Robert in SD:
And, again, this comment was in direct response to your assertion that the scripture passage you cited supports the notion of OSAS. The text clearly holds no such meaning. That is not my argument from silence. It is simply my pointing out to you that your argument holds no weight.
Heb. 10:26ff is clearly describing such a consequence. Your mental gymnastics in the following paragraphs are a good example of eisegesis.
What you are doing is assuming the truth of OSAS, then construing this passage to support your belief. In essence, to support your doctrine you conclude that the ones expressly sanctified by the blood of Christ were never really justified by their faith. That is contrary to the plain meaning of the text.
We both have presuppositions concerning whether or not a person justified by God can lose his salvation; however, as I said earlier, your presuppositions are based upon inference, mine are based upon clear statements—those who are justified by the Father, and given to Christ
will never perish (Jn 10:28ff).
Robert in SD:
I’m sorry, but your interpretation is clearly reading OSAS into these passages which, for the first 1500 years of Christianity were understood as rendering the loss of faith a reality for the professing Christian.
When did the 1500 years begin; what I read in the writings of the apostles is that those God justified
He also glorified.
What you say doesn’t align with what the apostles say.
Robert in SD:
In Hebrews, these are the same persons who the author describes as already having undergone hardship and persecution. He is exhorting them not to fall away. But if they never were never “saved” then how could they fall away from what they never were; and if they cannot fall away because they were OSAS, why make the exhortation to endure? Your argument makes no sense.
And, as you say, if some of them will later find out (much to their chagrin, I’m sure) that they were never “really saved” then what of their present assurance that you say they received?
In other words, if OSAS is “true” then the letter to the Hebrews was practically a meaningless act because saved Christians would not need to be exhorted to endure; while false Christians would not have heeded the message anyway. And in the end only the “True” Christians would have their “assurance” realized. Doesn’t sound like much of an assurance at all.
The writers of scripture never address those to whom they are writing as
”to you who believe, and all of you false professors among them.” But they address those to whom they are writing as though each one were indeed saved.
The Catholic believes that he as a “moral assurance” of salvation, and that he
has been saved, is presently being saved, and hopefully, will be finally saved in the future.
Doesn’t your priest in his sermons and homilies exhort you to endurance, in spite of your “moral assurance???”
Exhortation to Christian living is proper, as the sheep, at times, have the tendency to forget
who they are in Christ, and they may fall into sin; however,
because of grace, sin doesn’t unsave anyone.
Again, what you’re doing is
inferring the loss of salvation on the basis of exhortation.
Robert in SD:
You’re going with John Calvin, not St. John the Apostle. In St. John’s Gospel Jesus had this to say, inter alia:
And you’re going with your magisterium, who teach that John 15 is about salvation, rather than about bearing fruit—again you infer a loss of salvation from a discussion on fruit bearing.
That same apostle recorded other straight-forward and clear words, spoken by the same Jesus earlier,
”I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.
Robert in SD:
I prefer - by the grace of Jesus Christ - to keep the commandments and abide in Him, living in joyful hope for the coming of the Lord, my Savior.
As do I. :tiphat:
Robert in SD:
No. It is not. You are speaking of the LOSS of salvation by act of free will. Salvation is GAINED by grace alone, through Christ alone. You have been around long enough to know that the Catholic doctrine on justification is not works based. Just because one can LOSE salvation by rejecting God’s love by an act of free will, that does not make to converse true.
Assumes, without proof, that a justified person can, and will renounce his justification.
Robert in SD:
I’ll go with Christ, the Apostles, and His Apostolic Church.
As will I. :tiphat:
