you have very selective reading and narrow interpretations of the Bible.

Take for example a “Christian” who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour but proceeds to break some of the ten commandments (from the 3rd to the last).

Would you consider him a true Christian?

When I was in my last year in high school, a friend became “born again” and was saying that it was because she did not find Jesus in the Catholic church.

I gave these scenario to her: a huge precious stone was in a room. Two people were told to go look for it. One found it and the other didn’t. Did that mean that the precious stone was not there in the first place because the second person did not see?
I would say that it was more because person number two was blind or had deficient vision.

And if the Bible is sufficient, then how come there are more than 30,000 Protestant denominations all disagreeing on how to interpret the Bible and how to live the Christian life?

Christ promise to His Church which He founded on Peter is a promise to His Church and not his churches.

And by the way, the Bible is a Catholic book. We gave you the Bible so please thank the Catholic Church for that precious book.

 

[sandusky]

Gamera:

Says who?

The meaning of grace is that it’s undeserved favor. That favor begins with God giving it to a rebellious sinner who is not good enough to earn it; God doesn’t stop giving grace when the redeemed stumble. The corollary to not being good enough to earn grace, is that you’ll never be bad enough to lose grace. As the psalmist says, “If you, Lord, judge us by our iniquities, who could stand?” That’s a rhetorical question, the expected answer to that question is “no one,” not even the redeemed.

That’s why grace is grace; if you can lose your salvation, that’s not grace.

Gamera:

Nope, I’ve seen the light.

So you’ll be in heaven, and will never permanently walk away from Christ?

 

[sandusky]

We are saved by Grace. God’s Grace gives us the gift of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith. Not works of the law, but works that God does through us (Eph 2:10, Phil 2:13). If you’re just sittin’ back in your comfy chair, waitin’ for Jesus to come in the clouds, and not doing the good works for which Jesus tells us we will be judged, then you just might be a goat.

I work very hard, but that hard work is not why I’m saved, but grace.

 

[vichlopet]

I am sorry that you didn’t find Christ in His Church. I think you may have been done a disservice to not know Him where He has been for 2000 years, in the Catholic Church. I was fortunate to always know Jesus personally and intimately in the Church and never had to go elsewhere.

Actually, I was saved in 1993, and I continued to attend a Catholic church for the next few years. No one told me to leave the CC. My leaving was a result of me reading the word of God and seeking to know him with my whole heart continually. The Holy Spirit told me to leave the RCC through truths contained in the Scripture; I then began to learned the differences between Catholicism and born again bible believers. I actually didn’t even know what the reformation was. I heard of Protestants but I didn’t know what that meant either. So don’t be sorry, Christ found me and he led me to a New Testament bible believing Baptist Church. Jesus said: if you love me you will keep my words" and that is something that Bible Believers have done since Christ founded his church.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I work very hard, but that hard work is not why I’m saved, but grace.

Exactly what the Catholic Church teaches! Works alone do not save anymore than faith alone saves. Works (again, not works of the OT Law but the good works Jesus gives us to do through Him) are our response to God’s grace in our souls. Galatians calls it “Faith working through love.”

 

[benedictus2]

It’s either grace, or works.

Under grace, one doesn’t lose salvation on the basis of** bad works, or sin**;

Well, well. Let’s go back to the garden of eden.

Adam was in full possesion of grace having just been created by God. Then he **sins **by disobeying God. By your reasoning, Adam has not lost grace. It really is pointless then God sending us His only begotten Son.

2nd scenario. Johnny professes Christ as his Lord and Saviour.
But then because he is so sure of his salvation, he commits adultery, fornication, massacred a few people. And is unrepentant because he believes once saved, always saved. So he continues on his sinful life. Unremorseful to the end. Is he still saved?

I think your line of reasoning is used by those who want to say they are Christians but really wants the impunity to commit all sort of sin.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Actually, I was saved in 1993, and I continued to attend a Catholic church for the next few years. No one told me to leave the CC. My leaving was a result of me reading the word of God and seeking to know him with my whole heart continually. The Holy Spirit told me to leave the RCC through truths contained in the Scripture; I then began to learned the differences between Catholicism and born again bible believers. I actually didn’t even know what the reformation was. I heard of Protestants but I didn’t know what that meant either. So don’t be sorry, Christ found me and he led me to a New Testament bible believing Baptist Church. Jesus said: if you love me you will keep my words" and that is something that Bible Believers have done since Christ founded his church.

Well that’s very interesting. I was saved in 1993, myself, in a New Testament “Bible Believing” Baptist Church. Except I found that there were parts of the Bible that Baptists don’t really believe.

I searched the Scriptures, prayed fervently while reading the Gospels, seeking to know the whole Truth, and He led me to His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

 

[sandusky]

Exactly what the Catholic Church teaches! Works alone do not save anymore than faith alone saves. Works (again, not works of the OT Law but the good works Jesus gives us to do through Him) are our response to God’s grace in our souls. Galatians calls it “Faith working through love.”

I disagree; you can lose your salvation by your bad works, sinning, etc; that’s not grace.

 

[benedictus2]

Christ found me and he led me to a New Testament bible believing Baptist Church.
.

Are you 100% sure it was Christ who found you?

Now why would The Holy Spirit lead you away from Christ’s one true church?

 

[maurin]

Well if the word of God tricked me than I’m glad to be tricked.

no, not the Word of God that tricked you. that would be oxymoronic.

By the way the voice of the True Shepherd is found in the pages of a book

book, chapter, verse? Because the Scripture tells us it is the Church, not the Book which is the pillar and ground of Truth.

not in some golden temple full of idols.

agreed, especially the self-aggrandizing temples built by man for man on the cornerstones of Luther, Calvin and Zwingli.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I disagree; you can lose your salvation by your bad works, sinning, etc; that’s not grace.

Nope, that’s me telling God I don’t need Him telling me what to do and I can do whatever is right in my own eyes, and never repenting. Grace is what keeps me from doing just that. Grace is what brings me to repentance when I do fail Him, and grace is why God forgives me over and over. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to love or serve Him.

Refresh my memory- are you a 5-point Calvinist? The TULIP variety?